HOOBOYS FROM BRAZIL

[marc anthony]

RE: When In Rome, do as the Romans?

 

>

>Is this why "regular" or local clients may resent the

>appearance of foreigners who appear on the scene with big

>bucks and command the services of the same guys they are

>clients of? I don't know the answers to these questions. Maybe

>it's of no consequence. But I suspect that if there were more

>than one Oz acting the same way, it wouldn't take long before

>these kinds of resentments would appear.

 

First let me say that I too know Oz... and I know that he is fun to be with and more relevant to this discussion, he really does feel genuine affection for most boys that he hires.

 

The more interesting issue is an age old one. It has been discussed a lot (both in the South American forum and also less extensively in the Strip Club forum especially relevant to Montreal). It is that issue of paying in excess when in a foreign venue.

 

I suspect this controversy will NEVER be resolved because this escort client transaction is actually a pretty unique one. You are buying sex... and necessarily that means in many cases you are buying emotions.

 

There are a few visitors who WILL throw around large sums of money as tips to taxi drivers and wait help, etc. The important distinction to make between this situation and the escort situation is that 1) this is rare, and 2) no one would care if they did. In the escort situation (obviously by the fact it continues to come up) 1) it is not rare and 2) a lot of people care.

 

Why? Emotion. People are excessive because they are happy. They want to reciprocate the pleasure they were delivered OR they want their own feelings to be reciprocated (and hope generosity will facilitate that). And they want it (due the so very important factor of personal taste and chemistry in this particular transaction) with THAT boy! No one can deny that people actually develop FEELINGS for these boys.

 

On the other hand, others resent that. They want access. They want affordability. They don't want competition. And they want it with THAT boy! Again, no one can deny that people actually develop FEELINGS for these boys.

 

I don't think this issue will ever be resolved because it is truly a perspective issue. For the traveller, taking a fantasy vacation, meets the "guy of his dreams" who shows him great attention and affection... expect generosity. And often expect it to be excessive. For the local regular who is trying to hire his weekly regular with the same budget, and really wants this boy not that one because he is attracted to him, and finds that he is occupied by a tourist, or has taken a vacation because he just hit the jackpot with a rich john, or has raised his rates because his ego and pocket was just inflated by an excessive tipper... expect resentment.

 

I have been in both situations. I know how easy it is to feel both ways.

 

All I can say is that you talk about it on a message board, but you really can't change the feelings or behavior of others. All you can do is control your own actions. And I continue to believe that there really can't be anything wrong with treating a boy you like well... whether that be with money or with genuine consideration and respect. And if you do that, in the case of escort/client, just because of the nature of the beast, that trumps simple economic theory.

[trilingual]

RE: When In Rome, do as the Romans?

 

All you can do is control your own actions. And I

>continue to believe that there really can't be anything wrong

>with treating a boy you like well... whether that be with

>money or with genuine consideration and respect. And if you

>do that, in the case of escort/client, just because of the

>nature of the beast, that trumps simple economic theory.

 

Whether it's Brazil, Bangkok, Berlin or Boston, feelings and emotions aren't very different. I too have met Oz, and understand his feelings (although I can't personally afford his level of generosity). He certainly isn't a bad person, far from it!

 

Nevertheless, acting heedlessly of local custom and the local economy, wherever you are, can backfire and get you into trouble. It also screws things up for everyone else who lives in that economy. I can only urge visitors abroad to use good sense and NOT behave in ways that distort the local economy or make them look utterly foolish.

 

Using Brazil as an example, please keep in mind that R$50 is a fair payment for a half-hour romp in the hay at a sauna. The rate is set by the guys and by the local economy, and they're pleased to get that (especially during low season when business can be very slow in the more tourist-dependent cities like Rio). R$50 will buy a couple of weeks worth of bus fares, ten meals at an inexpensive restaurant, or cover perhaps 20 - 25% of a guy's monthly rent!!! In spite of the favorable rate of exchange for Americans and Europeans, please don't make the mistake of thinking that R$50 isn't real money. IT IS!!! So please don't overpay or overtip! (Of course, R$50 for a session covers a relatively short period of time. If you hire someone from an agency, or for an overnight, expect to pay more, but not much more than R$80 - R$100).

 

That being said, it's true that emotions get involved, and many visitors want to show their appreciation in some way. That's fine, but again, keep it within reason. There's nothing the matter with buying (or bringing) gifts for the guys you like. T-shirts with things in English or other foreign languages are something the guys like, as is nice cologne or a pair of jeans. A pair of good athletic shoes is a much-appreciated gift (but it's not smart to buy US$300 ones, or a US$800 pair of pants).

