Zapped

I started having sex with guys in 1974. I lost count by about 1977!

Fascinating. I’m comfortable these days around other guys my age who are comfortable being naked. With younger adult guys, and especially if there are children, especially children without a adult with them, then I’m because they may be. Changing cultural norms. It’s too bad they changed to make everyone uncomfortable.

So how did you get through changing for gym class in school? No showers? And how did you come to finally be in a group shower at 22?

Well, why not beat a dead horse? What else do I have to do this evening? Many words, including "addiction," have multiple valid dictionary definitions. (Skip over my bloviating if you want to jump to the OED definitions of "addiction.") Our psychiatric and other physician friends have established for us that "addiction" as used as a medical diagnosis by psychiatrists and others who use the DSM-5 to guide their work (at least as far as terminology and, very importantly, insurance billing, goes) does not (yet) include compulsive behaviors not involving an external chemical substance. There's no "sex addiction" in the DSM-5, and so it doesn't exist as an officially recognized diagnosis. On the other hand, there are many therapists and psychologists (and I assume at least some psychiatrists) who argue that some behaviors can accurately be called addictions. When it comes to "sex addiction," Dr. Patrick Carnes has taken the lead. I have a therapist friend who is being trained by Carnes and his associates to work with what they agree amongst themselves is "sex addiction." Neither my psychiatrist nor my therapist have had a problem with me identifying as a "sex addict," although that's not the official diagnosis my psychiatrist uses (not could he for insurance purposes, since it's not in the DSM-5). So there's the question of whether these therapists, lay people, etc. are being sloppy when we say "sex addiction," since it's not (yet) a medical term approved by the psychiatric establishment. Wikipedia, while it contains an increasing number of excellent entries, is still subject, for good reason, to skepticism; appeals to its authority are unconvincing to many of us. (While I sympathize with Zachary Prince's dismissal of "academics," I am one, and there's something to be said for checking the validity and authority of one's sources in this age of real and alleged "fake news." I'm also sympathetic to ZP's frustration with the DSM when it comes to trans issues.) What are the valid, officially recognized definitions of "addiction"? Being a semi-retired academic and having free online access, I thought I'd look up the definitions of "addiction" in the Oxford English Dictionary (OED), which is viewed by most scholars as the most authoritative English-language dictionary. The first definition of "addiction" in the OED is: 1. a. The state or condition of being dedicated or devoted to a thing, esp. an activity or occupation; adherence or attachment, esp. of an immoderate or compulsive kind. [examples omitted] 1.b. Immoderate or compulsive consumption of a drug or other substance; spec. a condition characterized by regular or poorly controlled use of a psychoactive substance despite adverse physical, psychological, or social consequences, often with the development of physiological tolerance and withdrawal symptoms; an instance of this. Frequently with to (the addictive substance), or with distinguishing word. [examples omitted] Even the first definition of "addiction" contains multiple definitions! 1.a. is how lay people and many therapists use "addiction" in the context of "sex addiction." This way of using "addiction" as "adherence or attachments, esp. of an immoderate of compulsive kind" goes back, according to the OED, to the sixteenth century. 1532 or so: "An ouermoche addiction to priuate appetites, mixed with to moche heedinesse and obstinacy." So calling compulsive sexual behavior an "addiction" is in keeping with centuries of English-language usage and the first definition in the OED. Lay people who refer to "sex addiction" are speaking accurately--as long as we don't assume we are using the narrower, officially-sanctioned medical diagnostic term. No wonder people get frustrated! This has been fun. By the way, the other OED definitions (examples omitted) are: 2. Predilection, inclination; an instance of this, a ‘penchant’. Obsolete. 3. The binding of a person to another as a servant, adherent, or disciple; (also) the state of being so bound. Frequently with to. Obsolete. 4. Roman Law. The formal delivery of a person or property to an individual, typically in accordance with a judicial decision.

