End of an era for gay men in New York

[Rick Munroe]

Derek and I had the pleasure of escorting a fun new client around New York for 4 days last week. He wanted to see parts of New York that one wouldn't usually see on one of those standard tours. Aside from museums (we loved Brancusi at the Guggenheim and Deco furniture at the Met), great restaurants (including 2 of my favorites: Craft and Blue Water Grill) and a stroll across the Brooklyn Bridge (and back again), we also wanted to show him 2 areas where gay men have traditionally gathered for wild, uninhibited sleazy sex (not that we ever participated; we were 100% monogamous and naive and scared then but we loved to watch).

 

First, we went to the piers near Christopher Street. From what we've seen and from what I've heard from older guys who used to go there in the 70's/80's, this was an amazing place, filled with nude or semi-nude men, sunbathing or blowing each other on the abandoned, rickety old piers and fucking in the warehouse. Of course, now they have built a beautiful grassy park, and it is lovely. We knew that, but we hadn't been back to the area since we'd visited with KY-Top during the blackout, and now there's a big kiddie park with slides and monkey-bars. When the kiddies arrive, it's a nail in the coffin of the great gay era of New York (the first nail was when the term "Chelsea boy" began to refer to a kid in a stroller, rather than a muscle queen) (or was it the first nail when they started opening up nail salons here?)

 

The final nail has been pounded into the Rambles in Central Park. Again, we never participated, but when we used to venture into the Rambles, it was filled with cruising (and sucking and fucking) and the air was thick with sex. One of my favorite memories was about 8 years ago, when Derek and I went for a walk in the woods. There were so many used rubbers on the ground that we turned it into a game (Condom Hunt). I forget the rules but I think you got 2 points if you spotted a wrapper, 5 points for a condom, and 2 bonus points for a packet of lube. (I won.) I know times have changed but there was not one single gay man in the Rambles now. What we did see was straight couple after straight couple after straight couple...with baby strollers. I mean, that's nice for them to enjoy the park, but where have all the gay men gone? As Derek said, it's all online now, and as I said, that's the end of spontaneity and the last great gay era in New York.

 

I know, we used to complain when Chelsea was a gay ghetto, etc, etc, but now that the city is getting more homogenized, it's taking away the fun of having a secret (but out) little world. And this is all sounding dumb as I type it, so I'll end now.

[LovesYng]

>The final nail has been pounded into the Rambles in Central

>Park. Again, we never participated, but when we used to

>venture into the Rambles, it was filled with cruising (and

>sucking and fucking) and the air was thick with sex. One of

>my favorite memories was about 8 years ago, when Derek and I

>went for a walk in the woods. There were so many used rubbers

>on the ground that we turned it into a game (Condom Hunt). I

>forget the rules but I think you got 2 points if you spotted a

>wrapper, 5 points for a condom, and 2 bonus points for a

>packet of lube. (I won.) I know times have changed but there

>was not one single gay man in the Rambles now. What we did

>see was straight couple after straight couple after straight

>couple...with baby strollers. I mean, that's nice for them to

>enjoy the park, but where have all the gay men gone? As Derek

>said, it's all online now, and as I said, that's the end of

>spontaneity and the last great gay era in New York.

 

Great story Rick, as I remember those were the days back then. Just shocked, no counting of used needles (j/k)??? I remember the same type of areas in Philly back in the 70's & 80's, what a shame the "Internet" came into the picture. Some nice picking back then and you could see it live without typing :-(

 

When in doubt I whip it out :+

[Guest manreadyokc]

What a wonderful story, Rick! I'm having a slow day at work and it really brightened an otherwise dull afternoon, so many thanks. What I'm left with, though, is a nearly overwhelming urge to take that same tour with you and Derek because I think that your client probably had the time of his life . . . OK?

[Rick Munroe]

>What I'm left with, though, is a nearly overwhelming

>urge to take that same tour with you and Derek because I think

>that your client probably had the time of his life

 

Well, we're already planning his return trip so I guess he did have a good time, but so did Derek and I (and he doesn't read the message center so I am not sucking up ). And yeah, we would love to take you on that same tour...although, unfortunately, Condom Hunt has become Huggies Hunt (and this time, I don't want to win).

[Rick Munroe]

>Some nice

>picking back then and you could see it live without typing

 

And without having to have digital pics taken of your various body parts (although, I do like that, too).

[Will]

It's all too bad, despite the fact that New York is probably the easiest city in the world to be gay in. But I think there are a lot of socio-economic reasons for what you complain about. For instance:

 

1. Until the late '70s the Upper West Side was still cheap and lots of gay men lived there. Then came the '80s and the birth of the Yuppy. All of a sudden it was possible for young people to afford to live in Manhattan; they colonized the UWS -- as witness the utter transformation of Columbus and Amsterdam Avenues over the past 25 years -- and the gay men tended to move out.

 

2. Ditto, in the "old days," it was perfectly possible to live on the Upper East Side without being a gajillionaire if you would live as far east as First Avenue. At that time, the east side of Third Avenue from about 50th Street north looked like Sunset Boulevard, with hustlers practically side-by-side. But once again, look at the UES neighborhoods that used to be affordable. The brownstones are gone and have been replaced by huge, ugly high-rises along Second and First Avenues, inhabited by yuppies-with-kids.

