Game of thrones wedding night rape scene. Did HBO go too far?

[marylander1940]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X3ZZ2Bj31kA

[sincitymix]

nope. rape happens, it happens in real life, it happens in novels and fantasy worlds. I like my game of thrones to be dark. I like the novels. I like the show. They need more peen.

[big-n-tall]

To answer your question... no. There have been far more brutal things shown on this show. They didn't show anything in this particularly scene with a lot of the actual rape heard and not seen.

 

Now I'm going to get on my soapbox for a bit.

I love America, I really do... but we have a truly ass backward view of sex and violence in this country. I remember people were all in a tizzy over the possibly/possibly not rape of Cersei by her brother Jaime last season. However, I never heard of anyone complaining about the very first scene, in the very first episode, showing Cersei and Jamie in the throws of passion (obviously consensually). For those who may not watch the show Cersei and Jamie are brother and sister with a long standing love affair that has bore multiple children. They were caught by Bran Stark (a child) and then proceeded to push him out a window to die... which they showed. And what about Ned Stark's head being loped off. I didn't hear people being up in a roar about showing that. Don't get me wrong, in no way am I condoning rape, but jeez if people are complaining about implied rape as going too far... maybe they shouldn't be watching the show at all.

 

We can show people being shot, blown up, slashed without a remark sometimes, but as soon as someone kisses (same sex specifically) or implies sex... OH MY GOD!!!! Protest time.

 

Ok, I'll go back to my corner now and sit quietly.

[sincitymix]

To answer your question... no. There have been far more brutal things shown on this show. They didn't show anything in this particularly scene with a lot of the actual rape heard and not seen.

 

Now I'm going to get on my soapbox for a bit.

I love America, I really do... but we have a truly ass backward view of sex and violence in this country. I remember people were all in a tizzy over the possibly/possibly not rape of Cersei by her brother Jaime last season. However, I never heard of anyone complaining about the very first scene, in the very first episode, showing Cersei and Jamie in the throws of passion (obviously consensually). For those who may not watch they show Cersei and Jamie are brother and sister with a long standing love affair that has bore multiple children. They were caught by Bran Stark (a child) and then proceeded to push him out a window to die... which they showed. And what about Ned Stark's head being loped off. I didn't hear people being up in a roar about showing that. Don't get me wrong, in no way am I condoning rape, but jeez if people are complaining about implied rape as going too far... maybe they shouldn't be watching the show at all.

 

We can show people being shot, blown up, slashed without a remark sometimes, but as soon as someone kisses (same sex specifically) or implies sex... OH MY GOD!!!! Protest time.

 

Ok, I'll go back to my corner now and sit quietly.

not to mention you can show full frontal nudity on a woman, but OMG THE HORROR!!! if a man shows Peen.

[marylander1940]

[marylander1940]

We ain't that backward...

 

[Okliehomo]

At last, GOT talk..... And no, I am not condoning rape, either. But the show is not set in modern times. Women were viewed as property and the husband was entitled to do whatever he wanted to.... Did you all see the strapping scene in "Outlander"?... same thing. Sure, domestic violence now. Not so much in the 16th century..... Hell, Ricky used to spank Lucy. And pretty sure Ethel did the same to Fred.....

 

But back on topic, in the books, Ramsay did way worse than that to other women. It just wasn't to Sansa Stark. The main outrage seems to be that viewers thought Sansa was getting stronger and about to control her own destiny, not be a victim like she was with Joffrey and Cersei. But she gave up that control when she married. Also, there has been griping before about the way woman are treated in general because the writers have added scenes especially degrading/violent toward woman that were not in the books. Jaime did not force himself on Cersei and he certainly did not do it with their dead son's body laying next to them. And Robb's wife was not at the Red Wedding but the writers added her and her baby to the carnage, stabbing her repeatedly in the stomach while Robb watched. So, there could be legitimate complaints about thier choices with woman...... but then again, Brienne never dueled with the Hound, either.

 

The writers have been quoted that they are no longer using the books as source material and frankly, in Sansa's case, they couldn't have. At the end of book 5, she is still in the Eyrie with Littlefinger. Ramsay is married to Jeyne Poole, a friend of Sansa's that Theon let them all believe was Arya Stark... and Ramsay made Theon go down on her "to get her wet" for the wedding night.... But what I was going to say, is I think the writers are building toward Sansa getting revenge against the Boltons and the Freys for the Red Wedding. Remember Roose Bolton is married to Walda Frey (Waldor's very fat daughter) and she is pregnant. I predict that Sansa will somehow kill that baby... a true Bolton heir, a true Frey.... either with Stannis and Melisandres's help or with Theon's. This wedding night "rape" was just another indignity that Sansa had to suffer to make the revenge even sweeter. I hope. Honestly, the worst part for me, was that Ramsay made Theon watch, a sick and cruel punishment for them both.

