longtime lurker

Ran across this essay and thought it might spark a discussion or provide food for thought. Usual disclaimer: no one person's experience is representative of everyone else, etc., but it's also probably not completely unique.
 
https://intomore.com/you/The-Girl-I-Loved-While-In-The-Closet/602f0e52cee74997

This reminds me of an old sitcom joke used often in the 1970s. The husband asks the wife "what's the first thing we are going to do on our vacation?" She responds "Lose our travelers checks."
 
Put your keys in a bag with all of your necessities: water bottle, bar of soap, suntan lotion and any other "protection" in case you get lucky doing more than applying lotion to others. Then hope for the best. Or invest in one of those vehicles you just key numbers in to unlock.
 
At the "clothing optional" beaches, nobody walks around with their keys although some sport fancy rings in strategic places.

Did a little photoshoot in the back stairwell of my building.
 

Ha ha! This video is tailor made for you. Watch with caution...
 

Ha ha! This video is tailor made for you. Watch with caution...
 

I agree with virtually everything you stated, but the wording here can be given added context.
 
I saw a documentary once made in the UK (can't remember the title) when one guy stated that he never cared about the gay marriage issue. He was fine with multiple partners. Yet he understood that it was important to have equal rights and, thus, have an option not granted before in his life time.
 
However monogamy is not a cut and dry thing. Yes, some of it is institutionalized: regardless of how nebulous many biblical passages are (a.k.a. men mentioned with multiple wives and multiple women for "recreation"), conservative religious heterosexuals make full time commitment to partnerships that don't allow others intimately other than the two involved, often "for the sake of the children" (which we all know is silly), into a big deal. However there are many people both gay and "straight" that want the comfort of a longtime partner. Call it a need for stability? Maybe a romantic notion of having a significant other who will complete one's self? Also the older you get, the lonelier you get. When not successful seeking that one night stand, you do want somebody to fall back on. Also sex is best when your partner knows you better on an intellectual and emotional level.
 
There are many, many of both "orientations" who are less interested in "getting to know you" than just a "blow and go", an instant "release". That is fine. To each their own. Yet not everybody wants to maintain their independence and keep a wall up forever.
 
A lot of homophobia, internalized or whatever, still stems from your outside environment's tolerance for anybody different than other members of your "pack". Many (but not all) of the most outspoken leaders of Gay Liberation in the 1970s were blessed by friends, if not families, who supported them being whatever they wanted to be. Many of the communities that begat these movements were in city centers like San Francisco and Greenwich Village, NYC. (Another great vintage documentary from 1970 involved an interview with two transgenders saying that, at least in the ghetto where they lived in San Francisco, they didn't have to worry about being shot. You can watch it here: https://archive.org/details/casftm_000001)
 
Having confidence because those around you have confidence in you being yourself makes a HUGE difference. Sadly I grew up with a family with intense hatred towards all gays and lesbians. My mother was the worst, but she is deceased and, while it is not good to dwell on those who no longer have control over you, the damage is already done and there are scars that will never heal.
 
I recently saw another movie... yeah, I am going to reference some OLD stuff here. It was a romantic gay drama called A VERY NATURAL THING, directed by Christopher Larkin and you can find a grainy copy on YouTube (possibly with adult verification since there are some brief nude scenes). What I found interesting about it is that the year it was filmed, 1973, was post-Stonewall with marches getting bigger in the streets and new confidence that never existed before, but also no AIDS epidemic yet either and Anita Bryant hadn't gotten started (not that many found her especially scary to begin with, provided there were enough pies to throw) and the main character teaches high school students in NYC. Director Larkin's goal was to create a gay version of LOVE STORY with men questioning: Do I want a long term partner or is this something that has been forced on me by "traditional hetero-normal society"?
 
The character of David was initially a monk, being Catholic and questioning his sexuality, then accepts who he is and no longer thinks God is "mad at me". He starts exploring what he enjoys physically. He has a good friend whom he isn't sexual with, but has great talks with in figuring out who he is. Then he finds a guy he hopes is Mister Right, but this guy clearly doesn't want "marriage". (There is a key scene of the two attending a heterosexual wedding in a church.) They try to stay together by being more "open" and attend a group orgy on Fire Island, but neither is comfortable with the situation. Many reading here would have no issues there, but you have to understand that this character was, after all, a celibate monk once and is still green behind the ears with the whole "comfort with strangers" routine. He is also awkward in his first trip to a bath house after his emotional break up. Later he becomes so cynical that a new guy he meets who wants the same thing he originally did (a long-term commitment) has to convince him to stop trying to find "the perfect" monogamous relationship and just accept things as they come. In short, David got too caught up in his mind over analyzing what he wanted.
 
