Harvey Weinstein

[+ pitman]

Poetic justice would be if Weinstein et al were subjected to the treatment they dished out to others.

 

http://resizing.flixster.com/Otc8eTimPebR_i5poN0jDbqahzE=/462x330/dkpu1ddg7pbsk.cloudfront.net/photo/13/57/95/13579587_ori.jpg

 

Shirley Stoler and Giancarlo Giannini in SEVEN BEAUTIES

[+ sniper]

Actresses have written about rejecting advances from famous men and women.

Note I'm not saying every actress or actor. I'm saying most of the people at the top. That's a much smaller number and they have a much greater number of people under them in the org chart.

[+ WilliamM]

Note I'm not saying every actress or actor. I'm saying most of the people at the top. That's a much smaller number and they have a much greater number of people under them in the org chart.

 

The actress in question was approached by one of Broadway's most well-known people. She names the people in question.

[+ sniper]

The actress in question was approached by one of Broadway's most well-known people. She names the people in question.

I'm not even sure what you are arguing with me about here. I am not questioning the veracity of the actress you speak of. We don't even seem to be talking about the same thing. I'm saying "in a particular field where guys spend time with hundreds of women, most of them at one point probably did sleep with one or more of them" - which by no means implies that most of the women slept with a man above them - and you are saying "well this woman never slept with anyone she worked for." I'm saying that there are ENOUGH actors/actresses who willingly sleep with someone above them that when someone alleges harassment/assault, people in the business will hesitate to assume the accusation is true absent knowing something else.

[+ stevenkesslar]

Yes. 100%.

 

Thinking otherwise would be about as tone deaf as Ditka saying racial oppression hasn't happened for the last 100 year...

 

It's interesting to watch how the emerging sheconomy is sorting itself out.

 

Most of my nieces and nephews are liberal. But one of my nieces who is about 40 is pretty conservative.

 

For several years in her 20's she was living with a handsome young doctor who made more than her. We all felt he kind of looked down on her. One of my brother's wife, who was very close to this niece, despised the doctor and suggested she dump him, since he didn't really seem to respect her. She eventually did.

 

Now this niece is a well paid pharmaceutical exec who married a man who is slightly older than her and makes less than her. He adores her, and she refers to herself as his "sugar mama."

 

But in her mind, still, there is a special place in hell for HRC, given her conservative views on some issues.

 

Oh the times, they are a changin...................

 

In my family, I'm the one who slept around to get ahead. Go figure.

[+ quoththeraven]

I think that there are plenty of men and women who are perfectly willing to sleep with anyone to advance their career, and they do. The existence of these people is why the victims of the assaulters have a hard time being believed until there is a critical mass of them. I would bet just about every single director or producer has at some point slept with an underling. I have no idea what fraction of them force themselves upon underlings.

From an employment law point of view, anytime anyone sleeps with someone in a position to advance their career it's of dubious legality and likely coerced.

 

I just wish people (men mostly) would figure this shit out and get their jollies from people who don't owe them anything otherwise.

[+ quoththeraven]

Do you really believe that? In the USA, 2017?

Yes. For example, an actual current elementary school homework assignment in the USA:

 

A word that contains "ur" and denotes a female healthcare worker. The expected answer was "nurse." The student's actual answer was "surgeon."

[+ sniper]

From an employment law point of view, anytime anyone sleeps with someone in a position to advance their career it's of dubious legality and likely coerced.

 

I just wish people (men mostly) would figure this shit out and get their jollies from people who don't owe them anything otherwise.

 

Yes legally, but socially what's the difference between "sleep with me and I'll pay you $500,000" and "sleep with me and I'll give you this job that pays $500,000 and makes you famous and you never have real financial worry again?" Let's be honest, a lot of people would willingly make that tradeoff.

I am NOT saying Weinstein is in the above category. He appears to be a flat-out rapist/extortionist who should rot in a jail cell.

[+ quoththeraven]

Yes legally, but socially what's the difference between "sleep with me and I'll pay you $500,000" and "sleep with me and I'll give you this job that pays $500,000 and makes you famous and you never have real financial worry again?" Let's be honest, a lot of people would willingly make that tradeoff.

I am NOT saying Weinstein is in the above category. He appears to be a flat-out rapist/extortionist who should rot in a jail cell.

There isn't any and neither constitutes sex work. Sex work would be where the woman offered sex in exchange for money. Here it's the man coercing it for money.

 

Let's be real, in most instances it's dangled in front of people in order to get ahead in a job they already have. It's only in the performing arts that there's much of an opportunity to make it a condition of a job or some form of career assistance.j

[+ quoththeraven]

So if you were sexually assaulted, would you report it to the police or take $$$ instead? What I'm saying is that by staying quiet and taking the money, these women let HW's predatory behavior continue. I suppose there were risks in speaking out, but I doubt their lives would be ruined. Reporting the crime could have saved others from a similar fate.