 

I think they should call this scene "The Red Bedding"....

[+ purplekow]

Unless I fell asleep, she bent over or was pushed over, her dress ripped off and a short scream and cut to black. There was no real nudity and the implication was that she was forced but she did not resist and while not an active participant, I am not even sure I would call it rape. Making the demasculinated Threon watch was very cruel on many levels. He knows her. He may have had a bit of a crush on her. He loved his cock and now it has been amputated by this animal of man who is demanding Threon watch as he does what Threon no longer can. And then the whole degradation for Sansa being handled in that way after the kindness shown to her by her former husband in not defiling her. Winter is coming....for the Bolton's and its name is Sansa. I would not be surprised if she becomes pregnant and then purposely aborts.

[body2body]

I agree completely with PK. The scene was not that explicit. Back in 2013 there was a very similar scene in "The White Queen" on Starz and there was no uproar. Of course far fewer people viewed that series set in England during the War of the Roses. Poor Theon, he had such a nice dick, that was amply displayed in the earliest episodes of the series.

[+ quoththeraven]

I bet you've been holding your breath wondering when I'd show up here. Well, here I am!

 

Okliehomo has the reasons for the outrage right. They have nothing to do with how graphic or explicit the scene was. Wouldn't you think most people watching GoT (women included), don't have a problem with that? (Btw, many women who watch GoT second your desire for more peen. Ah, for the days of Starz's Spartacus, which gave male parts and female parts closer to equal time.) They have everything to do with revulsion over sexualized violence aimed at women and its use as a plot device, walking back Sansa's advance toward personal agency, and centering the POV on Theon, as voyeur, rather than Sansa, as unwilling participant. It makes Theon's response to it more important than hers.

 

That's a pretty stark (ugh, terrible pun) demonstration that as far as the narrative is concerned (that is, in the storytelling, as opposed to in the story itself), a man's reaction to a woman's rape is more important than the woman's experience, similar to all those movies about racial issues that center on a white ally's POV, like Mississippi Burning, Glory, or Armistad (or Philadelphia, even, when it comes to gay men), and that women are always and only ever victims. Those of you who've been here awhile, remember when Steve Draker accused me of playing the victim card in a thread on the hacking and exposure of female celebrities' nude photos and posted a GIF of an obviously distraught woman crying? That image is the kind of thing I mean by "women are always and only ever victims."

 

For a good explanation of what all the fuss is about, see this: http://www.themarysue.com/we-will-no-longer-be-promoting-hbos-game-of-thrones/ (why the website The Mary Sue will no longer be recapping or otherwise promoting GoT)

 

To give you some context, the rape of women is used as a convenient and lazy plot device or angsty backstory in lots and lots of media, to the point where women wonder where there is a safe place to not have to hear about or read it. A "fan" of fantasy author Seanan McGuire's series (sorry, I don't read it, so I don't know the name) in which the main character is a badass-type woman once asked her, given how long the series was, when the character would be raped. Her response was "what?" And his was "oh yeah, it happened all the time in the setting in which you're writing (in other words, he assumed that a pre-modern fantasy setting has to replicate the presumed history of the medieval period), it's not realistic for her not to be raped." His comment came across as a way to take the character down a peg, make her more traditionally "feminine" by making her vulnerable, and titillate this "fan." Ms. McGuire's response was: "I will never rape my character." Presumably because she wants better for her! She wants her to be strong, conquer obstacles, and be the hero of her own story, as is so often not true for actual real-life women, who ought to be able to consume media that uplifts them and not just men all the time.

 

Let me also add that it's a fantasy setting. Whether rape is frequent and realistic, and the purpose it serves in the story, is up to the author (GRRM) and, in the case of a TV show, the producers and writers, who are the ones who are responsible here. The best explanation of this I've heard is "there's dragons, and yet rape is mandated to give it a realistic touch?" There is a feeling that this is more a figleaf to cover the fact that readers and viewers get a charge (sometimes a sexual one) out of this sort of dark material. Which is fine (in fiction) -- some women do too, under various circumstances, including women who've been rape victims. And everyone I know thinks it's A-OK in erotica, where the issue is what gets you off rather than narrative tidiness. But to say it's required to be realistic is a little disingenuous and dismissive as to what's really going on.