I don't know. I guess there is no point to this elephantine post. Except we all want different things and I only HALF agree that monogamy is a reflection of homophobia. With that said, there is a pride parade shown in that movie where one guy says he is now happy he can have any partners he wants along with "as many as I want" without being judged.

Yes, I understood. It just gave me an excuse to talk about obscure movies on this thread.

I was just giving an example, I do not want to kidnap the thread about homophobia with a conversation about gay marriage.
Just quickly, I did not mean that monogamia is always homophobic. I gave the specific context of gay politics. Back to homophobia now.

I have a confession to make. I love straight guys. Not to have sex with or chase after. Not neanderthal, homophobic redneck straight guys, but sensitive, aware 21st-century straight guys to have as friends. One of the ways in which internalized homophobia manifested for me is that, in the presence of straight guys, I always felt less than, not truly a man. And I was so used to feeling this way, that I wasn't even aware of it. When I became aware of it I was dumbfounded and I challenged myself to step out and claim my masculinity. One of the benefits of having done this is that I have realized that I'm as much a man as any straight guy, and I'm just as entitled to a place at the table, just as entitled to my slice of the pie. I can have relationships of all sorts with straight guys without always checking to see if I measure up or trying to conceal frailties or weaknesses and I generally like being around them.
 
It's a curious turn my life has taken in the last few years, and I'm not always comfortable with it. I wonder if I haven't gone a bit too far, but I like it. I did form a close friendship with gay man just this year. I hired him to coach me when I was prepping for a competition, and we worked together several times a week for several months. The relationship became very close and intimate and I'm delighted to have him in my life.

After our first two weeks together, my partner and I were never sexually monogamous, but most of the time we were committed to an emotionally monogamous relationship. My best friend could never understand that, and couldn't believe that was a "real" marriage; he was serially monogamous with a half dozen men, and a complete slut the rest of the time.

You're discussion of monogamy brought up something that happened recently. I was back in VA visiting my family. My parents have been divorced since I was 5, my mom and older sister live just outside Richmond, while my dad still lives in the Appalachian Mountains, where I grew up, and he's very conservative, where as the rest of us are quite liberal. I was at the dinner table talking about how Steve (my partner for 7 years) and I have been discussing getting married in the next few years. My dad said he was surprised. I asked him why and he said that he didn't think that we were committed to each other, in the sense of monogamy (I had mentioned before that we have an open relationship). I explained that for us emotional commitment is what a relationship is about, we are deeply committed to one another but that doesn't mean that we control what one another can do with their bodies.

I agree with virtually everything you stated, but the wording here can be given added context.
 
I saw a documentary once made in the UK (can't remember the title) when one guy stated that he never cared about the gay marriage issue. He was fine with multiple partners. Yet he understood that it was important to have equal rights and, thus, have an option not granted before in his life time.
 
However monogamy is not a cut and dry thing. Yes, some of it is institutionalized: regardless of how nebulous many biblical passages are (a.k.a. men mentioned with multiple wives and multiple women for "recreation"), conservative religious heterosexuals make full time commitment to partnerships that don't allow others intimately other than the two involved, often "for the sake of the children" (which we all know is silly), into a big deal. However there are many people both gay and "straight" that want the comfort of a longtime partner. Call it a need for stability? Maybe a romantic notion of having a significant other who will complete one's self? Also the older you get, the lonelier you get. When not successful seeking that one night stand, you do want somebody to fall back on. Also sex is best when your partner knows you better on an intellectual and emotional level.
 
There are many, many of both "orientations" who are less interested in "getting to know you" than just a "blow and go", an instant "release". That is fine. To each their own. Yet not everybody wants to maintain their independence and keep a wall up forever.
 
A lot of homophobia, internalized or whatever, still stems from your outside environment's tolerance for anybody different than other members of your "pack". Many (but not all) of the most outspoken leaders of Gay Liberation in the 1970s were blessed by friends, if not families, who supported them being whatever they wanted to be. Many of the communities that begat these movements were in city centers like San Francisco and Greenwich Village, NYC. (Another great vintage documentary from 1970 involved an interview with two transgenders saying that, at least in the ghetto where they lived in San Francisco, they didn't have to worry about being shot. You can watch it here: https://archive.org/details/casftm_000001)
 
Having confidence because those around you have confidence in you being yourself makes a HUGE difference. Sadly I grew up with a family with intense hatred towards all gays and lesbians. My mother was the worst, but she is deceased and, while it is not good to dwell on those who no longer have control over you, the damage is already done and there are scars that will never heal.
 
I recently saw another movie... yeah, I am going to reference some OLD stuff here. It was a romantic gay drama called A VERY NATURAL THING, directed by Christopher Larkin and you can find a grainy copy on YouTube (possibly with adult verification since there are some brief nude scenes). What I found interesting about it is that the year it was filmed, 1973, was post-Stonewall with marches getting bigger in the streets and new confidence that never existed before, but also no AIDS epidemic yet either and Anita Bryant hadn't gotten started (not that many found her especially scary to begin with, provided there were enough pies to throw) and the main character teaches high school students in NYC. Director Larkin's goal was to create a gay version of LOVE STORY with men questioning: Do I want a long term partner or is this something that has been forced on me by "traditional hetero-normal society"?
 
The character of David was initially a monk, being Catholic and questioning his sexuality, then accepts who he is and no longer thinks God is "mad at me". He starts exploring what he enjoys physically. He has a good friend whom he isn't sexual with, but has great talks with in figuring out who he is. Then he finds a guy he hopes is Mister Right, but this guy clearly doesn't want "marriage". (There is a key scene of the two attending a heterosexual wedding in a church.) They try to stay together by being more "open" and attend a group orgy on Fire Island, but neither is comfortable with the situation. Many reading here would have no issues there, but you have to understand that this character was, after all, a celibate monk once and is still green behind the ears with the whole "comfort with strangers" routine. He is also awkward in his first trip to a bath house after his emotional break up. Later he becomes so cynical that a new guy he meets who wants the same thing he originally did (a long-term commitment) has to convince him to stop trying to find "the perfect" monogamous relationship and just accept things as they come. In short, David got too caught up in his mind over analyzing what he wanted.
 
I don't know. I guess there is no point to this elephantine post. Except we all want different things and I only HALF agree that monogamy is a reflection of homophobia. With that said, there is a pride parade shown in that movie where one guy says he is now happy he can have any partners he wants along with "as many as I want" without being judged.

Dear Josh, I was not trying to imposed my issues to anyone else, just sharing my opinion. If you think you are homophobia free, I do not know you so I cannot contradict you. However, I would be thrilled to meet you, because you would be the first one I have ever met. You must be very special.
 
Let's make clear that I was paraphrasing @Lance_Navarro in his OP. I am sure he did not mean to pose his question on terms of black and white, homophobic or not al all. I think he is asking whether or not we have homophobic attitudes. I know I do. I know everyone I have met in my life, in the different cultures I have been fortunate to being exposed to, they all do. I am glad I am aware of it, because I am open to be called out and to keep working on it.
 
I think we are soaked by homophobia, so soggy with subconscious patterns, that it is really hard to realize it many times. I think, for instance, all the studies around finding the cause for homosexuality have homophobic roots, as I insinuated in another thread and was not very well taken. I think the whole direction taken by gay identity activism, trying to replicate the heterosexual model of exclusive monogamy, is a reflection of homophobia.
 
I know it is not the more popular opinion, but it is what I honestly think. I am not preaching from the purity pulpit, I recognize my homophobic (and of course racist, misogynystic, etc) attitudes and often I am ashamed of them. But I am proud of the progress I have made and of my willingness to accept it is a never ending task.

I've recently been chatting with a guy that I've seen once as a client (fairly typically appointment) but I've been talking to him about considering Surrogate Partner Therapy, as he could use some therapy and healing from past abuses and abandonment. Many of the feelings and thoughts he has shared demonstrate internalized homophobia, including the feeling that gay men are inherently conniving and wanting to hurt one another.
Ive seen similar comments here on the forum, so I wanted to discuss the topic of internalized homophobia. Comments that generalize how gay men "are" or what they should be, or attempts to shame gay men that don't blend in and conform to "masculine" standards are just a few examples of how internalized homophobia shows itself. Here's a great segment from an article I found, which can be viewed in its entirety HERE.
 
"Internalized homophobia is a concept much more nuanced than it’s simple definition would suggest. It is clear that the word “homophobia” in this context, is misleading – the over simplified idea that it is individual acts of fear and ignorancediverts our attention from the much more pervasive systemic oppression that is at the root of the problem. The hateful and intolerant behavior of those closest to us often has the most profound impact (parents, church community, peers, partners). While they should be held responsible as individuals, the real culprit is an aggressively heterosexist society that is defining what is “normal,” and therefore what is “right” and “wrong,” through laws, policy, culture, education, health care, religion and family life. This systemic oppression is meant to enforce the gender binary, marginalize LGBTQ people, and keep heterosexual people and their relationships in a position of dominance and privilege.
 
When we see that homophobia is a result of a this larger system, we see that it is institutional; that it is impossible to exist outside of it; that the real definition of it is so much more than the dictionary simplicity of “irrational fear of, aversion to, or discrimination against homosexuality or homosexuals;” that the root structure is vast, affecting every aspect of life and culture. All of these factors make dismantling heterosexism extremely complicated, and uprooting internalized homophobia even more so.
 
The awareness of stigma that surrounds homosexuality leads the experience to become an extremely negative one; shame and secrecy, silence and self-awareness, a strong sense of differentness – and of peculiarity – pervades the consciousness.’ (Plumer,1996). The role of secrecy and dishonesty in cases of internalized homophobia, is significant. Some examples include:
 

Denial – ranging from aggressive and hateful behavior to denying yourself the life and love you desire;
Lying to yourself about attraction and sexuality;
The inability to “come out” if you want to, and if you can safely. (see more about “coming out below);
Being selectively “out” (see “coming out” below);
Secret relationships;
Forcing others to keep secrets or remain in the closet;
Lying by omission"

I am still a virgin.
 
I hire escorts for their time and we just chat.

I couldn't have gotten hard, nervously watching for scorpions.

I was even older than you, @Gar1eth. (Not by too much though.) Amusingly my first time mutually touching another guy naked, but not necessarily "going all the way", involved somebody found on Masseurfinder. When I visited his place, he answered the door in his robe: "Just so I have this straight. Am I really going to be the first guy you have ever touched?" After my "yes", he rolled his eyes and grinned "lucky me".
 
I'm not normal though. A combination of childhood abuse (non-sexual though) resulting in me even avoiding doctors touching me, very angry homophobic family members and co-workers, too many years lost caring for a parent with a stroke and being a teen at the height of the AIDS epidemic (and all of the anti-gay sentiment nationwide) all had their impact, although probably the real reason was low esteem that required many years to get over and still hasn't completely.

Normal people "lose it" in their teens and twenties. Yet I finally made up for lost time after I realized it wasn't that big of a deal. Even learned quickly that I was, um, versatile.

It was 2002. I was 41. I had kissed probably less than 10 girls/women in my life. I don’t think I had ever kissed a guy other than a chaste kiss to a relative. I had never French kissed anyone. I had never copped a feel of a breast or a tallywacker. While I was accomplished at masturbating, I was never part of a circle jerk.
 
I had looked at the escort websites for 5 or 6 years, but I didn’t want to be gay (still don’t really. But I’m better). And I thought I would never be brave enough to hire. I thought there was a good chance I was going to die without ever experiencing sex-not die from not having sex-just that I was going to die before I ever became brave enough to have sex. For many of you who first had sex in your teens or twenties, you probably remember being nervous before your 1st time. Well imagine me. I had twenty something more years of being nervous, and knowing that most everyone my age had already had sex. I was like an older and less cute Steve Carrell.
 
Finally I felt like I had to have sex. I talked -or at least hinted-to my psychiatrist at the time that I was thinking of hiring an escort. My recollection is that while he didn’t say go ahead, he gave me tacit approval.
 
 
So I saw that an escort, former porn star whose website that I had looked at for years was coming to Cincinnati-Dallas Taylor.
 
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-pw4eLkzpxcU/UbP4WZEVxaI/AAAAAAAAQZw/EUP-R-L5IfA/s1600/DallasTaylor_AllWorlds_BearNecessities_001.jpg
 
My remembrance is that he was staying at the Best Western Plus. It’s just over the Ohio River from Cincinnati in Covington, Ky. I made an appointment. Initially I made a one hour appointment. Then I called him back and extended it to two hours.
 
When I arrived at the hotel, I tried looking in the parking lot for police vans in case it was a sting. I was also worried when I got to his room because there was another room right next to his. I thought that if it was a sting, they could be listening in from next door.
 
