"To Pay Or Not To Pay"...The VERDICT Is In !

[Bilbo]

RE:

 

Yes, we did not offer our impressions of your actions unasked. You specifically asked for them. You also seem to me to have carefully tailored your first account of what happened between the two of you to pull forth exactly the responses you got. Those of us who wondered if the event had happened are actually right. It did not happen exactly as we had been lead to think that it happened. There were many details left out which you have now carefully supplied in a time and place of your own devising. You seem to me to have treated us in a deceitful manner. However, you have perhaps taught us a lesson, perhaps a much needed one. While some pointed out on the other thread that we only had one side of the story, we should now quit assuming that we have one side of the story and ask a lot of questions, waiting patiently for their answers before we ever lay down decisions, even though we have been asked to do so by the very title of the thread. Congratulations, but now, should you wish it, you'll have to work a little bit to get back my full trust.

[Guest msclonly]

This just proves, that the ......

 

Future works out different from what we plan! That makes life more fun living, if we are open to the possibilities of the Universe instead of living 'negatively!

 

I feel that there were some major CURVES thrown to us in the original post to be on the Jury by omission of the close friendship and plans for travel in the wonderful almost 'wildenss' of the mountain in Denali Park prior to the phone call playback! I have camped in Denali and am a Professional Amateur Photographer, as well. Perhaps there will be room for me on the June trip and we can celebrate my birthday on the slope. Hopefully the clouds will clear and we can see the world better! Anyway, evidence was with held from the jury. Maybe to make it more of a fantasy test case, rather then 'just the facts'. But I am happy with my grade, anyway!

[Guest alanm]

RE: Denali "Wilderness Camping"

 

I want to approach this story from a whole different angle, since I also spent part of two wonderful summers camping in Denali. I only hope that I do not come off as self satisfied and ego driven as Mikel does in his posting. I am in the strange position of trying to remove the mythology from the "Wilderness Camping."

 

Denali is a national park the size on the state of Massachusetts.

Camp sites are at a premium and you do have you book far ahead of time. Yes, there certainly are dangers, especially if you venture of

the main park road and walk for miles into the wildnerness. My

experiences include being chased by a charging moose and narrowly missing walking upon a mother grizzly bear feeding her young cub

from the morning kill. On the other hand, you can stay on the main park road, emjoy your assigned camp site and still see some of the

most interesting animals in the U. S. up close and person. I took

both trips in early September when the park was less crowded and you can more easily venture off into the wilderness without the park buses

to content with (after the bus season ends you can use your own car on the one road in, out and through of the mamouth park).

 

It is a great vacation, very different from what is you usually mentioned on this site. Is it more adventurous and exciting than traveling around Brazil or Australia? Not to me. But, we all have our own opinion.

 

I do envy you for visiting other parks in Alaska. I hope that I have a change to do that as well some day.

[Rick Munroe]

RE:

 

>Now you would think that on this site - which, remember, is

>devoted to reviewing the conduct of escorts -- that everyone

>would agree that it's dishonorable and bad for an escort to

>make an appointment with a client and then just cancel (on the

>same day) because he felt like it.

>

>And yet, not only did that conduct not bother the vast

>majority of posters here,

 

Huh? Doug, I just read that entire thread and it looked to me like most people did not take the side of the escort:

 

[ul][li]mmk: "I do not think that the escort was entitled to anything at all"

[li]vinotino: "in my view you owe him nothing at all"

[li]Kenny021: "the escort should be named for breaking an appointment for NO GOOD REASON"

[li]Charlie: "I would have been appalled that he cancelled his appointment with you in order to have sex with someone else (you)...I would have done something during the sex to make him regret not playing by the rules"

[li]Cougar speaks of the "lack of respect by the escort for a client who is going to pay him for his time"

[li]Unicorn: "The escort's behavior is more troublesome to me"

[li]Utopia: "look how quicky this escort cancelled his appointment...The escort is to blame in this little made up game"

[li]Alanm: "I do not think the escort deserves to be paid"

[li]Merlin: "He unfairly cancelled his paying appointment"[/ul]

 

Doug, it seems like you're just reading certain posts and conveniently ignoring all of the others, just to make the erroneous point you're always trying to make: that escorts are only fawned over here. Bad boy.

