Leaving Neverland

[+ pitman]

This just premiered at Sundance and will be on HBO in the spring. Can't wait to see it.

 

Michael Jackson doc Leaving Neverland is 'disturbing and devastating'

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/newsbeat-47013732

[+ quoththeraven]

Michael Jackson is someone else I sideeyed. Irrespective of the verdict in the criminal trial, I believe he molested young boys. While he wasn't the kind of arrogant asshole Bill Cosby, Harvey Weinstein, Bryan Singer and Kevin Spacey are, his actions still did damage. The fact that his emotionally and physically abusive dad messed him up and ensured he didn't have a proper childhood is a causative factor, not an excuse.

[Kenny]

“Leaving Neverland” is finally here, Part I on HBO tonight, Part II tomorrow night. (Both parts are streaming today.) It’s the testimonial story of James Safechuck and Wade Robson, who as children were sexually assaulted for years by superstar pedophile Michael Jackson.

 

I’m looking forward to seeing the documentary with a mix of eagerness and trepidation. It’s a very important moment for a hugely significant subject.

 

https://www.hbo.com/documentaries/leaving-neverland

[+ WilliamM]

 

I’m looking forward to seeing the documentary with a mix of eagerness and trepidation. It’s a very important moment for a hugely significant subject.

 

Completely agree that it is a huge significant subject about sexual abused of young children. But, it directly concerns celebraties like Kevin Spacey, James Levine and many others.

 

I have read many of the articles about the special today. Going to a film tonight was an option until I realized snow begins here at 3pm today.

[+ E.T.Bass]

I'm glad I read the Slate article after watching Part I. I look forward to Part 2 to help make more sense of what happened to all these boys, and especially the two that were interviewed in the documentary, in particular why these 2 victims and their families originally denied there was abuse.

 

“Leaving Neverland” is finally here, Part I on HBO tonight, Part II tomorrow night. (Both parts are streaming today.) It’s the testimonial story of James Safechuck and Wade Robson, who as children were sexually assaulted for years by superstar pedophile Michael Jackson.

 

I’m looking forward to seeing the documentary with a mix of eagerness and trepidation. It’s a very important moment for a hugely significant subject.

 

https://www.hbo.com/documentaries/leaving-neverland

 

I agree, the subject is important. I found it difficult hearing how these boys, as young as 7, experienced sexual abuse. A difficult subject.

Edited March 4, 2019 by E.T.Bass

[+ WilliamM]

Suprise

 

The Jackson family response--

 

It is all lies.

[Kenny]

Suprise

 

The Jackson family response--

 

It is all lies.

“It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it.” — Upton Sinclair

 

The Jacksons are going down. The two men’s graphic descriptions, made during separate and uncoordinated interviews, are nearly identical — which makes them even more believable.

[+ quoththeraven]

“It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it.” — Upton Sinclair

 

The Jacksons are going down. The two men’s graphic descriptions, made during separate and uncoordinated interviews, are nearly identical — which makes them even more believable.

And they're substantially similar to the testimony of the boys who sued civilly and Jackson settled with and the one whose accusations ended in an acquittal.

 

Jackson admitted sleeping with children. Apparently no one disputes that he gave one interviewee (I forget which one) an expensive ring, which the recipient has said Jackson characterized as a symbol of their relationship. It's undisputed that as his "friends" aged he dropped them for younger boys. Occam's razor says the simplest, most obvious and most likely hypothesis should be the first one considered. If it looks like child molestation, walks like it and talks like it, why accept innocent explanations? There is absolutely no good reason other than abuse for a grown man to have sleepovers with underage boys who aren't his relatives.

 

For more, see https://www.vulture.com/amp/2019/03/michael-jackson-music-leaving-neverland-legacy.html?__twitter_impression=true. Also I was wrong; behind the scenes Jackson was every bit as manipulative as Weinstein, et al.

 

Also when will there be a reckoning for Bryan Singer, who was powerful enough to get Esquire not to run the piece that The Atlantic then agreed to run?

 

https://www.cjr.org/the_feature/esquire-bryan-singer-the-atlantic.php

[Kenny]

And they're substantially similar to the testimony of the boys who sued civilly and Jackson settled with and the one whose accusations ended in an acquittal.