 

Inviting guys you like to dinner or to a concert/event is also a nice thing to do, as is taking them along for a weekend trip if you're going somewhere like Parati (where you're not likely to be meeting someone else, anyway). In the latter case, of course, you'll also have to pay them something for their time, like R$80 - R$100 per day.

 

Tipping is perfectly acceptable, but again, only if it's within reason. An extra R$20 on top of a R$50 fee is a generous tip (especially in a country where the customary tip is 10%). If you've been with a guy for a week or two on a semi-exclusive basis, giving him an extra R$100 - R$200 when you're leaving isn't unreasonable.

 

Also, keep in mind that if you make "special friends" with any of the guys, you'll probably be the recipient in the future of occasional requests for monetary assistance. If you like the guy and expect to see him in the future, sending 100 dollars or euros a couple of times a year, or at Xmas or their birthday (if you know it), is also reasonable.

 

Keep in mind that the emotions thing runs in two directions. Treating the guys with respect and dignity goes a very long way. They don't get a lot of that from their local clients, who tend to think of them (and treat them) as whores, at worst, or as just being lower-class, at best. (Brazil can be a very "class-ist" society.) One of the reasons the M4M crowd has become so popular among many of the guys in Rio is that for the most part we DO treat them respectfully and as friends. They don't get much of that, and they deeply appreciate it.

 

Many of the guys are a long way from home, and others are estranged from their families because they're gay or because of how they're earning a living. In spite of being professional sex workers, a lot of the guys are really starved for friendship, kindness and affection. Again, they appreciate (and even crave) the kindness and affection many foreign visitors show them, and that's why they enjoy being with them. And that's something that doesn't cost any money, at all!!!

 

So please remember, you can be kind, affectionate, generous and appreciative in many ways, and you SHOULD demonstrate that to the guys you like. Just keep it within reason, and don't go off the deep end. Going overboard won't actually earn you any more reciprocal affection or friendship. Instead, it's like to make the recipient of excessive largesse feel that you're a fool and someone who can be taken advantage of. It's also likely to anger or create jealousy and resentment among other guys who aren't sharing in the bounty, not to mention pissing off other clients, both local and foreign.

 

Avoid that. Keep your expressions of generosity and affection within reason and within the context of the local economy. In the long run both you and the recipients of your affection/generosity will be better off for it!

[+ Axiom2001]

RE: When In Rome, do as the Romans?

 

"It makes no sense in going far overboard!" I wholeheartedly agree!

If ...Oz had given his guys the R$50 plus $R20 for tip, the guys would have appreciated it! Also, R$800=US 282 for pants tends to be mighty, mighty much. Can the guy keep up with the lifestyle once Oz leaves Brasil?

 

I've been to Brasil three times and am planning on a fourth, I hope, within the next four months; I had a SUPER-GRAND time during two of my three visits, but I was not overly generous with my money. I definitely treated the people with the respect in which they treated me. I paid the guys at the sauna their going rate plus tip: all parties were satisfied.

 

Oz's sagas have been interesting, and his personal email and information to me have been appreciated, but I am indeed baffled in the manner in which he spent his money while in Brasil. Yes, it's his money, but I think he's setting a precedent in this department!

[+ Axiom2001]

RE: When In Rome, do as the Romans?

 

Excellently stated, Luv2Play! Muito Obrigado! AXiom....

[TotallyOz]

RE: When In Rome, do as the Romans?

 

>"It makes no sense in going far overboard!" I wholeheartedly

>agree!

>If ...Oz had given his guys the R$50 plus $R20 for tip, the

>guys would have appreciated it! Also, R$800=US 282 for pants

>tends to be mighty, mighty much. Can the guy keep up with the

>lifestyle once Oz leaves Brasil?

 

I guess I don't see it as MIGHYT much. He was with me 24 hours a day for over 1 week. I wonder if I did too little as opposed to too much?

 

When I go shopping with someone, and I buy something I want, I want them to have the same privilage as I have. I left out of the scenario that I also spent as much on myself the day we went shopping as he did.

 

>

>I've been to Brasil three times and am planning on a fourth, I

>hope, within the next four months; I had a SUPER-GRAND time

>during two of my three visits, but I was not overly generous

>with my money. I definitely treated the people with the

>respect in which they treated me. I paid the guys at the sauna

>their going rate plus tip: all parties were satisfied.