 

Think how you would feel about a media obsession with the brutal murder and death of gay men in fiction. Hello, Matthew Shepard! Or, maybe more to the point, with giving gay men and women in fiction unrelentingly tragic endings. After all, it's realistic! Gay pulps were created specifically as an antidote to that. That tradition continues today with gay and m/m romances written by men and women. (Sorry, guyz, I think the ladies have you beat on that score.)

 

Viewers are entitled to their varying opinions of the show (mine is that while often entertaining, it isn't as all that as people think), including that this is no big deal. But making wrong assumptions about the reasons for the outrage is just...wrong.

 

PK -- Dress ripped off and a scream = lack of consent = rape. Rape is non-consensual penetrative sex. (Which includes oral and anal.) You made my point with regard to Theon.

 

Oklie -- I hope you're right about where they're headed. But there are some people who have jumped off the GoT train for good because of this.

 

And before anyone asks: no, I didn't see the episode. I saw all of last season, but I no longer have HBO. I forgot about Looking when I chose not to subscribe to HBO and missed its second and final season. Ah well.

 

Also, this thread belongs in the Lounge -- only live performing arts are supposed to be discussed in Comedy & Tragedy -- and I reported this to management before commenting. So don't be surprised if it's moved.

[+ purplekow]

PK -- Dress ripped off and a scream = lack of consent = rape. Rape is non-consensual penetrative sex. (Which includes oral and anal.) You made my point with regard to Theon.

 

 

Well in regard to this being rape or not. I have had my clothes ripped off and I was not raped. I have screamed during the sex act and not been raped. In this scene, she is starting to take her clothes off, the camera carefully pans to her starting to remove her clother, albeit with trepidation and she never says no. Ongoing screams, might be expected in the sexual act with a virgin especially if the act is violent. So while those screams are disturbing, they do not mean rape. So while I agree that the scene is difficult to watch and violent and that the character of Ramsey is a sadistic bully and personification of evil, I am not convinced this is rape. Degrading sex act, yes. For me, not rape.

As far as the character of Sansa is concerned, she presents a complex constellation of characteristics. She has been portrayed as virginal and innocent and then a victim of cruelty. Ultimately she has grown stronger and wise, but has remained virginal. I think that is the main reason this scene is disturbing. The figurative and literal abrupt and unkind loss of innocence. She has been coerced into marrying this man and while she may have been hoping to avoid the sex act. as she had with her first husband, the character has made the choice to go ahead with the marriage and reluctantly, she has moved to the bedroom and it seems she has decided to consummate the marriage. At this point in her life, with this man, she will never want to have sex. She is not defiantly marching forward and using the sex act as part of her plan, but she has agreed to go ahead with the plan Littlefinger has laid out to her and in that way, she is a willing participant in this plan. Deny it to herself as she may, she was aware that eventually, time in the marital chamber would come.

 

 

This is a violent and sexual show with explicit story lines which includes mental torture, physical torture, unspeakable cruelty of all kinds of levels. I think Theon's reaction to watching this unfold, will eventually be pivotal to his regaining his lost manhood, figuratively if not literally. We are well aware that his manhood has been sent in a box to his father.

I believe this show has fleshed out complex characters with strong points of view. Male and female characters have been portrayed as good and evil, victims and perpetrators, leaders and followers. The most powerful characters are women. The most evil characters are women. The most admirable characters are women. In this case, the most sympathetic character is a woman, but I do not believe she was raped.

[+ quoththeraven]

PK -- You're right that ripping clothes off and a scream don't always mean that, but in the context of the scene and a desire not to have another long drawn-out scene like the one between Jaime and Cersei, it was meant to imply rape. I also believe the showrunners and actress accept the characterization of this as a rape, which to my mind is pretty much conclusive. They simply didn't make it explicit, unlike the Jaime/Cersei scene, which was graphic and which the showrunners didn't consider to be rape. I believe that correlation to be deliberate (if the showrunners think it's rape, the actual act won't be shown, but if they don't, it will)

 

Different people draw the line in different places and have different views of gender dynamics, and that's their prerogative, as I note above. But those for whom the scene was a bridge too far have a well-reasoned basis for it. It's just not how you feel about it.

 

I disagree with your assessment of the female characters, though I'm not sure which ones you mean. (Keep in mind I've seen none of this season's episodes.) The closest thing to a powerful female character of importance is Dany, but for all her power, she's untried and doesn't have wisdom. All her advisers are men. I like the idea of her character, but she's barely competent as a leader.