 

Jackson admitted sleeping with children. Apparently no one disputes that he gave one interviewee (I forget which one) an expensive ring, which the recipient has said Jackson characterized as a symbol of their relationship. It's undisputed that as his "friends" aged he dropped them for younger boys. Occam's razor says the simplest, most obvious and most likely hypothesis should be the first one considered. If it looks like child molestation, walks like it and talks like it, why accept innocent explanations? There is absolutely no good reason other than abuse for a grown man to have sleepovers with underage boys who aren't his relatives.

 

For more, see https://www.vulture.com/amp/2019/03/michael-jackson-music-leaving-neverland-legacy.html?__twitter_impression=true. Also I was wrong; behind the scenes Jackson was every bit as manipulative as Weinstein, et al.

 

Also when will there be a reckoning for Bryan Singer, who was powerful enough to get Esquire not to run the piece that The Atlantic then agreed to run?

 

https://www.cjr.org/the_feature/esquire-bryan-singer-the-atlantic.php

All true. The degree of detail in the testimony of Wade and Jimmy, often shocking, is also way beyond anything that could be fabricated for a false smear.

 

The diamond jewelry thing is also discussed. When Jimmy opens the jewelry box and puts a child-size ring on his finger, too small to go beyond the first knuckle, his voice cracks. A horrifying moment.

[+ E.T.Bass]

Slate referred to the mothers' "willful stupidity", or worse that they seemed to be pimping out their little boys to MJ, in some cases driving them over there in the middle of the night to climb into bed with him. But as Oprah mentioned last night, his superstar status was a factor in the mothers' failed thinking. I wasn't able to finish Oprah's segment but I will tonight. She adds an important piece and helps raise credibility to the documentary.

Edited March 5, 2019 by E.T.Bass

[Kenny]

But as Oprah mentioned last night, his superstar status was a factor in the mothers' failed thinking.

As someone else said: “And when you're a star they let you do it. You can do anything ... Grab them by the pussy. You can do anything."

 

I haven’t yet watched the Oprah special, but she would have done a great service if she mentioned Trump’s tape as a shining example of the celebrity dynamic. I’m doubtful that she did, though...

[TruthBTold]

Slate referred to the mothers' "willful stupidity", or worse that they seemed to be pimping out their little boys to MJ, in some cases driving them over there in the middle of the night to climb into bed with him. But as Oprah mentioned last night, his superstar status was a factor in the mothers' failed thinking. I wasn't able to finish Oprah's segment but I will tonight. She adds an important piece and helps raise credibility to the documentary.

 

It is an extremely sad and powerful documentary. I thought that the maker of the documentary handled the subject and was able to interview the two boys (now men) in a very tactful way. Both the documentary and the Oprah program that followed were extremely informative about Jackson's method of seduction of both the boys and their parents/families. It made me much more understanding about how a victim gets sucked into offering himself little by little to the pedophile and also why the victim fails for so long to reveal what is or has gone on. I found it very sickening and (I hate to say this) fascinating. I also found the difference in the reactions of the mothers when they do find out what was done to their children to be interesting. I found that one was extremely remorseful that she disregarded the obvious signs that her child was being abused and understood that her son's life was ruined because of her (willful?) disregard. On the other hand the second mother seemed not to be able to even get to a place where she could fathom that she had a very real part in the traumatization of her son. Watch it if you get a chance and watch the Oprah piece that follows.

Edited March 19, 2019 by TruthBTold

[Beancounter]

I watched both parts one and two. This was an extremely disturbing and poignant documentary for me. Mr. Jackson exhibited well-documented predatory behavior. He’s where he belongs now....dead. Good riddance!

[+ E.T.Bass]

It is an extremely sad and powerful documentary. I thought that the maker of the documentary handled the subject and was able to interview the two boys (now men) in a very tactful way. Both the documentary and the Oprah program that followed was extremely informative about Jackson's method of seduction of both the boys and their parents/families. It made me much more understanding about how a victim gets sucked into offering himself little by little to the pedophile and also why the victim fails for so long to reveal what is or has gone on. I found it very sickening and (I hate to say this) fascinating. I also found the difference in the reactions of the mothers when they do find out what was done to their children to be interesting. I found that one was beyond remorseful that she disregarded the obvious signs that her child was being abused and understood that her son's life was ruined because of her (willful?). On the other hand the second mother seemed not to be able to even get to a place where she could fathom that she had a very real part in the traumatization of her son. Watch it if you get a chance and watch the Oprah piece that follows.