>

 

I too paid the going rate at the saunas. Plus a tip. Often the guys I took to my hotel room were the ones I was very generous with. At the same time, no one ever "watched the clock." Several spent the night with us, took nothing from our room, teated us with respect and a tip was something I could affored and didn't matter as much to me as it did to them.

 

>Oz's sagas have been interesting, and his personal email and

>information to me have been appreciated, but I am indeed

>baffled in the manner in which he spent his money while in

>Brasil. Yes, it's his money, but I think he's setting a

>precedent in this department!

 

Thank Ax. I appreciate that. You seem like a nice man and I hope to meet up with you sometime.

 

You are also right. It is my money. I worked hard for it. $100US means little to me in the long run and may make a major difference in someone else's life. Or, it may not. But, let me live in my dream world for a bit and believe it will be put to good use. I know the pants were put to good use as we went clubbing and he was looking fucking hot in them. I think I came 3 times just watching him dance with my BF that night. That is less than $100 a load. Not a bad price I would say.

 

Lastly, I don't think me being generous to a dozen or two sauna boys in 2 large Brazilian cities (one much larger than NYC) will set a bad precedent. I don't even think it will have an effect on someone that meets the boys after I left.

 

The only boy I was VERY generous with spent over 1 week with me. And he deserved everything I gave him and more. I have no regrets for being nice to him and if he asks for me to send him money to Brazil, I would do that as well without question. I am not as naive as I may sound. even though you may not agree with my decisions.

 

I knew I was putting myself at risk when I got into the conversation but every once in a while on this board, I just have to respond with exactly what I think and feel. This was one of those times and I have no regrets.

 

Axiom, now, if we meet in the future, can I buy you a drink?

[TotallyOz]

RE: When In Rome, do as the Romans?

 

Tri,

 

Thanks for your response. I am always willing to listen to someone and love to hear different opinions.

 

Your organization of the South of the USA board is great and you are a wealth of information. Thank you so much for everything. My trip to Brazil was great and was greatly enhanced by your posts.

[Funseeker 22]

RE: When In Rome, do as the Romans?

 

Now Oz !!

Just checked on this post and see that you became "Totally" out of control in Brazil.

Love You Man, but let me know when you`re going to be down there again so that I can reschedule. I can`t afford to keep up with your tipping generousity and might not want sloppy seconds (lol).

P.S. Aren`t you glad that you volunteered all of this information?.

P.P.S. Who`s the boy who got treated so well?.

P.S. You can buy me a drink too when I am next in NYC or I`ll buy you one in LA.

[Guest Utopia]

RE: When In Rome, do as the Romans?

 

>>

>I too paid the going rate at the saunas. Plus a tip. Often

>the guys I took to my hotel room were the ones I was very

>generous with. At the same time, no one ever "watched the

>clock."

 

Of course no one watched the clock, it's a poor economy no one can afford one. Now, thanks to you, they can buy 30 clocks ... So on top of your excessive tipping and raising the financial expectations of pay I guess you now have created a nation of clock watching escorts. }(

 

Just a little humor Oz though I do disagree with your excessive tipping, it's your choice.

[Guest YFSC]

RE: When In Rome, do as the Romans?

 

>Is this why "regular" or local clients may resent the

>appearance of foreigners who appear on the scene with big

>bucks and command the services of the same guys they are

>clients of? I don't know the answers to these questions. Maybe

>it's of no consequence. But I suspect that if there were more

>than one <xxxxxx> acting the same way, it wouldn't take long before

>these kinds of resentments would appear.

 

(This is a general comment, not directed towards the specific individuals or situations mentioned above.)

 

This applies to a very large number of countries and in the widest possible sorts of situations, mostly having nothing at all to do with sex. It is, of course, part of the "ugly American" stereotype, though it applies to persons of other nationalities too. Like any stereotype, it is overgeneralized, but also like any stereotype, it is at least partly rooted in fact. And it clearly *has* led to resentment in many quarters.

[TotallyOz]

RE: When In Rome, do as the Romans?

 

>P.S. Aren`t you glad that you volunteered all of this

>information?.

 

Not really. I was told the less said, the better.

 

>P.P.S. Who`s the boy who got treated so well?

 

That one will have to remain a mystery as he will be coming to NYC soon. But, I do have pics.

 

>P.S. You can buy me a drink too when I am next in NYC or I`ll

>buy you one in LA.

 

I would love to meet you. Your posts always make me smile. Although, I don't always agree with everyone, I can say I have met M4M'ers all over the place and enjoy meeting each of them. And, LA has been calling my name recently. I am sure, I will be heading down that yellow brick road before too long.