I was briefly talking about this yesterday with a good friend who is 42 (I'm 60). He said he is "uncomfortable" being naked in a locker room. I didn't ask, but I imagine he's young enough that he didn't have to take group showers after gym class. He was disbelieving and then incredulous when I told him nude swimming classes were common in high schools and colleges, at least for men, into the 1970s. We had to take showers starting in junior high (the hell now known as middle school). Most of us got over it and got comfortable with being naked with other guys (and a few were, I'm sure, genuinely traumatized). We internalized that walking around a locker room naked was normal, usual, expected, etc. To cover up was seen as a sign of weakness. You were strange if you walked to or from the shower with a towel wrapped around you. Guys who never had to take group showers? They never got over it. And now there are young men whose dads never got over it. The thing I miss about it is that for most of us, it was comfortable. I may have had body issues, but I wasn't uncomfortable about taking my clothes off in a locker room. I feel sorry for all these guys who are stressed out by changing after a workout.

snapfitness.com — we have one of each where I live. Here, the Anytime Fitness is much more popular. Worth checking both out.

Anytime Fitness has locations all over the country and many non-USA counties as well. You get a fob that lets you into any club, anytime. The facilities vary by franchise ownership group, from decent to fantastic. It’s great when traveling, especially by car. They do tend to be in suburban and small-town areas rather than urban centers; there wasn’t one in Manhattan last time I checked. But driving from the Midwest to NY, I’m rarely more than 45-60 minutes from one, and they are often 19 min. or less from an interstate exit.

As I said in my earlier reply on this topic, I find it not only helpful but, at least in this phase of life, to use the word “addiction” to describe my relationship with erotic videos, porn, and phone sex to myself. And clearly it is very helpful for the many other men in SAA and other 12-step programs for whom the program is working. I also understand that “addiction” is used by some people, particularly medical professionals, very narrowly, in the way that RudyNate has articulated. And some of us use it more loosely, with a broader definition. This includes lay people like you and me, and also some counselors and some clinical psychologists and psychiatrists. In my subjective experience, I experience it as an “addiction,” even though there is no external chemical involved. From an objective, empirical point of view, if there’s not an external chemical involved, it doesn’t fit the narrow, formal definition used by the psychiatric research community. Hope I got that right!

Yup. It’s the enigma of our time.

I had a somewhat “flexible” friend who would “help me out” by letting me watch him jerk off and blow him, and I’d “help him out” with some cash. But we certainly never, ever, ever exchanged sex for money! What, NEVER? Well ... hardly ever.

I don’t have the time to find the link right now, but there is a YMCA in Pennsylvania (I think) that actually banned nudity in the locker rooms. How things have changed. 60 years ago, even 50 years ago, high school and college men’s swim classes were done in the nude. Colleagues told me that until sometime in the 1970s there were sex-segregated swim times for the college pool, and the men swam nude. Now I have at least one younger colleague who wears shorts to shower in the common shower area.

I think this gets at at least part of the core of this cultural shift. When I was in junior high school, I don't think anyone cared enough about the overweight guys and guys with very small penises being made fun of. It was just a life-is-tough sort of thing. If you're fat, if you've got a small dick, you're going to be made fun of, and that's that. We are much more aware of kids being traumatized now. Today's parents are much more likely to demand that their kids not be put in embarrassing situations. As junior high approached, I felt embarrassed about the idea of changing and showering with other guys. A friend a year older than me said I'd get over it and get used to it, and he was right, even though I also had body-image issues (they didn't get better or worse with clothes on or off). Virtually all of us were uncomfortable at first, but we took off our clothes, took a quick shower, and soon it was normal. Now the culture has changed. Most guys under 40 never had to take a naked shower with other guys, so they never got over it and used to it, and are still uncomfortable with it. Add in the hypersensitivity about sexual harassment, and the very real phenomenon of (some) coaches and athletic trainers sexualizing their relationships with students, and the current understanding that there are gay guys everywhere . . . well, today's emphasis on privacy is understandable. I also can sympathize with guys who just want to enjoy the steam room or sauna at a gym without being hit on or watching guys mess around with each other. So I understand why some gyms have closed theirs and why my college didn't replace our old wood saunas when they wore out.

This “paying is pathetic” point of view is sad, isn’t it? There are so many other experiences, from fine dining to massages, where we pay to get what we really want, done expertly, with care and commitment. Why not with erotic connection?