I watched the rest of the Oprah segment. She is truly learned and helpful on the subject. I also listened to a couple of scholars on NPR this evening, one from UC Davis and one from University of Boston medical school, discussing how boys such as these two would wait until they were grown men to admit the facts. One discussed how predators have a "nose" for at-risk youngsters, kids that are more apt to be hungry for affection, and so are more easily groomed for abuse.

[+ easygoingpal]

I watched the rest of the Oprah segment. She is truly learned and helpful on the subject. I also listened to a couple of scholars on NPR this evening, one from UC Davis and one from University of Boston medical school, discussing how boys such as these two would wait until they were grown men to admit the facts. One discussed how predators have a "nose" for at-risk youngsters, kids that are more apt to be hungry for affection, and so are more easily groomed for abuse.

I watched the first part on Sunday and the second part last night. It was a very powerful documentaty and very well done. The director mentioned that he focused on the lives of the two men to see things from their perspective. There are many men who have lived through similar situations and this documentary showed facts as told by the two men. They were being loved when they were seeking love, they were told not to say anything because it would impact negatively on their lives... Mix love and fear of loosing that cherished love and is understandable to see that it would be well into manhood that the men are still in their path of recovery. Forgiving themselves for letting it happen as they look back is also very difficult for their minds. Forgiving the parents that should have protect them can also take a long path; it just goes to show how even us as adults can be lured into a fantasy world where kind words told to us during vulnerable moments would have us do things that we later regret. It was powerful to hear feedback from recognizable people in the audience like actor Anthony Edwards and the ex-football player sitting next to him. Peeling the layers that you put there to protect your sanity over the years may take a long time to remove in the path to recovery.

[+ E.T.Bass]

I watched the first part on Sunday and the second part last night. It was a very powerful documentaty and very well done. The director mentioned that he focused on the lives of the two men to see things from their perspective. There are many men who have lived through similar situations and this documentary showed facts as told by the two men. They were being loved when they were seeking love, they were told not to say anything because it would impact negatively on their lives... Mix love and fear of loosing that cherished love and is understandable to see that it would be well into manhood that the men are still in their path of recovery. Forgiving themselves for letting it happen as they look back is also very difficult for their minds. Forgiving the parents that should have protect them can also take a long path; it just goes to show how even us as adults can be lured into a fantasy world where kind words told to us during vulnerable moments would have us do things that we later regret. It was powerful to hear feedback from recognizable people in the audience like actor Anthony Edwards and the ex-football player sitting next to him. Peeling the layers that you put there to protect your sanity over the years may take a long time to remove in the path to recovery.

 

How Oprah touched on the forgiveness was somewhat of a healing moment after listening to all the bad stuff, and clearly is part of their own healing: forgiving their parents, forgiving MJ, forgiving themselves.

[TruthBTold]

Just something that came up in the British press dated today. Not sure if it was shown in the American press earlier.

 

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/latoya-jackson-claimed-brother-michael-paedophile-resurfaced-1990s-interview-161430114.html

[+ easygoingpal]

Just something that came up in the British press dated today. Not sure if it was shown in the American press earlier.

 

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/latoya-jackson-claimed-brother-michael-paedophile-resurfaced-1990s-interview-161430114.html

Interesting that her words back then rang true as those children (at least the two that were in the documentary) now adults are testifying that they have been scarred for a great part of their lives and are almost recovered or still on a path to recovery.

[bostonman]

One of the shocks for me was one of the men - I believe this was Wade on the Oprah follow-up - was saying how he just never saw this as sexual abuse when it was happening.

 

I guess what we tend to think is that boys (and girls, for that matter) who go through this do know exactly what's going on, it's just that they're too afraid, or full of guilt/shame/etc, to be able to take action and tell someone, or otherwise get out of it. Or, even if they're somehow drawn to the sex, to know on some very strong level that it's wrong. Or even to just use the stardom as an excuse for not topping it, etc.

