Harvey Weinstein

[Guest]

Harvey Weinstein is an ass who should spend the rest of his life in jail. That being said, I've always said that if you've been sexually assaulted, you should speak out ASAP so that the perpetrator can be brought to justice and others can be saved from a similar fate. I find it unseemly when women or men give creeps like Weinstein favors in exchange for furthering their career, then, years later, when their careers are well-established, holler and complain. In the meantime, others got assaulted because the likes of Gwyneth Paltrow kept silent until now. These women chose to stay silent when it mattered. Now that the man's been caught, these women should be ashamed of their previous silence. They picked their careers over stopping a pervert. Nothing to be proud of.

[Populist Fury]

Exactly, they're all a bunch of enablers. Zero sympathy for them.

[+ OliverSaks]

Your privilege oozes and is quite unpleasant.

 

Victim blaming is shameful.

 

Rape culture...

[Okliehomo]

In jail? BAH! That ass should be fucking President!!! Pussy Grabbers Unite!

 

Admin Note: There is already a thread on this topic in the Politics Forum. I don't think the OP wants this taking a political turn.

[Nvr2Thick]

I think it's interesting, and not in a good way, how much political focus this story has. Any public figure who has ever come in contact with Weinstein is expected to speak out against him while disavowing any knowledge of his behavior. Failure to do so will be spun as endorsement and/or a suggestion that the public figure had knowledge of Weinstein's behavior and chose not to speak out. Under different posturing the case could be made that anyone who speaks out against him might be characterized as crassly distancing him or herself from Weinstein.

[Guest]

I heard it in the news today that apparently a lot of women just took a lot of money from him in exchange for agreements not to speak out. Way to go. Sounds like good old prostitution to me. Sex for $$$$. Why he didn't just hire them the old fashioned way is beyond me. Not one of those women took the high road and just went to the cops . Talk about enabling...

[Bertster]

I looked up photos of him in his younger days in his prime, and he was a decidedly unattractive looking man then - for him, the obtaining of sex would have always been coupled with heavy coercion

[+ quoththeraven]

I heard it in the news today that apparently a lot of women just took a lot of money from him in exchange for agreements not to speak out. Way to go. Sounds like good old prostitution to me. Sex for $$$$. Why he didn't just hire them the old fashioned way is beyond me. Not one of those women took the high road and just went to the cops . Talk about enabling...

You really don't understand, do you? The money was to compensate them for UNWANTED advances and assaults. Weinstein had the power to make their lives miserable and ensure they didn't work in the industry if they didn't play along.

 

That's not the same thing as freely chosen sex work.

 

I've never been sexually harassed or assaulted, but I am very much an outlier in that regard.

[Guest]

You really don't understand, do you? The money was to compensate them for UNWANTED advances and assaults. Weinstein had the power to make their lives miserable and ensure they didn't work in the industry if they didn't play along.

 

That's not the same thing as freely chosen sex work.

Oh, I definitely don't sympathize one bit for HW. There's a line from the movie Enemy at the Gates in which Kruschev's character gives a pistol to a failed general and says to him"Why don't you save us all the red tape?". If I were HW's wife, that's what I'd say to him. I do understand he's been suicidal and won't be missed. But the women took cash in exchange for silence long after the assaults. Not on the same order of magnitude as what HW did, but not exactly honorable either. (The general does blow his brains out in the movie)

[+ quoththeraven]

Oh, I definitely don't sympathize one bit for HW. There's a line from the movie Enemy at the Gates in which Kruschev's character gives a pistol to a failed general and says to him"Why don't you save us all the red tape?". If I were HW's wife, that's what I'd say to him. I do understand he's been suicidal and won't be missed. But the women took cash in exchange for silence long after the assaults. Not on the same order of magnitude as what HW did, but not exactly honorable either. (The general does blow his brains out in the movie)

Honorable? What is honor in this situation?

 

I am not suggesting that you view Weinstein's acts incorrectly. I am suggesting that you are lacking in understanding and empathy for the consequences to the women he harassed and attacked. (I think by this point we can drop the pretense that these are all just unconfirmed allegations.)

 

You have no concept of the dynamics of power or the consequences. Why should they sacrifice their livelihoods and years of their life in order to come forward and be condescended to, insulted, publicly dragged through the mud and subjected to rape and death threats and bankrupt themselves? Weinstein could afford the best lawyers and take the litigation as far as he wanted. They couldn't because society still views men as the paradigm of humanity and women as some sort of subservient inferior species, which has all kinds of effects, including who's viewed as a leader and who gets paid what for what kind of work.

[+ Avalon]

With his wealth he could have paid women willing to fulfill every desire and want. There is never a need to force one's advances.

