TOURING vs. TRAVELING ESCORTS

[+ quoththeraven]

Just because a prominent escort does it his way that there might be alternative options to consider, as well.

 

Anyone who's old enough to hire an escort should surely realize that. Many clients understandably don't wish to negotiate fees, but other terms are always up for grabs, with the enforcement mechanism on both sides being the ability to walk away.

 

Just because you used the terms "disingenuous" and "dishonest" in a specific context doesn't make them any less pejorative or judgment-laden, and you dug an even greater hole for yourself in your response to Steven Draker's somewhat cryptic first comment. Ditto for your characterization of the ethics of expense reimbursement. In that regard, the way you've driven this discussion is hardly value-neutral. Despite your avowal that everyone can do things the way they want to, you have been very clear in framing your objections as ethical ones. That in effect calls the escorts who use this model unethical and the clients who don't have a problem with it as saps who don't realize they're being taken advantage of. That is hardly "live and let live."

 

In your previous discussion of the escort who advertised despite agreeing not to, you did not reveal his name. Yet Dave was upfront about his practice and you made it public when you could just as easily have discussed it without reference to his identity, and you did so under circumstances that make it look like you're using what he wrote to reopen a discussion that had already concluded.

[Amoco]

QTR:

 

Well said. I agree with much of what you said, but not all.

 

In regard to the other escort, he was a guy who simply made a mistake. When it was pointed out to him he apologized, accepted full responsibility and rectified the situation. When we got together he went out of his way to raise the issue himself and we discussed it openly, honestly and intimately. He had no political agenda and wasn't pushing any agenda.

 

Dave's situation, in my opinion, is different. He sent out a general mailer entitled "Dave's Year In Review" under the moniker of 'The Legendary Dave". The piece was clearly a marketing effort and he went from chronicling his year, sharing an assortment of "favorites (books, music, food, etc), and at the end, stated that he frequently gets asked to define various terms, and went on to define "anchor client", "traveling escort" and "touring escort" in ways that were not consistent with my understanding of those terms, but which were presented as facts - as though the definitions came from a dictionary. There was no disclaimer that these issues can be fluid and that there are disagreements among both escorts and clients alike. And as I said before, there was nothing that suggested that his way of doing business was not the same for every escort.

 

Now I understand that some of you might disagree with this, but I believe that Dave is iconic in the escort community. His opinions and perspective have weight and he has certainly been clear about how much he enjoys teaching how to be an escort to other sex workers. To my mind, that comes with a responsibility to the community. I mentioned Dave by name for two reasons: first, because it came from a document that I would describe as similar to a direct mail marketing piece. Unless I'm missing something, there was nothing personal within it and in discussing the various definitions, and actually saying (probably with a wink) that he would give anybody who was willing to be his "anchor client" a t-shirt. Personally, I think that makes it fair game. Secondly, and more specifically, it is precisely because Dave enjoys this iconic "escort's escort" reputation that I thought it was important to point out alternative options. If any of this took place in the context of a private conversation or email, I would not have used it, and in fact, we've had numerous private interactions that I would never discuss publicly, whether it would assist my argument or not. You are free to agree or disagree but I believe that you can't enjoy the status without taking the responsibility that comes with it.

 

But maybe you can help me understand what is problematic about accurately presenting Dave's public position? Dave is clearly comfortable with his perspective and advertises it. I understand that some believe that my use of certain terms was seen as hyperbolc and unfair, but if I hadn't used those terms, would it be OK to raise this stuff? For those that are uncomfortable with this, can you poease explain the problem with disagreeing with an escort who has an opinion?

[+ SundayZip]

There is no reason you would know this, but actually this model is perfectly common in the Entertainment Industry...

 

Thanks Juan, I did not know this.

 

Maybe my next question is germane to this discussion, or maybe not, but I'll ask anyway... Does it make any difference whether the client makes the flight reservations and pays for the escort's airfare upfront (as I have) or simply reimburses the escort for this travel expense when they square up on the final fee for services?

[Epigonos]

Now, here for what it is worth, which isn’t much, is the opinion of a client, who has been hiring for over ten years. I am fortunate to live in a major metropolitan area and have a large market of local escorts from which to hire. Additionally many escorts travel to the L.A. area on their own and thus I need not bring them out here at my expense. When I first started hiring I had a great deal of fun traveling to cities I had not previously visited in order to get together with an escort who interested me. Now with the above caveats out of the way here goes.

 

First there is NO “industry standard” regarding this matter. The very idea of an industry would be funny if it weren’t so absurd. Each client and each client sets their own standard regarding this. As Juan clearly stated this matter should NOT be a problem as long as good communication between client and escort is practiced. Both the escort and the client must let the other know exactly what his expectations are.

 

During the last ten plus years I have flown one or two escorts out here to meet me. I, of course, paid for all expenses including airfare, hotel, meals, and any excursions we took. I did expect the escort to meet me immediately upon his arrival in the L.A. area. If I paid I wanted him to meet me FIRST, however, after our time together he was free to do whatever he wished. I always booked the escorts flights so I knew exactly when he arrived and he was free to let me know when he wanted to depart. I clearly communicated these expectations to the escort and never encountered a problem.

 

As in all matters regarding the dealings between client and escort the KEY is and always will be communication, