Jaroslav

@DWnyc, calling it haggling allows you to discount it.

Delta and United also are competing with each other and other airlines with clearly posted prices. And please – give me a more UNregulated market than an illegal one, such as escorting.

@Jamie21, that’s not so much negotiation and stupidity. Asking price can also be an indicator if your negotiating range is a nonstarter as well. As you say, don’t approach a Mercedes dealer with Ford buying expectations. Though if you don’t anything about the market, it makes it tougher.

I’ve been thinking on that too. For some reason, some clients here seem to enjoy paying exorbitant prices for escorts. That’s a function of so-called luxury goods. A Lexus, for example. For a Mercedes. Jewelry. People will brag about much they spent on these things for two reasons: 1) they have acquired the status of Lexus owner by buying a Lexus and 2) they have the means to purchase something at a crazy price without it impacting them negatively and that also puts them in a “tier.” This is all part of the experience. And it’s a class thing as well. “I don’t negotiate with escorts because I don’t have to. I can throw money around like a toddler splashing in the pool.” That’s the nature of luxury goods. And escorts, for some, fall into that category. Now, some escorts want to think they’re a 2024 Mercedes GLE when in fact they’re a 1999 Ford Fiesta! 😆

Absent a public list of what the going rates are for things, people are always going to wonder if they’re being traken advantage of. @DWnychits the nail on the head by pointing this out when he says that providers can communicate with one another more easily than clients. This forum is important for that, but it’s one of the only places I know of it happening, and both the kind of provider and kind of client is skewed in a particular direction here. This forum even doesn’t offer a good opportunity to have a clear picture of what the going rate is for particular times and activities. And I would surmise that having something here that did delineate that, while clearing up a lot of confusion and ridding a lot of headache, would be objected to by both clients and providers precisely because the secrecy of pricing allows for haggling to get the best deal on both sides. Open information would eliminate that satisfaction of having “made out.”

In fact, I suggest, if prices were publicly listed for a sundry activities, negotiation would greatly decrease. The very fact that price is so shrouded in secrecy makes negotiating more likely. A client is going to want to know he’s not overpaying for the same experience someone else got. If client A was quoted $2500 for a weekend, client B doesn’t want to pay $5000. But if “Weekend” isn’t listed publicly, and clients need to ask for a weekend rate, the door opens for negotiating. I would like it if prices were clearly listed so I didn’t have to ask. It really detracts from the experience for me.

That’s actually not true for every escort or every site or every country.

I’ve had providers ask what I’m looking for, tell them, and say, “For that it’s $X.” While it’s nice to think they’re not charging for what happens during that time, they do there was A question here in another thread about bareback rates. That’s not time per se. If it were time, it wouldn’t matter if it were safe only, bareback, cuddling, coffee, pedicure, etc. The fact that bareback and safe only cost different things with some providers means it’s not always just time, and therefore asking and potentially negotiating enters the equation. The second example clearly shows all the potential for negotiation that isn’t tacky but is in fact good practice for both client and provider. What is expected for what? And is there any room to meet at something agreeable? I don’t think discussing that is tacking, nor is coming to some sort of agreement where everyone is happy.

That was in reference to saying someone who hasn’t escorted knows how to escort, not about fees. Further, never did I say it was a rule. I’m saying it happens and we should admit it happens.

I’m still looking for that person, in general, not as far as escorting goes.

What that suggests then is those escorts who have higher than average prices don’t want the work. If pricing is driven by how many clients are wanted, not needed.

@Jamie21, I also think you may have misunderstood my, admittedly verbose, question. Client approaches you for a vacation, say. Asks your rate. You counter, testing the client’s limits: “what are you offering?” Client: “How’s $10,000 for the whole trip, expenses paid, including airfair?” You, having in your mind an unspoken rate of $7000, do you tell him that his offer is too much and take your unspoken rate of $7000 or do you make out well and take $10,000? I know what my weekend budget for a BFE experience is. I don’t negotiate or haggle or whatever. But I still ask a provider what his rate is. If he gives me a rate under my budget, I don’t tell him he undercharged me. I take it as “a deal.” I’d expect a provider who has a threshold but a client willing to pay more wouldn’t say, “Oh, you’re overpaying me.” Even if in other professions the service provider would have to abide by a set price. That’s the strength of negotiating without saying what your budget is. As stated above, a priori v. post hoc knowledge.

@Jamie21,I sometimes wish I were a lawyer! But even more people would despise me than already do! And – people would probably tell me I’m doing that job wrong too. And for what it’s worth, I don’t think less of you for arguing with me. People should be able to disagree without insult. If I did share what I do, you’d probably all laugh. Suffice it to say I totally understand what it’s like to work in the service industry, have people with really no understanding whatsoever about my job tell me over and over how to do it better, but never in a million years be willing to do it and expect me to be responsive to their beck and call 24/7. Oh, and I’m the responsible party when shit hits the fan, but I have to “share the credit” when things go well. That’s “leadership.” And compensation is something that I am not at all adequately or fairly awarded for my level of education or experience. That, I’m told, I knew when I signed up for this work. I get the plight of service workers – sex workers included. Fair compensation for service work is a whole other topic. I just believe in being brutally honest about what we’re about here. I disdain calling something one thing when we mean another. Or pretending it’s this when we all know it’s that. That doesn’t serve anyone. And that’s all I’m really trying to say here. Negotiations and haggling happen. It’s all circumstances. But to say it’s “always” tacky is ridiculous. It’s not. There’s a time for it. People with acumen know that.