[+ quoththeraven]

With his wealth he could have paid women willing to fulfill every desire and want. There is never a need to force one's advances.

Yes, there is if you're a power-hungry exploiter of others/women.

 

The fact that they're being coerced is part of the attraction.

[+ quoththeraven]

Honorable? What is honor in this situation?

 

I am not suggesting that you view Weinstein's acts incorrectly. I am suggesting that you are lacking in understanding and empathy for the consequences to the women he harassed and attacked. (I think by this point we can drop the pretense that these are all just unconfirmed allegations.)

 

You have no concept of the dynamics of power or the consequences. Why should they sacrifice their livelihoods and years of their life in order to come forward and be condescended to, insulted, publicly dragged through the mud and subjected to rape and death threats and bankrupt themselves? Weinstein could afford the best lawyers and take the litigation as far as he wanted. They couldn't because society still views men as the paradigm of humanity and women as some sort of subservient inferior species, which has all kinds of effects, including who's viewed as a leader and who gets paid what for what kind of work.

To this point:

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2017/10/12/not-just-harvey-weinstein-the-depressing-truth-about-sexual-harassment-in-america/

 

Four in ten women have stories like this, according to a recent study by the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission. Four in ten women report enduring unwanted advances in a work environment, which could include a come-on, a gendered insult and sexual assault.

 

But only a tiny fraction — between 6 and 13 percent — ever lodge a formal complaint, the EEOC found. Less than a third tell their bosses or human resources.

 

They often don’t want to seem dramatic. They’re nervous people won’t believe them. They fear being judged or barred from opportunities or fired. They choose to brush it away, though harassment is linked to depression and anxiety — forces that can steer a promising career into paralysis.

 

“That primarily has to do with fear,” said Lilia Cortina, a psychology professor and sexual harassment researcher at the University of Michigan. “There’s fear of retaliation. Fear of being a troublemaker. Fear of the reporting process.”

 

Siddiqui feared the man’s power. He’d been in the industry much longer and seemed to know everyone. He also happened to be married.

 

She wasn’t interested in flirting back. Laughing it off felt like the only option.

 

“What are going to be the ramifications of challenging someone?” she said. “When you lack the authority in the eyes of society to do so and you know a lot more people who will rise to his defense?”

 

After months of direct messages on Twitter, Siddiqui confided in her friends, who made her feel more comfortable about cutting the man off. She told him his actions were inappropriate. He told her he’d been joking, and then he deleted their conversation history.

 

That was also why I felt like I couldn’t speak out,” she said. “It would be his word against mine.”

 

Sexual harassment remains a huge problem in the workplace today, although the public is less tolerant of inappropriate (and sometimes criminal) actions than they were 25 years ago, said Cortina, the sexual harassment researcher. Men filed about a tenth of last years’ complaints.

 

Gradually, Cortina said, people began to realize the behaviors some once saw as socially acceptable — making a suggestive remark, pinching a colleagues’ rear, offering an opportunity in exchange for bedroom favors — were predatory. And the complaints grew every year through 2010, when there were 12,695.

 

Then movement slid to a halt. The average number of annual complaints filed between 2010 and 2016 held steady at 12,526, with most coming from women. Government researchers say they don’t know why the reports have remained practically the same for the last seven years.

[Guest]

Honorable? What is honor in this situation?

 

I am not suggesting that you view Weinstein's acts incorrectly. I am suggesting that you are lacking in understanding and empathy for the consequences to the women he harassed and attacked. (I think by this point we can drop the pretense that these are all just unconfirmed allegations.)

 

You have no concept of the dynamics of power or the consequences. Why should they sacrifice their livelihoods and years of their life in order to come forward and be condescended to, insulted, publicly dragged through the mud and subjected to rape and death threats and bankrupt themselves? Weinstein could afford the best lawyers and take the litigation as far as he wanted. They couldn't because society still views men as the paradigm of humanity and women as some sort of subservient inferior species, which has all kinds of effects, including who's viewed as a leader and who gets paid what for what kind of work.

So if you were sexually assaulted, would you report it to the police or take $$$ instead? What I'm saying is that by staying quiet and taking the money, these women let HW's predatory behavior continue. I suppose there were risks in speaking out, but I doubt their lives would be ruined. Reporting the crime could have saved others from a similar fate.

[SuenosAmor]

Pig, and not the good kind.

[+ WilliamM]

So if you were sexually assaulted, would you report it to the police or take $$$ instead? What I'm saying is that by staying quiet and taking the money, these women let HW's predatory behavior continue. I suppose there were risks in speaking out, but I doubt their lives would be ruined. Reporting the crime could have saved others from a similar fate.

 

You are asking women to make what could be a life changing decision about a situation not their fault, rather HW's.