 

But to hear him say that he didn't see it that way at the time - that he didn't understand that it was abuse - that was unexpected.

 

Though now it does make me wonder how often that's the case. How many youths in this situation mistake the abuse for real love, with no idea that anything is wrong about it, except perhaps for the proviso that it all be kept incredibly secret? Scary.

[+ easygoingpal]

One of the shocks for me was one of the men - I believe this was Wade on the Oprah follow-up - was saying how he just never saw this as sexual abuse when it was happening.

 

This is the way I see it: It's the point of reference... When you are 7 years old and have not amassed a ton of understanding of what is considered sexual abuse, I believe the brain does not equate those acts as sexual abuse.

 

I guess what we tend to think is that boys (and girls, for that matter) who go through this do know exactly what's going on, it's just that they're too afraid, or full of guilt/shame/etc, to be able to take action and tell someone, or otherwise get out of it. Or, even if they're somehow drawn to the sex, to know on some very strong level that it's wrong. Or even to just use the stardom as an excuse for not topping it, etc.

 

Your statement rings true... At that age, I believe, we all know what's considered to be right or wrong, and I believe Wade knew that what they were doing was wrong as it was always done in secret and not in the open.

 

But to hear him say that he didn't see it that way at the time - that he didn't understand that it was abuse - that was unexpected.

 

As adults, with all the years of experience of what we have heard, read, and seen, we have a good understanding of the sexual abuse concept. As a 7 year old child, without that understanding, it's hard to see it as abuse, when you can bring other feelings to the front of the brain and mask it with it was lovely, it was sweet, it was fulfilling...

 

Though now it does make me wonder how often that's the case. How many youths in this situation mistake the abuse for real love, with no idea that anything is wrong about it, except perhaps for the proviso that it all be kept incredibly secret? Scary.

 

I believe the audience was mostly filled with survivors of sexual abuse... Another subject that has been on the news lately is the number of priests that abused children for years and rarely you had that on the news because there were too many factors suppressing the truth...

 

Well, those are my two cents...

[+ quoththeraven]

An article about coming to terms with abuse in light of Leaving Neverland and receiving compensation from a Canadian quasi-governmental fund as a result of abuse the author experienced that has useful things to day about what compensation can and can't do and why seeking compensation should not be viewed as proof that someone has bad motives:

 

Leaving Neverland helped me understand my abuse by delicately exposing the exact same cycles and habits and systemic failures that I had endured myself. But it also helped me understand what society likely thinks of what happened to me, in part via its omissions. As Christina Cauterucci eloquently explained, one thing Leaving Neverland ignores is Robson and Safechuck’s repeated attempts to receive financial compensation for what they endured. This isn’t surprising: Victims’ desire for capital as compensation is often weaponized against them, so it makes sense that it was left out of this sympathetic portrait. But, as Cauterucci writes, “there are more reasons than money to go public with sexual abuse allegations against a world-famous man, and more reasons than greed to seek monetary compensation, considering that Jackson’s alleged serial abuse was only made possible through the trappings of fame and wealth.”

 

I have some problems with the check I received. I don’t know if money makes anything better. But often money is the only kind of compensation our culture can offer, and the desire to get that can’t be seen as a crack in a narrative or a stain. The arguments against taking settlement money, the arguments that people sue just for the money, are painfully naive about how our capitalist culture works, anyway. Money, and the status and power that come along with it, is often already part of the equation. It can be used to entice victims, as we see with Jackson, and it can serve as a bulwark against their claims. It is why R. Kelly was still invited to mentor music classes after his sex tape was released. It is the entire post-prison career of Jeffrey Epstein. And it is my grandmother, difficult and striving, sending me to a fancy boarding school because she thinks it will make my path in life easier.

 

I have spent decades trying to get some kind of justice. To have my abuser admit that he had done what we both know he did. The check that I got for what happened to me represents decades of work, trying to figure out some idea of justice. It is a literal settlement. I would prefer for the person who touched me to say out loud, in public, I liked to fuck 12- to 14-year-old boys, and I fucked a lot of 12- to 14-year-old boys, and I shouldn’t have tried to act on that desire. I worry that my check precludes true reconciliation, by perpetuating this kind of cold, mechanical idea that trauma can be alleviated via actuarial math. I am concerned that it prevents true reconciliation—separating justice from the social contract, from due process, and from the rule of law.