 

Brienne is powerful and exceptional, but she's a side character. Arya's been lucky as well as smart, but she's too young to wind up winning the GoT unless I miss my guess. I would not mind that, but she also has been criticized as normalizing the view that a woman has to act like and be seen as a man to exercise power -- in other words, that men and masculinity are the default in this world, and women the exception. Kinda ironic considering we all started out female in the womb. But maybe she'll reclaim her feminine side and combine them. (In the sense that we all have male and female hormones unless something's awry, we all have a combination of masculine and feminine characteristics, and part of maturing is combining those characteristics in a way that's true to oneself, not society.)

 

Maybe Cersei will gain real power now that Tywin is dead, but I doubt it. She's been too affected by the many years in which her father relegated her to the background because she was a woman when she was the one most suited for a leadership role.

 

I've read too many LiveJournal essays about the books and TV show for someone who's barely watched the series.

[big-n-tall]

I disagree with your assessment of the female characters, though I'm not sure which ones you mean. (Keep in mind I've seen none of this season's episodes.) The closest thing to a powerful female character of importance is Dany, but for all her power, she's untried and doesn't have wisdom. All her advisers are men. I like the idea of her character, but she's barely competent as a leader.

 

Brienne is powerful and exceptional, but she's a side character. Arya's been lucky as well as smart, but she's too young to wind up winning the GoT unless I miss my guess. I would not mind that, but she also has been criticized as normalizing the view that a woman has to act like and be seen as a man to exercise power -- in other words, that men and masculinity are the default in this world, and women the exception. Kinda ironic considering we all started out female in the womb. But maybe she'll reclaim her feminine side and combine them. (In the sense that we all have male and female hormones unless something's awry, we all have a combination of masculine and feminine characteristics, and part of maturing is combining those characteristics in a way that's true to oneself, not society.)

 

Maybe Cersei will gain real power now that Tywin is dead, but I doubt it. She's been too affected by the many years in which her father relegated her to the background because she was a woman when she was the one most suited for a leadership role.

 

I've read too many LiveJournal essays about the books and TV show for someone who's barely watched the series.

 

On a side note...

I don't think Dany will be the overall ruler by book's/show's end. It's to obvious a build up. She may sit on the iron throne but either she won't hold it for long or she'll share power with someone unexpected. Just my two cents.

[+ purplekow]

Just a few of the strong women, and I am bad with the names. Diana Riggs character is cunning and no nonsense. She is a definite power player.

Cersei has taken a much more forceful and manipulative role.

Melesandre is the driving force behind Stannus Barathean.

Though theirs is a side story, the sister who is taking Brenn Stark to the tree up north is strong and insightful

The ex wife of the Prince of Dorn and his daughters are powerful women not afraid of a fight. Granted they are not likely to cede power from the Princes brother, but still fierce woman making decisions and acting on them in strong and sometimes violent ways.

Brianne is the most admirable character in the entire series. She is loyal, focused and true to herself in every way possible.

Dany of course, led her people into the desert and made the decisions that brought her to power. Now she relies on more experienced hands to help her rule, but she definitely is the ruler.

So there are eight strong women,without going into the Starks, Arya, Sansa and their late mother and crazy aunt.

Even Stannus Barathan' daughter has strength and intelligence not usually exhibited by such a young character.

And while I agree, that none of these women will likely reign long on the Iron Throne, I do not believe that any of the characters will do that, as I think apocalypse is the most likely endpoint and in that regard, the male and the female characters will be treated the same.

[+ purplekow]

PK -- You're right that ripping clothes off and a scream don't always mean that, but in the context of the scene and a desire not to have another long drawn-out scene like the one between Jaime and Cersei, it was meant to imply rape. I also believe the showrunners and actress accept the characterization of this as a rape, which to my mind is pretty much conclusive.

 

You inferred rape.

I inferred trepidation, cruelty and violence and definitely unwanted sexual contact, but if they wanted to make it rape, they needed to have her fail to start to remove her clothes and she needed to say no. Was she violated, yes. To my mind, she was not raped. That being said, if I can make a cogent argument that it was not rape, and it was intended for it to be rape, they clearly did not go too far. In fact, they did not go far enough to convince me.

[sincitymix]

You inferred rape.

I inferred trepidation, cruelty and violence and definitely unwanted sexual contact, but if they wanted to make it rape, they needed to have her fail to start to remove her clothes and she needed to say no. Was she violated, yes. To my mind, she was not raped. That being said, if I can make a cogent argument that it was not rape, and it was intended for it to be rape, they clearly did not go too far. In fact, they did not go far enough to convince me.

 

not to mention she must have known it was her "womanly" and "wifely" duty to submit to her husbands lusts on her wedding night.