Luckily it wasn’t a sting. I had told him this was my first time. He was probably thinking-great-at my nervousness. But he was very calm and gentle. He first taught me how to kiss. I remember him telling me that I was keeping my lips too firm. Before this I thought the idea of French kissing was gross. Why would I want my tongue in someone else’s mouth or his tongue in mine. I soon found out why I wanted both. I also learned that my ears and neck were an extreme erogenous zones. I totally found the truth in the old saying, “Blow in my ear, and I’ll follow you anywhere.”
 
We showered together. It was great showering with this stocky muscular guy. He wasn’t as pretty as he had been when he was younger. But he was definitely handsome. I also remember thinking he had the largest tallywacker I had ever seen in my life. And even after being a bit more experienced nowadays, his is probably still one of the largest.
 
After we showered we got into bed. He had two beds. I asked him why two. He said one was for work and the other was for him by himself.
 
So after showering together we got into bed. There I was gone down on the first time. That felt incredible. Then he sat on top of me, so I could top him. That was a bit painful. But finally I wasn’t a virgin anymore. I’ll always be grateful to him.
 
Gman

I would have dated him at this age. And then he would never have wandered.

http://78.media.tumblr.com/255433cb1b49d32c5dabfed8f1c3fef7/tumblr_ou5gpb4I2A1rodbqco1_500.gif

This line is so awful in taste and sensitivity (typical 80s), but it is so rapid fire that you can't help but laugh. "All right... girls, I want to present Blanche Devereaux's latest creation!! I took an 84 year old woman and made her look like a 65 year old drag queen. Then I said to myself, 'Blanche, too much rouge'..."

One of the things that annoyed a little me about GG is that, as the show went on, Bea Arthur seemed to adopt Benny's mannerism of putting her hand to her cheek and looking aloof or disinterested when something offputting was said.
 
BTW, was anybody else annoyed at the way the ladies' kids' names & ages always seemed to change?
Dorthy's daughter was played by 30 year old Lisa Jane Persky in the first season (2nd episode), & by
31 year old Deena Freeman in Season 2 (episode 23). So who was Dorothy pregnant with when she had to get married, considering the show began 2 years after the end of her 38 year marriage? Surely not her son Michael, who was 29 in the first season, 23 in the second when he married Rosalind Cash (who was preggers) and 30 in the third season, when he mentioned splitting up with her, but said nothing about the child.
 
Then again, how could I expect Dorothy to be able to keep up with her kids' ages when she didn't even notice that her son had a nose job between his first and second appearance?
http://media.gettyimages.com/photos/family-affair-episode-7-pictured-marilyn-jones-as-bridget-nylund-as-picture-id138386895
 
http://media.gettyimages.com/photos/mixed-blessings-episode-23-pictured-rosalind-cash-as-lorraine-scott-picture-id138357062

BTW... Some Scott Jacoby trivia... he has a piece of LGBTQ history... he played Hal Hobrook's son in the groundbreaking TV movie THAT CERTAIN SUMMER which portrayed Holbrook's relationship with Martin Sheen.
 
Also, his half-brother Billy played Blanche's grandson in the first season's 6th episode. (So Blanche & Dorothy were kinda related!) He was billed as Billy Jacoby, since Scott was well-established in show biz & Billy's mother thought that would help him. He later changed his show biz moniker back to its original Billy Jayne.

Bitch gets edited out, too. But all the jokes about Blanche's sleeping around are morally okay, I guess.
 
P.S. I loved the A VISIT FROM LITTLE SVEN episode. I had a minor crush on Casey Sander ever since he played a self-defense instructor (whose outfit revealed a hairy chest) on VALERIE, which later became THE HOGAN FAMILY. There was a great moment when Sander (as Vince, the instructor) was instructing Edie McClurg... he grabbed her from behind and put her in a bear hug. Instead of struggling and fighting back, she started cooing with lust. He said to her, "Mrs. Poole, you're not struggling." Her response: "Not directly, no..."
 
Of course, McClurg had a classic moment on GOLDEN GIRLS. She played a nurse who'd worked at Shady Pines
when Sophia was 'incarcerated' there. Dorothy hired her to take care of Sophia when she'd hurt her ankles & was confined to a wheelchair. Sophia started teasing Dorothy by calling the nurse 'daughter' and having the nurse call her 'ma.' But it went too far when...

As a physical comic, few people got more laughs and higher ratings than Lucille Ball in "I Love Lucy." I was too young to watch the first few seasons of ILL, but certainly the later seasons. It's possible I did not have a TV when "Golden Girls" was on the air.
 
In real life Jack Benny and Mary Livington lived next door to Lucy and Desi Arnaz for many years on Roxbury Dr. in Beverly Hills.