The example of the plumber is interesting. Real life – my work recently replaced the entire sprinkler system to be up-to-code. We solicited bids from plumbers to do the work. Three come in to check it out. Three offer bids. We of course accept the bid for the lowest amount. The bid was $30k, to be done in 6 weeks time. As it turns out, because the plumber was done in less than 6 weeks, we were billed less. The bill came in at just over $24k due to rate for time (sound familiar?) The provider of the services didn't charge the $30k because he couldn't ethically and more importantly legally do. Escorting has no such stipulations. And I don't suppose that any providers are going to charge for an hour, get done in 45 minutes, and say "Hey, I'll give you 25% back." For the record, I wouldn't expect them to. But the point is that, that the comparison isn't apt because of that expectation. As to getting shortchanged, real life stories again – I've twice paid two different providers for full weekends when they were both hours late to arriving. The first the guy's flight was late getting in, and he was late by 6 hours. When you're having dinner out and looking forward to some fun beforehand, that cuts into the experience. He didn't do more than apologize and took the whole amount for the weekend. He's since out of the business, but he kept going for a while after me. The second example is a guy who I was paying for a weekend and he was arriving in the afternoon on a Saturday before a wedding he was my date for. His flight was late as well. He also did a piss-poor job communicating with me the day of other than telling me his flight was late. I ended up going to the wedding and reception alone and returning to the hotel to have him arrive there about 11:30 pm...He collected his whole fee as well. In neither instance did I get what I paid for – experientially, temporally, or financially. Pointing out the the shortfall once we were together would’ve made things even worse, but the “right” thing do would’ve been for the escorts to offer me back something for what panned out to be something less than agreed upon. If you’re late to work because of traffic, it’s at I’ll on you, not your employer. And for the record, I would have told the escorts to keep the full amount, but they didn’t even give that opportunity.

@Jamie21, you offered two different approaches to negotiation, but it’s the same thing. The second example simply reads to me more like a person who understands it’s business than looking to appeal to emotion or impulse. It’s strictly financial whereas the first example looks for sympathy or appeals to your lust, which in good business is likely going to fail. That’s the difference I perceive. As @Unicorn pointed out, in other cultures haggling is the norm in most exchanges, goods or services. It’s expected. And it’s not one sided. I’m still curious if in “testing the client’s limits” you’d tell a potential client he overshot the acceptable unspoken rate for an extended time like a weekend or vacation.

Something like that lends itself to a fixed rate much more than a weekend or a trip. The simple fact that it was (inadvertently) said that a provider is testing the client’s limits is evidence that providers do negotiate/haggle given the right circumstances. I’d be interested if a provider could directly say if, when testing a client’s limits, the client should offer more than an acceptable rate, as in offering $10k when the escort would take $7k, if the escort would say, “No. That’s too much. Just $7k.” If he takes the $10k, after testing limits, and thinks he’s made out better for it, he needs to understand he’s just negotiated. And a successful negotiation for him it was, but a negotiation nonetheless. Escorts – would you tell a guy he’s overshot the unspoken rate you had in mind while “testing the client’s limits” and take your original rate?

That’s true for every profession. Not just sex workers. Everyone knows how to do everyone else’s job better. I’m not saying how to do the job. I’m saying be honest in talking about it. If you’re testing limits of the client’s willingness to pay, you’re negotiating. That’s what it is. And it’s fine. Just own that.

@Jamie21, I respect your opinion. You know that part of negotiating/haggling is testing limits. To say it’s something else is disingenuous. He should also say what the rate is when asked if he has a rate. If his rate is £7k and I say £10k, I expect he’ll be magnanimous and honest enough to say his rate is £7k and spare me the £3k. But we know that’s not going to happen.

Apparently it’s “always” tacky. So this entry on your blog is moot. Of course, it’s not. But some want to act like it is. I appreciate accepting a thing for what it is. Some will call it haggling. Some will call it negotiating. It’s a matter of perspective.

I’ve also had providers ask me what I want to pay for a weekend when I ask their rate…That’s negotiation.

Businesspeople negotiate. Haggling is what you call negotiation that you don’t like. Perspective is important. There’s also a difference between services too. Giving a massage is different than escorting on a vacation. One lends itself to a set rate much more than the other.

Nah.

I'm assuming that many of you guys are professionals in your field who deal with money a lot. That's my assumption. And as such, you are in business with potential clients etc. You understand the nature of doing business in a market, especially one where prices aren't fixed. You haggle. It's what businessmen do. That's why it's so crazy to me that in this area some would suggest that the gay escort market is somehow immune to haggling. As some like to say in some instances here, an escort isn't a dentist or a doctor and so should be treated differently. Okay. Well, then since I don't haggle with the dentist, maybe it's okay and even expected to haggle with an escort. Why not? What puts them in the category of dentist for this business transaction? If we're to treat escorts like businessmen, then let's treat them like businessmen. I for myself don't much like haggling, but I'm not going to fault someone who does – particularly in this kind of unregulated market. It might be seen by some as distasteful, but okay. There are loads of things that I see as distasteful, so I just don't do them. Or I say my piece and move on. But to suggest that it violates some rule is ludicrous. There are no rules for the gay escort market. Whatever works. Less rules than in the boardroom. If you can broker the deal, great. If not, better luck next time. It just baffles me that businessmen, or men who live and work in such areas, would think that doing business with a professional escort is somehow exempted from that – especially when we all know there aren't any set rules of the trade precisely because its extra-legal.

I don’t think asking if a 30 minute rate is any different. And asking isn’t haggling. And if you ask a restaurant for a lunch menu, if they’re a decent place, they’re not going to insult your tastes. The point is, options exist. Asking for options is not the problem. How that’s handled is the issue at hand. I don’t see why that’s so difficult to understand.

But some restaurants offer smaller portions for smaller prices. Lots of folks ask for the lunch menu, which is just that. Which, coincidentally, is likely in part reduced because the clientele is fixed for time and have to eat and run.