[TotallyOz]

RE: When In Rome, do as the Romans?

 

>Of course no one watched the clock, it's a poor economy no one

>can afford one. Now, thanks to you, they can buy 30 clocks ...

>So on top of your excessive tipping and raising the financial

>expectations of pay I guess you now have created a nation of

>clock watching escorts.

>

>Just a little humor Oz though I do disagree with your

>excessive tipping, it's your choice.

 

I just had to clean my sofa. I laughed so hard I pee'd in my pants. Thank you for ending my night laughing. Asparagus is not the best to eat when you have an unexpected burst of laughter.

[HooBoy]

RE: When In Rome, do as the Romans?

 

When in Rome?

How about in Alabama in 1840?

 

I have lived in Japan too, where tipping is considered an insult.

 

What I gather from the discussion here is lack of respect -- not acceptance of poverty for my carnal pleasures.

 

I cannot share what I know about the boys yet. I am learning the hard way that I am up against a powerful force on one side and rampant stupidity on the other. Bottom line: it is sad. I do not want to upset your economy but your reasoning baffles me, frankly.

 

Yes, I tip taxi drivers when they deserve it. I offer gratuity to everyone I come in contact that deserves it . Except in Japan.

 

In Brazil, to offer a guy a meal or a drink that costs less than $10USD is hardly what I would consider "over tipping."

 

Maybe I just care too much and it really doesn't matter. After all, they are spending 10 hours a day hoping to land at least 3 customers for USD $18.

 

So a guy stole a lot of money from me. We've been amigos a long time and he called me tonight.

 

Thank god I know he is safe.

 

Had he only communicated with me his situation, he could have had anything from me. And a friend for life.

[trilingual]

RE: Affording It. . .

 

When it comes to overtipping and extravagance abroad in a country like Brazil, where the exchange rate is very favorable to people with dollars and euros, the issue isn't being able to afford it. To one degree or another, any of us can afford to do that.

 

The issue is acting reasonably within the context of the country and economy you're in (not to mention the culture, in some cases). Oz, I know you're a generous guy, but it's possible to be generous without being excessive. That's all I'm really saying here. I know it's REALLY easy to go overboard in Brazil; it's such a magical place and especially on a first trip there it's not uncommon for a visitor to become kind of bedazzled by the wonder of it all! But in the long run, it's better for you as well as for the boys if you rein in the largesse. Evidently you were lucky in the guys you met, but there are certainly plenty of guys out there who would think that someone spreading around that much money is a fool who's asking to be taken advantage of. This has happened to other foreign visitors, and they left Brazil with something of a bitter taste in their mouths as a result.

 

So feel free to express your appreciation and generosity, but please keep it in proportion to the real world that Brazilians live and work in. Believe me, you will still be able to do lots of nice things for the guys you like, which they will very much appreciate in return, without spending with abandon! In fact, you will probably earn MORE respect from the guys if you don't go overboard, because Brazilians particularly value common sense and good judgement (the word "juizo," meaning judgement, is frequently used as a warning or reminder to friends or relatives who are about to act foolishly). When you demonstrate that you know how things work in Brazil and that you behave reasonably, and have your feet firmly planted on the ground, that will increase, rather than decrease, the guys' admiration for you.

 

And that's about all I've got to say on this topic!

[TotallyOz]

RE: Affording It. . .

 

> In fact, you will probably earn MORE respect from the guys if

>you don't go overboard, because Brazilians particularly value

>common sense and good judgement (the word "juizo," meaning

>judgement, is frequently used as a warning or reminder to

>friends or relatives who are about to act foolishly). When

>you demonstrate that you know how things work in Brazil and

>that you behave reasonably, and have your feet firmly planted

>on the ground, that will increase, rather than decrease, the

>guys' admiration for you.

>

>And that's about all I've got to say on this topic!

 

 

Me thinks that is a crock of shit. sorry.

[trilingual]

RE: When In Rome, do as the Romans?

 

Oz, you may feel that what I have to say is a crock, but do reflect on HooBoy's experience before you take a definitive position! However, take into consideration that I speak the language fluently and have been going to Brazil for a long time, so I've had a chance to listen to and get to know the guys, and I know who they consider to be "idiotas" or "babacas." The kind of person the guys admire and really WANT to be with is someone like Tomcal (whom they adore) who treats them very well indeed, but without being ridiculous about it.