 

>most of them - the escorts and their

>stock, blindly adulating worshippers - were completely vicious

>in attacking the client whose appointment was cancelled

 

Again, it looks to me like "most of them" spoke of the lack of honesty and respect on both sides. The only viciousness I've read in all of this is your post to which I'm replying. But that's why we love you. :*

[Doug69]

RE:

 

Rick - it isn't exactly a shock that you would object to anyone criticizing the Escort Worshipping Pathologies in which this forum is drowning, given that you are one of the most shameless milkers and drinkers of this disgusting phenomenon (but hey, it's why we love you :*).

 

>Huh? Doug, I just read that entire thread and it

>looked to me like most people did not take the side of

>the escort:

 

Ever hear of projection? It's when you accuse someone of doing something which you yourself just did, as in: "it seems like you're just reading certain posts and conveniently ignoring all of the others, just to make the erroneous point you're always trying to make": that escorts are not unduly worshipped here.

 

You skipped over every single post which slammed Mikel as though he lacked all integrity and character - a rather remarkable attack given that it was the escort who cancelled the appoitnment for no good reason, and at worst, Mikel was guilty of playing a harmless practical joke in response. But in this Forum, anyting other than pure worship of an Escort is a grave sin, hence the attacks on him as though we is a criminal.

 

Far and away, the most extreme, intense posts were ones talking about Mikel like he was a worthless scoundrel. Did you miss these posts from the Usual Suspects of the most rabid escort-worshippers and the escorts who lick it up, Rick:

 

<<BostonGuy: "You are not someone I would care to know or associate with."

 

JeffOH - "I'd say you're not someone I'd want to have as a client."

 

Flower: 'If it did happen, however, then he was not only a fool for playing back the VM to his dates face, but an arrogant, insensitive ass to boot."

 

Ortrud45: "Don't you think it's about time you lower now the zipper of your pants and prove us that you have some balls, lol ... besides being a game-player"

 

Paul Revere: "That's a tough one. It seems as though you had a great situation, but you got arrogant and played him the voice mail message. If you had just let the situation play out, you would have had a great day and no escort fee. But because you needed to proove to the escort how cool you were, then you SHOULD pay him his regular fee."

 

BigGuy: "I agree with Mr.Revere(nice to see you posting again)that playing the recording-when you knew damned well that would make the escort uneasy was totally uncool,and ruined whatever fun the escort had had with you in all likelyhood." (not to mention the posts here where he calls Mikel a "shmuck" multiple times and tells him he will "get what he deserves").

 

Franco: "The very definition of passive/aggressive behavior. "Vengence is mine, sayeth the Lord."

 

Will: "The real issue is deception, which is a particularly vicious form of lying when it involves the emotions of another person."

 

Ortrud45: "Whatever your motives were, you spoiled the evening for the escort and as a consequence for yourself. And it was not a nice gesture to thank the escort for the offered dinner that way!">>

 

Only the most blindly drooling escort-worshipper (and the escorts who desperately lap it up) would so viciously attack the character of the client in the situation.

 

But that's par for this Forum - comprised of so many people so desperate for some affection that they will eat doody if it pleases an escort and who believe that escorts must be treated like the Queen of England, accompanied by escorts who come here to pant and drink up this sex-driven, contrived adulation. But that's one of the things that make this Forum so entertaining. And Rick - it's one of the reasons we love you! :*

[Rick Munroe]

RE:

 

>Rick - you are one of the most

>shameless milkers and drinkers

 

That is not true. Yes, I do shamelessly milk but I never drink: the load always stays outside. :o

[Guest jeffOH]

RE: Questions and Answers

 

>Like I said, I asked for your opinions...and appreciate

>them...whether or not I agree with them. But the original

>post was not designated as a "question' but as "General".

 

"But the original post was not designated as a "question" but as "General"." Why does this matter? You also say, "I asked for your opinions", sorry, but in order to do that you have to ask a question.

Regardless of the designation of your post, it was constructed to promote discussion. That's what happened, right?

