When is it friendship and when is it taking advantage?

[actor61]

It sounds like you stifled your real thoughts throughout his stay. If there's a next time, perhaps you could share your feelings early on. http://www.boytoy.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif

 

Soooo funny! Thank you for the laugh!!! I needed it.

[Nvr2Thick]

Maybe he sees you as his father figure.

As such he is looking for a free lunch.

And a place he can stay where he feels safe.

And a place he can just chill out.

And a mentor he can discuss life issues with.

 

Cruise ship work (also merchant marine and navy) can be very stressful. Crew and staff often see very little personal time off during the cruise duration. A safe haven in port is a precious commodity.

 

Have another chat with him (email since he’s gone?). A heart to heart conversation about mutual expectations.

 

Write down your expectations. Ponder over them for at least a day before your send them to him.

 

Remind him that you are from very different generations. Tell him that you miss the closeness your friendship had in the past. Tell him you were hurt by what you perceive to be his selfishness. Not so much as a gesture of appreciation towards you. His focus on gaming and texting.

 

Let him know that you are willing to continue your platonic friendship but there needs to be more effort on his part to fulfill his side of the relationship.

 

Put the ball in his court. If he doesn’t respond acceptably then move on.

 

+1

 

I'd add that, while this is no excuse, your friend's behavior may come from a variety of sources. Basic courtesies of our era were not taught as often in his. My mother had to teach her daughters-in-law that gifts deserve thank you notes. I've been invited to parties by younger coworkers who are sometimes put off by the wrapped bottle I bring; they were never taught that guests don't come empty-handed, and sometimes I'm the only one bringing something for the host. I took a nice young man to dinner, and was appalled to see that he didn't know how to use his napkin. It was balled up on the table within hand's reach to be used as a mouth-mop between bites.

 

Also, many good-looking people have been entitled for most of their young adult lives. I know a coworker who was a high school and college athlete. He worked with me at his second job, moving into his mid 20's. He had been a rising star with his first employer, and I could tell that he was accustomed to a lot of preferential treatment. Most people wanted to be his friend immediately because of his striking build and looks. He got his job where I work mostly because he had been successful in the past, and because people were willing to believe that he was something special. As he lost some hair, put on some weight, and moved to an age and level where being good looking didn't help as much this guy honestly struggled to understand why he wasn't a big deal anymore.

 

I'm not sure if the methods will be successful, but I agree with not2rowdy's point that you may be in a position to be a mentor to your friend. You'd have to explain and coach, rather than venting your frustrations. You'd have to recognize that he honestly does not understand social grace, and he'd have to be open to recognizing that deficiency and accepting of your guidance.

[+ Gar1eth]

 

According to him, he DOES value our relationship but his way of showing that appreciation is non existent. He has a lousy relationship with his parents and in fact came to see me rather than going to see them. That says a lot. As for his "lucrative" cruise ship job, yes he was a dancer. In 7 months, he saved up $13,000 and proudly showed me his bank statement. And he STILL couldn't buy me a cup of coffee. LOL.

 

This may be the root of the problem there. It may also have to with his rearing-did he have a normal childhood or were his parents actually sh*theads?

 

I don't want to come over as too judgmental on the 26 year old here as I was actually accused of being an inconsiderate friend three years ago. Being totally honest it was partially but not totally true. I don't want to go into the situation now. But there were extenuating circumstances. And in certain cases the accuser was not considering things I had done for them. Suffice it to say even the best of us (which I am far from being) can't always see how our actions and interactions are seen from the outside.

 

If this 26 year old had a chaotic upbringing compounded by being good-looking where he often receives gifts and things that the rest of us wouldn't, and had a gypsy kind of bohemian lifestyle, it's possible he hasn't had much consistent modeling of how true friends interact or discovered the meaning of reciprocity. Hopefully in the future, he will learn. Actually I'm glad he's straight. It's refreshing to know that narcissism isn't exclusive to good looking young gay males.

 

Make no mistake I am mostly on your side. In most cases I agree this guy's actions were very inconsiderate and rude. His actions would still have been rude and inconsiderate even if he had been staying with friends his own age and acted that way.