 

But what I got was a check. The check is a significant number, which will do some significant good. It will get me out of debt, will pay for my therapist for a year. It still refuses to demand any responsibility from the teacher. Money is justice, but in a limited way, one that precludes personal responsibility. In a world where everything has a price, though, sometimes we have to settle for what we can get.

 

https://slate.com/human-interest/2019/03/leaving-neverland-helped-me-understand-my-childhood-abuse.amp?__twitter_impression=true

[tchm]

This just premiered at Sundance and will be on HBO in the spring. Can't wait to see it.

 

Michael Jackson doc Leaving Neverland is 'disturbing and devastating'

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/newsbeat-47013732

 

Just happened on this while searching for something to watch. It just sucked me in and was riveted all the way through. By the end of this 4-hour doc, I was angry, sad, devastated, enlightened, frustrated, confused and all other feelings and nuances in the emotional spectrum. I've always been on the fence regarding MJ's guilt, but this convinced me beyond the shadow of a doubt he molested those boys. And when one of the boy's mothers, upon learning of MJ's death, exclaimed "I'm glad he's dead. He can no longer abuse other boys!," I shared in her jubilation. It's also a cautionary piece on how wealth and celebrity can be instruments of deceit and manipulation by those who posses them, and cloud and corrupt the moral judgment of those who succumb to them. With the Epstein case in the headlines, this doc becomes more timely and relevant.

[TruthBTold]

Just happened on this while searching for something to watch. It just sucked me in and was riveted all the way through. By the end of this 4-hour doc, I was angry, sad, devastated, enlightened, frustrated, confused and all other feelings and nuances in the emotional spectrum. I've always been on the fence regarding MJ's guilt, but this convinced me beyond the shadow of a doubt he molested those boys. And when one of the boy's mothers, upon learning of MJ's death, exclaimed "I'm glad he's dead. He can no longer abuse other boys!," I shared in her jubilation. It's also a cautionary piece on how wealth and celebrity can be instruments of deceit and manipulation by those who posses them, and cloud and corrupt the moral judgment of those who succumb to them. With the Epstein case in the headlines, this doc becomes more timely and relevant.

 

I agree and makes it so much easier for those of similar wealth, celebrity, and notoriety to be able to do the same thing and get away with it. It is a never ending cycle that sometimes is not found about until the victims are too old to realize that they are being victimized unfortunately because the very things that entice them to their victimization they enjoy.

[+ E.T.Bass]

Just happened on this while searching for something to watch. It just sucked me in and was riveted all the way through. By the end of this 4-hour doc, I was angry, sad, devastated, enlightened, frustrated, confused and all other feelings and nuances in the emotional spectrum. I've always been on the fence regarding MJ's guilt, but this convinced me beyond the shadow of a doubt he molested those boys. And when one of the boy's mothers, upon learning of MJ's death, exclaimed "I'm glad he's dead. He can no longer abuse other boys!," I shared in her jubilation. It's also a cautionary piece on how wealth and celebrity can be instruments of deceit and manipulation by those who posses them, and cloud and corrupt the moral judgment of those who succumb to them. With the Epstein case in the headlines, this doc becomes more timely and relevant.

He had the classic traits, like dwelling on all the great things he did for the welfare of children.

The movie brought it into the open, everything MJ and many others always denied.

[tchm]

He had the classic traits, like dwelling on all the great things he did for the welfare of children.

The movie brought it into the open, everything MJ and many others always denied.

 

Watching all the film footage now, it's so noticeable how MJ always has a young boy on his side wherever he goes. Openly onstage, in hotel lobbies and balconies, in the car, on the street, and rarely with a girl. It's remarkable how that was barely questioned or raised a red flag back then. Fans and the media just bought in to the idea that it's just part of a harmless Peter Pan complex - that he could better relate with young boys than adults. Again the bright light of wealth and celebrity blinded everybody to the monster hiding behind that childlike facade.