When is money ever offered in exchange for silence about sexual assault other than when it occurred during the course of employment?

 

It's a dumb hypothetical that I've never had to face. Most likely I'd report to HR but not the police, but unless I was willing to stay in a company with someone who sexually harassed me, I would likely leave. (Usually the man has more power and is higher up - that's why this happens.) I'm not going to leave empty-handed, considering I may have trouble finding another job and will incur medical expenses for counseling, etc. as a result of what happened. That money is no windfall. And HR is often more interested in protecting the company and higher ups who are perceived as indispensable than doing anything.

 

There's a grapevine in which women warn other women about harassers and predators, so it's not a complete free-for-all.

[ChristianCronin]

I didn't even know who this guy was until his name popped up everywhere on the news.

[Populist Fury]

I didn't even know who this guy was until his name popped up everywhere on the news.

 

He's the fat guy always sitting front row/center next to a young beautiful nominated actress at the Oscars...

 

I always found the way he'd force himself as their date for those events creepy as hell. He did help win a lot of those actresses their Oscar tho, probably the reason why they never had a problem sitting next to him until now.

[jjkrkwood]

There will always be a Harvey Weinstein,.......... and there will always be a slew of people lining up to reap the rewards he can bestow upon them. Selling yourself to the Devil is an age old game !

[+ quoththeraven]

When is money ever offered in exchange for silence about sexual assault other than when it occurred during the course of employment?

 

It's a dumb hypothetical that I've never had to face. Most likely I'd report to HR but not the police, but unless I was willing to stay in a company with someone who sexually harassed me, I would likely leave. (Usually the man has more power and is higher up - that's why this happens.) I'm not going to leave empty-handed, considering I may have trouble finding another job and will incur medical expenses for counseling, etc. as a result of what happened. That money is no windfall. And HR is often more interested in protecting the company and higher ups who are perceived as indispensable than doing anything.

 

There's a grapevine in which women warn other women about harassers and predators, so it's not a complete free-for-all.

To this point: 75% of those who report harassment experience retaliation.

 

https://www.vox.com/identities/2017/10/15/16438750/weinstein-sexual-harassment-facts

 

Twitter thread on what happens when you report:

 

 

Includes the following:

 

That confidential report? Wasn't confidential for even 5 minutes. And lots of women pulled me aside to warn me I had made a mistake.

I wasn't the first to report him. Or the 15th. No one knew how many times he'd been reported. But they knew no one ever did anything.

It wasn't silence that was a problem. No one had been silent. But (and other women vets already know this song) no one was listening.

I've reported problems. Backed others who reported. But the best advice I ever got was "When the environment is toxic? Leave."

I'm not afraid of a fight. But I know when I'm tilting at a windmill. And so do a lot of other women who reported & reported & got tired.

Yeah I could have sued. And maybe 2 or 3 years later something would have happened. But not a culture change. Just cash in my hand.

I didn't want the cash. I wanted change. I soapboxed enough. Speaking isn't the issue. Not listening? Not believing? Yeah that's the issue.

 

Notice: cash is all she would ever have gotten out of this even if she'd persisted and that you're asking women to sacrifice mental health and moving on for unspecified other people. No one should advocate one person sacrificing their health and happiness for the public good because another person harassed them.

 

Rather than castigate women for not reporting (keeping in mind 16% of reports are from men), how about discouraging other men from harassment and backing up those who do report? The problem is with the harassers, not the people who do or don't report it.

[jjkrkwood]

To this point: 75% of those who report harassment experience retaliation.

 

https://www.vox.com/identities/2017/10/15/16438750/weinstein-sexual-harassment-facts

 

Twitter thread on what happens when you report:

 

 

Includes the following:

 

That confidential report? Wasn't confidential for even 5 minutes. And lots of women pulled me aside to warn me I had made a mistake.

I wasn't the first to report him. Or the 15th. No one knew how many times he'd been reported. But they knew no one ever did anything.

It wasn't silence that was a problem. No one had been silent. But (and other women vets already know this song) no one was listening.

I've reported problems. Backed others who reported. But the best advice I ever got was "When the environment is toxic? Leave."

I'm not afraid of a fight. But I know when I'm tilting at a windmill. And so do a lot of other women who reported & reported & got tired.

Yeah I could have sued. And maybe 2 or 3 years later something would have happened. But not a culture change. Just cash in my hand.

I didn't want the cash. I wanted change. I soapboxed enough. Speaking isn't the issue. Not listening? Not believing? Yeah that's the issue.

 

Notice: cash is all she would ever have gotten out of this even if she'd persisted and that you're asking women to sacrifice mental health and moving on for unspecified other people. No one should advocate one person sacrificing their health and happiness for the public good because another person harassed them.

 

Rather than castigate women for not reporting (keeping in mind 16% of reports are from men), how about discouraging other men from harassment and backing up those who do report? The problem is with the harassers, not the people who do or don't report it.