 

One thing in your post-you might possibly give him a break on-possibly--the shower episode-to whit

 

He came out of the shower one evening with a towel wrapped around his waist and I said, "You look great. You're really in good shape now." And his reply was, "And I have a fantastic penis, which you will never see."

 

Maybe I'm imagining too much-but you say he was a dancer. I'm assuming there were also other handsome male dancers working with him on the ship. It's even possible some of them were gay. And space on the ship is probably very tight. The dancers most likely change costumes together in a small dressing room. It's not beyond imagining that he works out with these other dancers in the weight room, or they are in shared cabins .

 

Or maybe they have their own private rooms but it wouldn't be beyond belief that he let a friend in his room right before he was going to shower. In any of these cases-in the cramped quarters of a ship, it wouldn't be beyond the pale of belief that he and his friends see each other nude or semi nude fairly frequently. And that remark of his seems kind of like the jokey remark young guys make to each other -the kind of remark you would make to either a gay friend horsing around together in the gym locker room after a workout or to a straight friend with the jokey insinuation that the friend is gay (when it's obvious the friend is totally straight).

 

 

Gman

[+ WilliamM]

I do not believe this to be a generational thing nor do I think you are old fashioned

 

There are several other people here, including me, who believe it is a generational thing. In my case, mixed with a bit of bad parenting. How many people in their 20s do you know well?

[+ purplekow]

You say he is a friend, but this is recognizable as a friendship to me. If you want the relationship to continue, an my guess is that you do, establish the rules.

He can stay at your place. The dinner table is not time for phones. He has to pay for something, sometime as you are not an ATM. If he is unhappy leave, and if you are unhappy with him, he will be told to leave.

I doubt you are just a guy with a bed and a wallet to him. If that is true, have him back. Set the rules. Kick his ass out if he is rude, slovenly, lazy, cheap or makes you unhappy. Let him know he will get booted and then it is his decision to follow the rules or stay somewhere else People frequently live down to our expectations and it seems to me all you expected was for this guy to be cute and around. You do not set standards of behavior toward you with one outburst every 5 years. Good luck

[actor61]

This may be the root of the problem there. It may also have to with his rearing-did he have a normal childhood or were his parents actually sh*theads?

 

I don't want to come over as too judgmental on the 26 year old here as I was actually accused of being an inconsiderate friend three years ago. Being totally honest it was partially but not totally true. I don't want to go into the situation now. But there were extenuating circumstances. And in certain cases the accuser was not considering things I had done for them. Suffice it to say even the best of us (which I am far from being) can't always see how our actions and interactions are seen from the outside.

 

If this 26 year old had a chaotic upbringing compounded by being good-looking where he often receives gifts and things that the rest of us wouldn't, and had a gypsy kind of bohemian lifestyle, it's possible he hasn't had much consistent modeling of how true friends interact or discovered the meaning of reciprocity. Hopefully in the future, he will learn. Actually I'm glad he's straight. It's refreshing to know that narcissism isn't exclusive to good looking young gay males.

 

Make no mistake I am mostly on your side. In most cases I agree this guy's actions were very inconsiderate and rude. His actions would still have been rude and inconsiderate even if he had been staying with friends his own age and acted that way.

 

One thing in your post-you might possibly give him a break on-possibly--the shower episode-to whit

 

He came out of the shower one evening with a towel wrapped around his waist and I said, "You look great. You're really in good shape now." And his reply was, "And I have a fantastic penis, which you will never see."

 

Maybe I'm imagining too much-but you say he was a dancer. I'm assuming there were also other handsome male dancers working with him on the ship. It's even possible some of them were gay. And space on the ship is probably very tight. The dancers most likely change costumes together in a small dressing room. It's not beyond imagining that he works out with these other dancers in the weight room, or they are in shared cabins .