 

3. Then Chelsea opened up. When gay men lived uptown, just about the only population in Chelsea was Puerto Rican, except for the little community hovered in and around the General Seminary of the Episcopal Church on 9th Avenue. In the '80s it wasn't just the guys from the West Village who moved up; if you could afford to live decently in the West Village, you stayed there. But men who got gentrified off the UWS and UES moved to Chelsea, and with that migration went the after-hours places in both neighborhoods, as well as the ramble.

 

4. It's my sense that HIV killed the piers. It was so Mapplethorpe.

 

It's all too, too bad. There's a price to be paid for liberation of any kind, though. And, frankly, I wouldn't want to go backwards -- even for Gotham glamor.

[Guest backbaygayguy]

Thanks for the memories, Rick. And what about Christopher Street? I lived in NYC for a few years right after Stonewall (and before Chelsea) -- while out, I was too shy to even watch the action on the piers. This last May I was visiting, and a friend and I walked along the Hudson and enjoyed the new parks, and I did have pleasant memories of the sunbathers and guys lounging.

 

I used to enjoy strolling Christopher Street in the evening, watching the boys out strolling. All that’s changed now too, and the areas closer to the river cleaned up (the corner of Hudson and Christopher was always very active). Christopher Street still has some gay landmarks, but it’s changing too -- a friend warned me that Dunkin’ Donuts and Subways have opened up stores, so how much longer before the special places (including Lilac Chocolates) disappear and Christopher is just an ordinary street with a Gap, more nail salons, and several Starbucks?

 

BTW, I work with a straight guy similar in age to me, and we discovered we both lived in the West Village around the same time. We occasionally talk about the lively evening street life then, watching the crowds and Rollerina, going to the little jazz bars and small theaters, etc. It was a magic place for him also.

[Guest Derek Ross]

>It's all too, too bad. There's a price to be paid for

>liberation of any kind, though. And, frankly, I wouldn't want

>to go backwards -- even for Gotham glamor.

 

I have to make this quick because I rarely get a chance at the computer and if I don't let him have his way, Rick withholds sex.

 

You're absolutely right, Will, and I wouldn't want to go backwards either. What I can't understand is gay men who don't embrace the move forward and who feel that issues like marriage don't matter. We have already given up so much of our past, so if we don't continue to move forward and grow, then we're left with nothing but memories.

 

It also seems as if there are more young families deciding to stay in the city rather than move out to the suburbs, hence the need for more units and the growth of those big ugly apartment buildings. Unfortunately, every part of Manhattan is becoming more homogenous and our neighborhoods are losing their character. New York will always be one of the greatest cities in the world, but we are seeing a slow stripping away of its individuality.

[Guest zipperzone]

Im surprised that no one has waxed nostalgic over the loss of those great establishments in the meat packing district. I remember two with great fondness, The Toilet, and The Mine Shaft.

 

I rembmber seeing Andy Worhol (sp?) at the Toilet one early morning, on his knees trying to suck off a couple of lovlies, and he was so drunk or stoned that he kept falling over and having to be proped back up.

 

And at the Mine Shaft I saw my first bathtub where guys lay in the tub to get pissed on. Always wanted to try it but was to shy.

 

When I returned home to Toronto after my debauched weekends and told all my friends of what I saw, hardly any of them believe me. They just could not percieve that such places actually existed.

 

Also the piers, in the dead of night were wicked. Only problem was you had to be constantly on the alert in case your leg fell into a hole in the rotten floorboards, with the muddy Hudson right below.

 

Sometimes I would stay at the WMCA on the UWS in the low 60's. (when I was feeling real slutty - or to poor to afford The Algonquin) What went on there in the shower rooms almost rivaled the action at The Toilet

 

And the jazz clubs..... oh the memories.

[Ignoto]

> now that the city is getting more homogenized,

 

 

Not sure that's the best choice of words.

[Rick Munroe]

>> now that the city is getting more homogenized,

>

>

>Not sure that's the best choice of words.

 

We drink milk here, too, you know!

[HooBoy]

Not that I would ever go to one....

 

BUT I HEAR...

 

there are plenty of sex-clubs still in New York. You just have to know where to go for them...

 

And hope they do not think you are over 40 when you get to the door.

 

}(

[buzz]

Great post, guys. I was just in NYC for a visit and was sad to see the decline of gay venues....Stella's and Rounds gone, the Rambles "straightened up," the waterfront gentrified, the meat-packing district yuppified. I am such an old fruit that I remember NYC pre-Stonewall. When I first got into the scene, there were still ships docking at the piers near the Village. At the West Street end of Christopher, the building that is now a video store was a gay bar called Dirty Dicks Focscle Saloon. Foreign sailors used to drop in not realizing what it was until guys started coming on to them. There was a stunningly beautiful drag queen for whom a Swedish sailor was lusting. The sailor was totally freaked out when he found out his girl was a boy, but he was still turned on to "her".

 

The after-hours clubs in the meat-packing district--Zodiac and later Mine Shaft--were utter delight.

 

Glad I was there!

buzz

[KY_TOP]

New York Tour Guides

 

> We knew that, but we hadn't been back

>to the area since we'd visited with KY-Top during the

>blackout,

 

Changing the subject abit...Anyone visiting NYC and wanting to see the place from the Natives view. I'd highly recommend hiring Rick and Derek for the day, plus you can always have rest stops back at the Hotel.

[Guest Tristan]

Great word - "gajillionaire." I don't know if you coined it, but it should be added to the leading dictionaries along with other computerese, such as IM.