 

And Hoo, a meal or gift that costs US$10 isn't my idea of being extravagant. I think that's well within the limits of reasonableness. Giving tips that are 100% or more, or buying a poor kid from a working-class neighborhood something that costs US$800 is over the top. There are times when too much really can be too much! Fortunately, though, there's a happy medium between being miserly and being ridiculously free with your money, and that's all I recommend: find that happy medium and stick with it.

 

Oz, as I said earlier, show your appreciation and affection, by all means. But the guys will appreciate a hot pair of jeans from Taco (R$30) or some nice athletic shoes (R$100 or so) or some imported brand-name cologne from the duty-free shop (US$30), all of which are nice gifts without being excessive. As other posters have noted, many of the guys have never been up to Corcovado or Sugar Loaf because it's kind of expensive in local terms. If they've never been, they'll appreciate and enjoy being invited to go with you. If you stay more or less in this kind of range, you'll find lots of nice ways to express your appreciation without seeming either excessive or foolish.

[Guest sucker]

RE: When In Rome, do as the Romans?

 

>But they are so accosomted to knowing that the Americans and

>the local elite are jsut out for their cheap trick;

 

I have been to Brasil three times in the past year and my experience as an American with the suana boys has always been positive.

 

It is not always about money, and the respect that these boys deserve is not always measured in how large a tip they get. They appreciate our kindess, whether its inviting them to a party or giving them a pair of designer shorts.

When we go to the saunas we buy the boys drinks and food, even some of the ones we are not dating....it is a big festa!

The same goes for when we go to Coriginhas for food at midnite...we party with many of the boys, not just the ones we have dated.

 

They look foward to our arrival. We are not just out for a cheap trick....we date many of them repeatedly because the price is so reasonable...to wit, Tomcal who is there now, pumping the rio economy with USA dollars and spreading them among as many boys as he can!

 

You are entering into an ongoing business relationship with these boys and that is alot different than dating them at a sauna.

 

Naturally they are mistrustful....because you are relating to them not only as a friend who wants to help them make more money, but as a businessman who will also make money every time they shower/XXX on your new site.

 

One final thought.

The scene is much different in Sao Paulo than RIO because of the beach.

Cariocas are different.....in Rio sexuality is so natural that even gay sex is not frowned upon as it is in most other places.

 

You are trying to capitalize and thus commercialize the bountiful talents of these men, and in the process, I hope that doesnt screw up the mutually beneficial relationship many of us have enjoyed on our trips to Brazil with the love boys, as one of my local friends called them.

Anyway, good luck in your endeavors!

[TotallyOz]

RE: When In Rome, do as the Romans?

 

>Oz, as I said earlier, show your appreciation and affection,

>by all means. But the guys will appreciate a hot pair of

>jeans from Taco (R$30) or some nice athletic shoes (R$100 or

>so) or some imported brand-name cologne from the duty-free

>shop (US$30), all of which are nice gifts without being

>excessive. As other posters have noted, many of the guys have

>never been up to Corcovado or Sugar Loaf because it's kind of

>expensive in local terms. If they've never been, they'll

>appreciate and enjoy being invited to go with you. If you

>stay more or less in this kind of range, you'll find lots of

>nice ways to express your appreciation without seeming either

>excessive or foolish.

 

Tri, I do really respect your opinion. I think you have a lot of offer any discussion and your intelect always impresses me. We just have to agree to disagree. BTW: I did take my boy to Sugar Load and Corcovado(his first time to both) and to many other places on the trip. You are right, he loved it there and the pictures we took are wonderful. As I talked to him on the phone an hour ago, he wanted me to tell you that he loved visiting those places but that he appreciated his pants more. :)

 

And, as all good things much come to an end, so too must my discussion on this topic.

 

I have a feeling that I will not be welcomed in Brazil with open arms on my next visit. So I have decided to bring a bit of Brazil to America. When I get him in NYC, I will then be able to pay what the locals pay. }( }( }(

[Guest msclonly]

I am wondering if Hooboy knows for sure, it was one of the boys or someone, like a hotel person or even total stranger.

 

I think one of the problems with excessive tipping or extravagent gift stories getting around are 'reasons' Americans and other tourists are marked targets by the less reputable or honest natives, be they sauna boys, hotel employees, or street guys and groups of children. That must be why we form 'gangs' or groups to walk back to the hotel at nite.

 

Money does buy a lot of attention and short duration friendships until something better comes along or the next tourist in line steps forward.

 

This is my 2Reals worth and is not meant to put down the fine upstanding guys you meet in Brazil.