 

Once again, you have purposely not answered MY question, which I believe I've now asked 4 times. When you first met, WHY DID YOU NOT TELL THE ESCORT THAT YOU WERE TO BE HIS CLIENT THAT EVENING???

 

JEFF

jeff4men@hotmail.com

[buckguy]

RE:

 

This scenario belongs in the final season of "Seinfeld", where all the characters had become unfettered in their selfishness and lack of empathy. All they would have needed would have been an affluent friend who was gay ("not that there's anything wrong with that"). Even the "O Henry"-like ending fits the arc of a lot of Seinfeld stories. I tend toward the argument that escort & client are both schmucks, regardless of whether the escort shows up on Northwest. I am also suprised at Franco's reaction, the escort was unprofessional and Mikel passive aggressive and abusive of the relationship irrespective of the outcome. I don't think I'd want to share a trip to the wilderness with either one. FWIW, I, too, wouldn't mind going to Denali (friends & I planned but ultimately had to cancel a trip) and I have enjoyed Joshua Tree, however, I am no fan of Northwest.

 

As to the Rick & Doug thing---in my more paranoid moments, I tend to think that some central place or person (maybe Andrew Sullivan or a gay relative of Richard Mellon Sciafe) has assigned at least one angry dogmatic wingnut to every gay bulletin board and that their mission is to distort, distract and ramble on in the most hostile, narcisstic manner possible. Fortunately, I am not paranoid and I just think that self-hating, right wingers who are typically closet cases simply seek out the sites. At least on other sites, like Atkol, they tend to be "constructive citizens" outside of the political threads, where they persist despite being ignored or ridiculed for their outright distortions (and despite poor souls who persue rational argument). My own reading of the threads on this topic was that there were plenty of people whose vitriol was mostly for the escort, the client or both. Don't worry, Dougy, I'll probably ignore any pathetic rants from you.

 

Happy New Year.

[Trixie]

RE:

 

A well-played game, Mikel! And lot's of fun! I'm glad it turned out they way it did. You are a bit of a minx tho', aren't you?

But I respect that! And I always appreciate winning the Miss Congeniality prize.

Have fun in Alaska... I'm hankering to go there myself, but mine will be a winter trip. I have a vision of myself in a fab fun-fur-lined parka making angels in the snow whilst the Northern Lights shimmer overhead.

Miss Trix

[Guest ortrud45]

RE: to both threads

 

"Dear" Mikel,

 

After reading your explanations/declarations on "To pay or not to pay

... the Verdict is in!" I have some very mixed feelings about the two

threads you initiated.

Let me elaborate with possibly no emotions and just analyse the facts:

 

On the pretext of asking advice in thread # 1 ("To pay or not to pay?

... You be the Judge and Jury"), despite of your trying to make us now believe that you did not do so, you lured on purpose all voluntary

participants of this board on a wrong track!

Why? Because the basic facts have completely changed. I very much agree with Bilbo's statements (entry # 18) and I like to add, that the old, rudimentary story and the new complete story make a great difference, it's in fact almost a new story!

 

The following aspects of thread # 1 are now in fact of no (or only

little) importance anymore:

- your conduct (intoduction: yes or no; and if yes at what given moment).

- the escort's conduct (cancellation of appointment)

- to pay or not to pay the escort.

 

Would you have given us already the full report of the day's events in thread # 1, the outcome of replies and comments would have been totally different, less animated and much less controversial!

 

Comments:

 

1) I do not deny the entertainement-factor of your threads.

 

2) I agree with you on your statement "the escort and I are convinced

our relationship would have gone a different direction had we been escort/client from the onset."

 

3) I congratulate you for having found a buddy-friend who is as avid

a wilderness-camper as you are ... have a nice trip to Alaska coming June!

 

4) As in a detective novel or play you created a scenario in thread #1

which led the readers/viewers on a wrong track regarding victim/mur-

derer a.s.o.

Thus you played a game with us, I even go further and say you manipu-

lated us! And who on earth likes to be played with (if not sexually,

lol!), likes to be manipulated?

Mikel, put yourself just for a split second in our shoes and try to

honestly answer this question:

Do you like to be fooled big time as you fooled us?!?