 

Nice to you doubt their lives would be ruined.

 

Jeez.

[+ purplekow]

You are asking women to make what could be a life changing decision about a situation not their fault, rather HW's.

 

Nice to you doubt their lives would be ruined.

 

Jeez.

There is no doubt many, if not all of these women, are victims. Perpetrators, such as Mr. Weinstein, Mr. Trump, Mr. Clinton, who indulge in this type of harassment, count on the silence and fear of the victims. Those who remain silent, continue as victims. The first big step to moving past being just a victim, is to step forward. Someone needs to be first. Someone needs to act and not accept being powerless. Someone needs to face the fear of speaking out rather than sitting silently while others fall prey. Being first is frightening and it has consequences, but the choices are live in victimhood or try and move past it. Both have short term and long term cost.

 

Weinstein is merely the flavor of the month as a perpetrator, unfortunately there are many, many more. So speak out and try and stem the tide or stay silent and leave in fear and shame. Not great choices but what alternative is there. I do not expect this kind of behavior to stop, though the behavior is reprehensible. Perpetrators are playing the odds: Most will stay silent. Some can be bought off. Many of the raised voices will be shouted down. The one, loud persistent, unyielding voice, well, the perpetrators try very hard to sift that one out at the very beginning.

[OCClient]

Running an ethical organization includes prohibiting any action that has even the appearance of being unethical. C. Vance should resign.

 

As far as Weinstein, it is sickening to me to imagine what all of these people have suffered. The world seems to be one big episode of Benny Hill, except it is not funny.

[BaronArtz]

society still views men as the paradigm of humanity and women as some sort of subservient inferior species, which has all kinds of effects, including who's viewed as a leader and who gets paid what for what kind of work.

 

Do you really believe that? In the USA, 2017?

[+ OliverSaks]

Do you really believe that? In the USA, 2017?

Yes. 100%.

 

Thinking otherwise would be about as tone deaf as Ditka saying racial oppression hasn't happened for the last 100 year...

[+ sniper]

I think that there are plenty of men and women who are perfectly willing to sleep with anyone to advance their career, and they do. The existence of these people is why the victims of the assaulters have a hard time being believed until there is a critical mass of them. I would bet just about every single director or producer has at some point slept with an underling. I have no idea what fraction of them force themselves upon underlings.

[+ pitman]

There is no doubt many, if not all of these women, are victims. Perpetrators, such as Mr. Weinstein, Mr. Trump, Mr. Clinton, who indulge in this type of harassment, count on the silence and fear of the victims. Those who remain silent, continue as victims. The first big step to moving past being just a victim, is to step forward. Someone needs to be first. Someone needs to act and not accept being powerless. Someone needs to face the fear of speaking out rather than sitting silently while others fall prey. Being first is frightening and it has consequences, but the choices are live in victimhood or try and move past it. Both have short term and long term cost.

 

Weinstein is merely the flavor of the month as a perpetrator, unfortunately there are many, many more. So speak out and try and stem the tide or stay silent and leave in fear and shame. Not great choices but what alternative is there. I do not expect this kind of behavior to stop, though the behavior is reprehensible. Perpetrators are playing the odds: Most will stay silent. Some can be bought off. Many of the raised voices will be shouted down. The one, loud persistent, unyielding voice, well, the perpetrators try very hard to sift that one out at the very beginning.

This post reminds me of the difficult choices LGBT people face in coming out. A few very brave people stepped forward when it was very dangerous to do so, thus making it easier for others to follow. Some people, for various reasons, may never be able to come forward. Their choice should be accepted. For someone who has been a victim of harassment to actively participate in the enabling of harassers and setting up others for victimization is another issue. It is analogous to a closeted LGBT politician promoting anti-LGBT attitudes and legislation.

[+ WilliamM]

I would bet just about every single director or producer has at some point slept with an underling

 

I usually think you are one of the best posters here.

 

Not so sure here though.

[+ sniper]

I usually think you are one of the best posters here.

 

Not so sure here though.

I'm not saying they are doing so coercively or even in a quid pro quo. I'm just saying people in the performing arts tend to hook up. Long hours working together, attractive people, not infrequent drug use...stuff happens. And that provides a certain amount of "cover" for the predators. The boss marrying the secretary is an age old trope because it happened with some regularity.

[+ WilliamM]

I'm not saying they are doing so coercively or even in a quid pro quo. I'm just saying people in the performing arts tend to hook up. Long hours working together, attractive people, not infrequent drug use...stuff happens. And that provides a certain amount of "cover" for the predators. The boss marrying the secretary is an age old trope because it happened with some regularity.

 

Actresses have written about rejecting advances from famous men and women.