While sex, pornography, and other behavioral issues may not (yet) be classified as disorders in the DSM-V, there certainly are a lot of people in the mental health community, especially those doing clinical work, who accept "sex addiction" and "porn addiction" as, at a minimum, useful working terms. Whether or not they are true addictions depends a lot on how "addiction" is defined. It can be a long path for something to make it into the DSM, especially if there isn't a drug company pushing a medication to treat the condition! It must be difficult to secure funding to do the necessary research to get something like a behavioral pattern classified as an addiction. Meanwhile, I personally have found it very helpful to participate in the Sex Addicts Anonymous program, and very, very helpful to think of certain thought and behavior patterns as something addictive for me. For example, if I start in on porn it leads to phone sex which will take up all time I can make available, with my work and relationship with my husband suffering. And the fantasies get more and more extreme and exhausting. What are fun, recreational sex activities for many guys are something I just can't handle. Saying to myself "I'm an addict" is really useful in keeping myself from starting something that I have found over and over I can't stop. Whether or not this is a true addiction, strictly defined, is a good question. What's true for a lot of people like me is that it works to think of ourselves as addicts, in my case, anyway, knowing I'm using the term somewhat loosely. There are a lot of therapists with "sex addiction" practices, books, articles, etc.

@Zapped, Wow! What an amazing story of focus and perseverance with a good outcome!! Thanks. It's been a lot of work, and it still takes attention and intention. I could easily slip into and be swallowed up by old patterns. One thing that really makes a difference for me is to talk to a friend, or do something for someone, when I notice I'm starting to ruminate.

I was just thinking about this earlier this evening, when I was showering in the otherwise empty locker room at the college where I have taught for over 30 years. Back in the 1980s, there would be both faculty and students changing and showering in the locker room and using the sauna nude. Now, the students have their own locker room with individual shower stalls with curtained changing areas. And the sauna was removed after it gave out from old age and lack of maintainance. During the day, especially at lunchtime, faculty and staff still change and shower together and almost everyone is comfortable with being naked around each other. Sometimes I’m nostalgic for the old days and the sense of community that comes with non-sexual nudity. But in these post-Sandusky, #metoo days, I am relieved that there is rarely a student in the shower area, and I find I’m now uncomfortable when there are high school or younger kids in the locker room when I’m even briefly naked. I have no idea how anything, even just being naked in the shower, might be misinterpreted. Friendly banter sitting naked with athletic students in the sauna? Who knows what someone might make of it. I wouldn’t even want to hang out naked with younger colleagues in the current climate. When I took showers after gym class in middle and high school, it never crossed my mind that a coach or teacher might be interested in me sexually. And I’m sure it was not a concern to my parents. Now, who knows? After Jerry Sandusky, everyone is suspect to some degree or another. Separate from that, while most of us got over being naked around other guys in school and Y locker rooms, or in the service, and soon found it liberating, some didn’t and were traumatized. In the 60s and 70s it was too bad for them. Now it just can’t be done. So generations have now grown up never having had to take showers with others, suspicious that their coaches and teachers might be interested in them sexually, and aware that cell phone and hidden cameras are almost ubiquitous. And, ironically, so many of them send naked photos of themselves to each other. Anyway, I did enjoy the naked college jocks while it lasted!

I have one real-life friend who I’m quite open with. Turns out we both hire (although I’m not these days). We’ve shared stories. He’s given me recommends. It’s nice when you can hang out with someone who “gets it.”