 

Or maybe they have their own private rooms but it wouldn't be beyond belief that he let a friend in his room right before he was going to shower. In any of these cases-in the cramped quarters of a ship, it wouldn't be beyond the pale of belief that he and his friends see each other nude or semi nude fairly frequently. And that remark of his seems kind of like the jokey remark young guys make to each other -the kind of remark you would make to either a gay friend horsing around together in the gym locker room after a workout or to a straight friend with the jokey insinuation that the friend is gay (when it's obvious the friend is totally straight).

 

 

Gman

I have been a professional actor/singer/dancer all of my adult life and you are right: those kinds of remarks are made all the time by gay and straight men in dressing rooms and gyms and showers. Heaven knows I've made my fair share of them! What upset me about the "fantastic penis" remark is that he told me he was straight at the very beginning of our friendship, I have always believed him and respected him, I have never been inappropriate with him or made a move on him. In the context of the event, I felt that I was being reminded that he was straight for the gazillionth time, and it was redundant and unnecessary. I GET IT! His tone of voice made me feel somehow creepy, as though he thought I was trying to cop a peek or a feel all of a sudden. The day earlier, when he was telling me about his adventures on the ship, he recounted how he'd fucked a girl standing up in a maintenance closet because they had cabin mates and couldn't find anywhere else. I said, "Yeah, I've done it in some pretty strange places too" to which he said, "When I think about gay sex, it grosses me out," and shuddered. Quite simply, I'D HAD ENOUGH!

 

I'm really not trying to overthink this thing or defend myself or deride his character or make myself look like a hero and him like a brat. I was seeking opinions and to see if anybody else had had similar experiences, and I'm overwhelmed at the responses. I have been a sort of mentor to him and I have tried to gently, discreetly, inoffensively correct his manners (he eats like a pig and I've explained several times where a napkin goes and how it's used, to no avail). He's a good person who was raised haphazardly but as somebody above pointed out, now that he's actively seeking work, he needs to learn basic behavior or he's going to have trouble finding employment. He is constantly asking me what I did to have a successful career in show business and I keep telling him that you often get hired for professionalism and reliability over talent and brilliance. His ship contract was not renewed to his despair because he lacked those 2 things (he showed me the work review he received and it wasn't good - they said he was a good dancer but unprofessional offstage). We have had long talks about how you have to be there on time, you have to do what they give you no matter how silly the steps are, and you have to be sure you're complaining at the right time to the right people. As my grandfather used to say, "When you start a job, keep your mouth shut and your bowels open." He was a big fan of regularity!

 

Anyway, it's my little problem and I'll fix it. I love this kid a lot, like the son I've never had, and I wish him well. But I don't want to continue this - whatever it is - if I have to have my nose rubbed in how straight he is, and how "lovely" straight sex is but how "gross" gay sex is every time the subject comes up. I wish I'd said, "MY penis is pretty fantastic too" when he made that remark but I didn't think fast enough. Damn. Why are we always brilliant after the fact?!

 

Thanks again for all of your comments. I have enjoyed reading them and they have really helped.

[Guest]

Perhaps I missed something, but I don't see where you explained anything to him at all, let alone "over and over."

 

1. Recognize that we all have different ways of hanging out and relaxing: I'm not a fan of his texting while eating meals with you. You mentioned that he slept all day. If he has a job on a cruise ship it is possible that he is tired. What is wrong with that?
   

1. 
   

The OP stated in a follow-up posting that he told his guest that he didn't appreciate it when the guest used the cell phone at the table. The guest continued to do so. Now, I don't know how often this cell phone was interrupting the dinner, but I would certainly not expect the OP to have to repeatedly tell the guest that he didn't like cell phone use at the table. The guest knew and didn't care about his host's feelings. As for the sleeping when the host had tickets for the concert, the only clarification I would be curious about was whether the dancer knew about the concert ahead of time. If the OP bought the tickets in the morning while his dancer guest was sleeping, then suddenly barged in at 12:30 PM and said "Get ready to go in half an hour! We're going to a matinee concert which starts at 2!", then I would give the dancer a pass. If the guest knew about it the night before, then leaving the OP to go all alone at the last minute was incredibly rude, and completely indefensible. If the dancer knew about it and stood the OP up, that shows such callousness and lack of consideration, that it leaves me almost incredulous. I'm guessing the dancer knew about it ahead of time and flaked out, in which case cancelling at the last minute was cruel at an almost sociopathic level.