 

5) You craved attention (note: I do so some times as well) and you got it! And that's the reason you deserved the lashings and all the

criticism you provoked by thread #1, you almost asked and begged for punishment! Even if those of course were based on wrong facts either, your fault!

 

7) Your explanations in thread #2 are very well manicured, polished

and sophisticated. Do I believe them, mmmh? It took you very long to

forward them.

But at least I'm positive you are a well educated and clever man.

 

 

 

 

Final word:

 

Is Mikel the manipulator and game-player likeable/congenial? I doubt it!

 

There is a German proverb reading:

"Wer einmal luegt, dem glaubt man nicht,

und wenn er selbst die Wahrheit spricht!"

(Translation: Who once tells a lie won't even be trusted when he speaks the truth!)

 

Okay, okay, this proverb is eventually a bit harsh as you did not pro-

vide barefaced lies; but I hope you take the time to reflect for a minute about your conduct towards all the participants of your threads.

 

And to end this on a friendlier note: HAPPY NEW YEAR and may it bring you happiness and a few insights!

 

Have a pleasant day, ortrud45

[Guest Mikel]

RE: This just proves, that the ......

 

There is truth to what you allege.

It was all made to be challenging.

And I do think someday we should have a group go wilderness camping in Alaska. And I know exactly what you mean about waiting for the clouds to clear!

If there are lots of inquiries about a group trip there...maybe we should persue one!

 

Have a great New Year!

 

Mikel

[Guest Mikel]

RE: Denali

 

You have to do Katmai and go to Brooks Falls. You will see scores of Grizzlies within 50 ft. of you!

[Guest Mikel]

RE:

 

Don't you think you could put aside those mere actions, which you think are imperfect, and enjoy the awesomeness of Denali with two imperfect people? I mean, doesn't something about the site of McKinley put all this human bickering into perspective??? Or are some people without fault and therefore the majesty of McKinley wanes in their presence??!! I'm gonna bet that despite your disagreement with our actions that infamous day in Palm Springs, you would have a splendid time with us in Alska...Alaska's wilderness just makes our faults pale in comparison to it's magnificance!

 

 

You have a great New Year!

 

Mikel

[Guest Mikel]

RE:

 

I'd love to see the Northern Lights there myself someday...but I prefer the long days instead of those long nighhts of their winters. But those Northern Lights have to be awesome!

 

Glad you enjoyed the thread!

 

Have the best year of your life in '04...and blame no one but yourself if it turns out less! Trixie can definitely make it the best year yet!!

 

Mikel

[Guest Mikel]

RE: to both threads

 

I'll accept some of the criticism of numbers 4 and 5. Some of it. I missed #6 entirely!

 

I think you would find me likeable! Honestly I do. Give me a break...there is lots you just might admire about me if you really knew me. The flaw you perceive, I don't imagine would outweigh some of the better qualities.

 

Anyways, I'll make you a promise...as a New Years resolution for "04, I'll try to dump one vice and add one virtue...and I'll presume you have offered your opinion as to which vice I should drop!

 

Have a happy and healthy New Year!

 

Thanks for the time invested in your response!

 

Mikel

[guyinsf]

RE:

 

Doug:

 

I get the sense that it's pointless to try to ask you to look at this issue rationally, but you are comparing apples and oranges. Just because many posters also had problems with the Mikel's behavior (and called him on it) doesn't mean that they had no problems with the escort's last minute cancellation of an appointment so he could continue a personal sex hook-up. Many people seemed to be put off by both the client and the escort in this situation. I know that I am.

 

Incredible to me in this new post is Mikel's assertion that the escort said something like, "I hope you aren't going to post a 'no show' review of me," and Mikel assuring him that he wouldn't. A no show review is exactly what this escort deserves but Mikel obviously isn't interested in providing an honest review of that part of this escort encounter.

[Guest Tristan]

RE:

 

>Thanks for he support!

>And I don't think Hooboy wants us to be afraid of him!

>Mikel

 

You're most welcome, Mikel. My post was not directed at Hooboy, nor at any individual, but rather at what I perceive as an unhealthy atmosphere that is bad for everyone. Let's hope for a better year.