 

 

QTR, I agree with everything you have said, but unfortunately Men R Men, so nothing will change. What THEY consider to be "Man" behavior will be around as long as there is air to breathe. And therefore, there will be victims. The best you can do is report the behavior and be prepared to walk away. For many, this is not easy, new jobs are hard to come by. But as I continue to repeat, everything in life is a choice, and your choices always have consequences. You can listen, you can believe, BUT you cant always Change... Its something called LIFE !

[+ quoththeraven]

QTR, I agree with everything you have said, but unfortunately Men R Men, so nothing will change. What THEY consider to be "Man" behavior will be around as long as there is air to breathe. And therefore, there will be victims. The best you can do is report the behavior and be prepared to walk away. For many, this is not easy, new jobs are hard to come by. But as I continue to repeat, everything in life is a choice, and your choices always have consequences. You can listen, you can believe, BUT you cant always Change... Its something called LIFE !

I refuse to believe men as a group are incapable of change. I'm just stubborn that way.

[jjkrkwood]

I refuse to believe men as a group are incapable of change. I'm just stubborn that way.

 

They have to WANT to change first... I dont think they feel they are doing anything wrong.

[+ quoththeraven]

This is why women don't report and men by and large don't understand.

 

source

 

Also posted on the other thread on Harvey Weinstein (the one on the Politics, Religions and War forum).

[+ poolboy48220]

I try to keep this in mind. I'm a big guy, over 6 feet and pushing 300 lbs. I don't experience the world the same way women do.

[Walker1]

I wrote in the other thread. In college I worked part time for my university. My boss was a fat old, Chinese lady who hit on me, sometimes physically. I played dumb and ignored that portion of her behavior. I talked to my friends who said she was notorious for that, hiring young college men and hitting on them.

 

I have been hit on by women in my youth-though in social situations. The fat Chinese boss lady was my first professionally and she was pretty open about it, didn't speak in riddles etc. I never took it seriously, but I guess that is sexual assault, especially since some times it crossed over into physical touching? I wonder how many men have been victim to the same behavior?? Now that women are in power a lot more-how common is it?? Are men conditioned to ignore it as it does not go along with manliness? I know a few men who say they had gone to clubs and have women grab butts etc-would that be considered sexual assault?

[jjkrkwood]

I wrote in the other thread. In college I worked part time for my university. My boss was a fat old, Chinese lady who hit on me, sometimes physically. I played dumb and ignored that portion of her behavior. I talked to my friends who said she was notorious for that, hiring young college men and hitting on them.

 

I have been hit on by women in my youth-though in social situations. The fat Chinese boss lady was my first professionally and she was pretty open about it, didn't speak in riddles etc. I never took it seriously, but I guess that is sexual assault, especially since some times it crossed over into physical touching? I wonder how many men have been victim to the same behavior?? Now that women are in power a lot more-how common is it?? Are men conditioned to ignore it as it does not go along with manliness? I know a few men who say they had gone to clubs and have women grab butts etc-would that be considered sexual assault?

 

 

Somehow females get a pass by society when it comes to harrassment, because society still views them as "the weaker sex" and not capable of harming a big strong man. Silly argument but women arent frowned on as much when it comes to being the aggressor in harrassment.

[P Gren]

Harvey Weinstein is an ass who should spend the rest of his life in jail. These women chose to stay silent when it mattered. Now that the man's been caught, these women should be ashamed of their previous silence. They picked their careers over stopping a pervert. Nothing to be proud of.

I appreciated what Colin Firth had to say about this, from his early career (it includes the reaction of Sophie Dix to his statement).

https://www.theguardian.com/film/2017/oct/13/colin-firth-expresses-shame-at-failing-to-act-on-weinstein-allegation

[P Gren]

I wrote in the other thread. In college I worked part time for my university. My boss was a fat old, Chinese lady who hit on me, sometimes physically. I played dumb and ignored that portion of her behavior. I talked to my friends who said she was notorious for that, hiring young college men and hitting on them.

 

I have been hit on by women in my youth-though in social situations. The fat Chinese boss lady was my first professionally and she was pretty open about it, didn't speak in riddles etc. I never took it seriously, but I guess that is sexual assault, especially since some times it crossed over into physical touching? I wonder how many men have been victim to the same behavior?? Now that women are in power a lot more-how common is it?? Are men conditioned to ignore it as it does not go along with manliness? I know a few men who say they had gone to clubs and have women grab butts etc-would that be considered sexual assault?

Why is it important to point out - and repeat the description of her - as fat and Chinese?

[+ poolboy48220]

Good point. That's another difference between how society views men & women. I see it in my Dad from time to time (he's in his 80's), he was talking about his sister's daughters and how they all grew up to be pretty homely. Or, watching TV one night, he pointed out how fat one of the women was on the show; I pointed out to him that she was skinnier than I was, and he just kind of grumbled.

[Walker1]

Why is it important to point out - and repeat the description of her - as fat and Chinese?

That is what she was-is there a problem in describing someone's appearance?