[actor61]

The OP stated in a follow-up posting that he told his guest that he didn't appreciate it when the guest used the cell phone at the table. The guest continued to do so. Now, I don't know how often this cell phone was interrupting the dinner, but I would certainly not expect the OP to have to repeatedly tell the guest that he didn't like cell phone use at the table. The guest knew and didn't care about his host's feelings. As for the sleeping when the host had tickets for the concert, the only clarification I would be curious about was whether the dancer knew about the concert ahead of time. If the OP bought the tickets in the morning while his dancer guest was sleeping, then suddenly barged in at 12:30 PM and said "Get ready to go in half an hour! We're going to a matinee concert which starts at 2!", then I would give the dancer a pass. If the guest knew about it the night before, then leaving the OP to go all alone at the last minute was incredibly rude, and completely indefensible. If the dancer knew about it and stood the OP up, that shows such callousness and lack of consideration, that it leaves me almost incredulous. I'm guessing the dancer knew about it ahead of time and flaked out, in which case cancelling at the last minute was cruel at an almost sociopathic level.

 

He did know about it the day before and he did flake out. Hence my wrath.

[+ WmClarke]

Buy him a copy of "Miss Manners Guide To Excruciatingly Correct Behavior". It's a long book but well worth the read.

 

We had a similar issue when my mother was dying. Her best friend came to visit and expected my sister to wait on her (and her husband) hand and foot. Don't know what my sister said to her, but they were much better behaved when they came to town for the funeral.

[Str8boyluvr]

It always makes me sad to hear about people who do all the right things and don't get the treatment they deserve in return.

 

I respectfully disagree with those who categorize this as a generational difference. I have older friends (actually prefer them to people my age). I came from a lousy family with a lousy upbringing, and I value the hell out of anyone who shows me the slightest bit of support or kindness. As a recent college graduate I had nothing to offer my older friends in terms of material things, but I never said no to helping them with any thing I could, I never asked them buy me anything and when they did I was always sincerely grateful, and told them so.

 

I take great joy in knowing that I can now return the favor since I'm gainfully employed.

 

You have been a true friend and this person does not deserve your time, money or energy. You've been up front with him about those things that displease you. You were a gracious host and he was as you put it, a rotten guest.

 

Ultimately the choice is yours, and I applaud your telling him he needs to find a different place to stay next time he's in town. If he wants to meet you ask him "Where are you taking ME to dinner?" His response will say it all.

 

He is not your friend....at least not in the real sense of the word. He may think of you as his friend, but he has a lot to learn about what that means.

[+ Gar1eth]

The question is of course whether in your heart you want to continue the friendship knowing that if he ever changes it most likely is going to take years with multiple episodes of backsliding. Plus much needed instruction from you on subjects like reciprocity.

 

Gman

[Guest]

His ship contract was not renewed to his despair because he lacked those 2 things (he showed me the work review he received and it wasn't good - they said he was a good dancer but unprofessional offstage). We have had long talks about how you have to be there on time, you have to do what they give you no matter how silly the steps are, and you have to be sure you're complaining at the right time to the right people. As my grandfather used to say, "When you start a job, keep your mouth shut and your bowels open." He was a big fan of regularity!

 

http://www.riseleyphysio.com/newsletter/82/Bowel_function.gif

 

The more you tell us, the more I'm convinced this guy is both an asshole and an idiot, who has no consideration for others. He wouldn't accept counseling to save his job, so I doubt he'll change his behavior for you. The cell phone and the coffee thing are just annoying, but the blow-off on the concert would have really done it for me. He'll get by on his looks for a while, because many people will hire based on his looks, and, in the case of a dancer, an audition. After all, few employers are willing to make negative comments when left as a job reference. Look how often that asshole Vester Flanagan/Bryce Williams (the guy who murdered the reporters on the air) got hired, despite his obnoxious behavior from one workplace to the next. Unless he "gets it" he'll probably end up homeless, having burned too many bridges. He would have been luckier to have been gay, because his behavior would have been tolerated longer by gay men than by straight women.