 

- Tristan

[Guest Tristan]

RE:

 

Doug, thanks very much for your positive comment about my post. I have been wanting to write what I wrote for some time. After reading through Mikel's thread, I decided that I could no longer be silent, and that this was definitely an appropriate place to say what I had to say. As you stated, it fit in with the response to Mikel's post.

 

I would implore you and others NOT to return to rehashing the arguments for and against what Mikel did. At this point, it would be an exercise in futility that would just keep going in circles. Mikel's post is important, but I have seen other posters get the same treatment.

 

Look at the larger issues that I have attempted to define. That's what we all need to do. There are a lot of nice people and very intelligent people on this site. Happy New Year to everyone! I hope for improved understanding and a better environment within the scope of legitimate criticism.

 

- Tristan

[Guest ortrud45]

RE: to both threads

 

Mikel:

Check your Hooville-mail-box, sent you a private message.

 

Happy New Year again,

ortrud 45

[Guest Mikel]

RE: to both threads

 

It's exactly people like you who make this such a great site and keep me coming back!

[Guest DevonSFescort]

RE:

 

>just let them sputter in their pompous, prostitute-worshipping >bile.

 

And remember, NOTHING jazzes up leftover turkey like pompous, prostitute-worshipping bile!

 

I agree with your take that it was a practical joke, one that Mikel had hopefully, by that point, developed enough of a rapport with the escort to have a sense of how it would be received. And I don't think he owed the escort money.

 

That said, while admittedly unprofessional I don't really think the escort's cancellation is as "disgraceful" as you either believe or are arguing for effect. Speaking as an escort who's taken many, many more cancellations than he's imposed, my view on cancellations is that they happen and are a part of life. Sometimes something does come up, and in this case what came up was clearly more than the prospect of getting fucked, your revisionist account notwithstanding. What's more, except in cases where a deposit has been made or the like, the client generally fares better than the escort, if only economically. Cancellations may be bad service, but they're bad service that doesn't cost anything (notwithstanding appointments whose logistics involve a client spending money he otherwise wouldn't). Having experienced cancellations both as a client and as an escort, I can assure you that "saved $200, but wasted my time" carries a lot less sting with it than "lost $200 worth of income and wasted my time."

 

Many of you who are not escorts have been guilty of stealing time from your organizations in the pursuit of one of your romantic interests, whether it's frequently running late for work when you're dating someone new, messaging or emailing him while you're supposed to be working, or a less petty corruption like scheduling unnecessary business trips for fabricated purposes so you can see your "friend." There are long-standing, relationships out there that were facillitated by people temporarily sacrificing professionalism, in one way or another, to the pursuit of their personal interests. I hope none of you for whom the above has ever applied are among those calling for a no-show review. I don't think the cancellation was done cynically or is likely part of a broader pattern of behavior, and it certainly didn't reflect a desire to discriminate against a particular client. I get cancellations for what I would consider much less valid reasons all the time -- when you travel, they're just part of the banality of being on the road -- and at the end of the day cancellations are just one of the things you risk in life when you make plans, which life is notoriously bad at sticking to. I've had the vague impression that it's a fairly widely held view on this board that either party is, in fact, "entitled" to cancel for any reason up to the first few minutes of an appointment. Yes, there are additional duties a sense of courtesy and decency will hopefully impose upon us, but sometimes life presents a situation that makes you feel like you have to invoke that right and just cancel. Good people hate to do it and try not to do it often. This does seem to me like a more unique circumstance than "he found someone he'd rather get fucked by that night."

 

Basically I think the seriousness of the accusations against both parties has been exaggerated, but I have to admit that for awhile during the early part of the initial thread I got caught up in the popular mood of moral disgust -- "they're both assholes; they deserve each other." But now it just seems like a funny story, and even kind of a sweet one in its own offbeat way. I hope they continue to have fun with one another.

[Guest flibbits]

RE:

 

All people live within their own illusions. Mikel has shared his with the board. This isn't to say I believe his story isn't true. Its truth doesn't matter. What matters is the thrill one gets by posting it and manipulating a response by careful revelation of the facts.

 

If it had been me in the situation, I would have revealed my identity and foregone the paid date for the real one.