Thanks for that great summary. Years and years ago, I was diagnosed with major depressive disorder with recurrence (my psychiatrist disagreed with a previous diagnosis of bipolar disorder) and generalized anxiety disorder. After some experimentation, I ended up on Pristiq (which I loved for its lack of sexual side effects) for the depression, trazodone for insomnia, and and Xanax for both anxiety and insomnia (which are, I know, related). After lots of therapy, regular exercise, dealing with porn addiction through the SAA 12-step program, developing friendships in which I can talk honestly and regularly, getting involved in a gay-friendly church I love, and leaving a job with a toxic work environment, plus practicing mindfulness when it comes to my automatic thoughts, I am off of both the the Pristiq and trazodone. I don’t know if my depression is “cured” but certainly the work of therapy combined with getting enough sleep, exercising regularly, having genuine connection with others, and regular exercise has enabled me to not be in its clutches and prepared me to get off most of the meds. I’m still taking 1m of Xanax before I go to sleep, down from a peak of 2-3 m, with some taken during the day as needed. My psychiatrist is comfortable with this 1m before bed continuing indefinitely. I’d like to get off it althogether. I considered stopping cold turkey, but read enough about withdrawal to not risk that. I suggested to my psychiatrist that we switch my prescription to 4 X .25 m per day, so that I could start by taking 3.5 X .25 m and gradually reduce from there. He hasn’t wanted to do that and suggested I start using a razor blade to just shave off a small portion of the 1 m pills, and gradually increasing the amount cut off. This seems like it would be too hard to control in practice and I’ve delayed trying to implement it. He seems delighted I am doing well off the Pristiq and trazodone, which I am. He also seems perfectly happy with an if-it’s-not-broke-don’t-fix-it approach and having me stay on the 1m of Xanax at bed forever. So, unlike the patients who would fight for their Xanax, it’s almost like I have to fight to get off Xanax. (Yes, I could and evidently I should try the shaving technique.)

Thanks. That makes some sense, but in this case if he’s telling his whole story, from the sequence of events it will be clear he was over 18, and he wants to be totally open. I did suggest he talk with a gay or gay-friendly priest or minister who does counseling, because then it would be a protected conversation.

Thanks. I suggested when he does talk with a therapist, he ask in hypothetical terms, like, “if a client of yours said he had sex in front of a minor 14 years ago and the family declined to involve legal authorities, would that be something you would have to report?”

I do. After many years of therapy and lots and lots of Xanax, I eventually found that meditation and mindfulness, especially in the form of describing the thoughts, feelings, etc., being triggered to a trusted friend, to be enormously calming. Massage is great, too!

If you're a lawyer or therapist familiar with mandated reporting requirements for therapists, some guidance could be helpful. A younger colleague (I'll call him "Gabe"), now in his mid 30s, wants to see a therapist and doesn't know if it is safe to disclose the story below, about which he feels both remorse and fear that, even if he is in no legal jeopardy, his reputation is at risk in the #metoo era. 14 years ago, in NYC, a 14-year-old guy briefly witnessed Gabe (who was then 20) going down on another guy (also 20) in a more-or-less public situation. The 14-year-old had verbally encouraged them, but then when it actually happened got upset and left. Some drama ensued at the time (all three of them were involved in an ex-gay religious program), and the 14-year-old and his parents chose not to pursue any legal action. Now Gabe (who lives in the midwest) wants to start therapy to deal with many issues, including guilt about this incident, and wonders if he reveals this incident to a therapist if the therapist would be required as a mandated reporter to report the incident to NY authorities. It's clearly well past the statute of limitations, but I'm aware that in some situations this doesn't mean a past act of sexual abuse (if this was that) with a minor doesn't have to be reported. I'm neither a lawyer nor a therapist. This doesn't seem to me like the sort of thing a therapist would have to report now, but it's the kind of a situation, not involving physical contact, that I am not finding much about through quick Google searches. So if you are a lawyer or a therapist familiar with mandated reporting laws and can shed any light I can pass along, it would be appreciated.

I am competent but not brilliant at giving blow jobs. The best ones I’ve received have been from guys who absolutely LOVE sucking cock, and are really tuned into the response of the guy they are sucking. I had a boyfriend years ago who seemed to be psychic; he could sense my response to the slightest, most subtle change in what he was going with his hands, lips, or tongue. I’m just a bit too narcissistic for that.

In all my years of sporadic lurking and posting here, the issue of kickbacks or discounts or other compensation to clients for reviews has never come up, at least that I recall. Sometimes there have been suspicions about positive reviews from first-time reviewers, especially when all the reviews are from first-time reviewers and they are worded (or misworded) similarly.

Haven't been on for a while and this somehow grabbed my attention. So, George Dawson, living with your mom, uncomfortable (at least at first) about booking a session with a potential client who lives quite close, but knowing that he has seen your photos in your ad, what did you decide to do?