[Lookin]

Well, Actor, my friend, sounds like you may be contemplating a good-sized project with your young friend. Making up for years of substandard parenting is a lot of work, and there's no guarantee it can be done, especially with infrequent visits.

 

Though it sounds like he knows he needs the help, and that you could provide it. He's just not yet aware that he needs his own skin in the game.

 

This might also be an opportunity for you to learn a thing or two. He's already helped you determine your limits and, with luck, you'll get better at communicating them.

 

And, who knows, you might even get a hit out of it! http://www.boytoy.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/default/thumbsup.png

 

http://www.gayogunquit.com/images/200808151318370.myfairlady2.jpg

[Tonyko]

IF YOU WERE A STRAIGHT MAN HE MAY HAVE BEEN COMPLETELY DIFFERENT WITH YOU, and that I believe is what is at the core. Yes, to all that's been said, generational, inviornmental, all probably true. But you ARE a gay man and he knows you are a gay man who (like us all) is attracted to attractive young men, and while you may have no illusions and he may go out of his way to also stress it will never happen, it also EMPOWERS him. He obviously has issues in correct behavior on many fronts, as his employment assessment proves, but I can't help feeling this str8 boi sees a big - get out jail free - card when it comes to you. (like a hot secretary in a short skirt who thinks it don't matter that she can't type You said he chose to visit you over his OWN troubled family. Is it POSSIBLE his behavior (and inability to open his wallet) are things he COULDN'T get away with at home?? But feels he can with YOU?

[Inkeddudefla]

I read your post and didn't bother to read what others responded back to you. I thinks it's a classic older guy, younger guy cinereou. At 60+ years old what on earth do you have even remotely in commen with someone in their 20's? He was use to you paying for everything in the past so why should he think you wouldn't this go around!

 

I say lesson learned and if you honestly think that a guy in his 20's doesn't want or expect a man in his 60's to pay, host, etc......well guess again.

[Guest]

I say lesson learned and if you honestly think that a guy in his 20's doesn't want or expect a man in his 60's to pay, host, etc......well guess again.

 

I don't think that anyone is really questioning the fact that the sexagenerian will be footing most of the bill. That doesn't mean the 26 year-old needs to treat his benefactor as if he were a piece of shit. The young dancer apparently treats most people that way, then gets surprised when they don't want to have anything to do with him.

[+ WilliamM]

I don't think that anyone is really questioning the fact that the sexagenerian will be footing most of the bill

 

Why. It's not a sexual relationship; they are just friends. The only real reason is that the dancer no longer has a job.

 

I understand that the sexagenerian is attracted to the 26-year old. Sure it makes sense if the young guy was a decent person, but that we have learned, is not the case.

[gallahadesquire]

It always makes me sad to hear about people who do all the right things and don't get the treatment they deserve in return.

 

I respectfully disagree with those who categorize this as a generational difference. I have older friends (actually prefer them to people my age). I came from a lousy family with a lousy upbringing, and I value the hell out of anyone who shows me the slightest bit of support or kindness. As a recent college graduate I had nothing to offer my older friends in terms of material things, but I never said no to helping them with any thing I could, I never asked them buy me anything and when they did I was always sincerely grateful, and told them so.

 

I take great joy in knowing that I can now return the favor since I'm gainfully employed. ...

 

I take umbrage at this ... one does not pay it back: The older guy doesn't need the money etc. One pays it forward. I was housed, fed, and cared for by a gay couple when I first went to medical school.

I have not paid them back, they don't need it: But I have paid it forward.

[+ Gar1eth]

I take umbrage at this ... one does not pay it back: The older guy doesn't need the money etc. One pays it forward. I was housed, fed, and cared for by a gay couple when I first went to medical school.

I have not paid them back, they don't need it: But I have paid it forward.

 

I'd say it goes both ways. The point may not be that they need it. But tokens of appreciation-which I'm sure you've given them-are always welcome. Paying it forward and paying it back are both important.

 

Gman

[+ purplekow]

If something is given with with a pure heart, you can never pay it back. The gift is yours forever. You may respond in kind, but the idea of paying it back, demeans the gift.

Recognition of the gift is really all that is required. Paying it forward, shows you have learned the lesson that the gift is given without thought of reciprocation. Your issue is with his lack of recognition. Let it go. You have mentioned it and either you love this man like a son and will continue to see him, setting new boundaries or you will regret that even with your gift, he was unable or unwilling to conform to the standards that you had hopes that he would. No matter how much you tutor, there is no guarantee that a D student will become anything more than that.

[BaronArtz]

Actor61, I do entirely sympathize with you. I have had my crushes on 'straight' guys. I understand where you are coming from. It is tough. You have been given some excellent advice here. I can't add anything except maybe this: there is a question you need to ask yourself. Is it still worth it to you? When you meet your friend, is being annoyed a more powerful sentiment than really liking this guy? It may be a tough decision, and it is only yours to make. If it is not worth it to you anymore, if you see no change on the horizon, it may be better to just take a break. Be polite, thank him for the nice moments you had together and say you need a break from him. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that.

 

You seem to be a nice, generous person and I wish you will find somebody who will be more appreciative of all your efforts.

[rvwnsd]

There are several other people here, including me, who believe it is a generational thing. In my case, mixed with a bit of bad parenting. How many people in their 20s do you know well?

 

I know several people who are in their twenties on both a professional and personal level. Most of them would have the good sense to at least buy their host a cup of coffee and I'd say most of the most would treat their host to a meal if not cook for them. I also have friends who are in their fifties and sixties who behave in the same way as the 26 year old discussed in this thread. I think many forum members (and people in general) are too quick to chalk an individual's less than savory behavior up to "generational differences." It takes some critical thinking and analysis to see individuals as individuals rather than as members of a group. Would it be a fair and accurate statement to say the lack of critical thinking is a result of a generational difference, e.g. old people simply don't think as sharply as younger people? I don't think so.

 

Regarding the propensity to text and use their computers during meals, I see it more among twenty-somethings, but I also see middle-aged people incessantly checking their phones during meals, at coffee, etc. I'll grant you that many older people are slower at adopting technology (think of the many forum members who do not text) than younger people. I'm 51 and it amazes me how many forum members resist using technology such as email and text. In a similar fashion, it amazes me how many forum members don't try to solve technology issues (or any issue, for that matter) by trial and error. Would it be fair to chalk this up to a "generational difference," e.g. "old geezers are stuck in their ways, are afraid to figure things out on their own, and are afraid to try new things?" As above, I don't think that would be a fair characterization.

[rvwnsd]

I take umbrage at this ... one does not pay it back: The older guy doesn't need the money etc. One pays it forward. I was housed, fed, and cared for by a gay couple when I first went to medical school.

I have not paid them back, they don't need it: But I have paid it forward.

 

 

If something is given with with a pure heart, you can never pay it back. The gift is yours forever. You may respond in kind, but the idea of paying it back, demeans the gift.

Recognition of the gift is really all that is required. Paying it forward, shows you have learned the lesson that the gift is given without thought of reciprocation. Your issue is with his lack of recognition. Let it go. You have mentioned it and either you love this man like a son and will continue to see him, setting new boundaries or you will regret that even with your gift, he was unable or unwilling to conform to the standards that you had hopes that he would. No matter how much you tutor, there is no guarantee that a D student will become anything more than that.

 

Two excellent points, which I wish I would have thought of when I posted my reply. Thank you for making them, gallahad and PK.

[rvwnsd]

I don't think that anyone is really questioning the fact that the sexagenerian will be footing most of the bill. ...

 

Why. It's not a sexual relationship; they are just friends. The only real reason is that the dancer no longer has a job....

 

I'm confused by your reply. Do you think "sexagenerian" refers to someone who is in a sexual relationship?

[+ WilliamM]

I'm confused by your reply. Do you think "sexagenerian" refers to someone who is in a sexual relationship?

 

No, I do not think the word had anything to do with a sexual relationship.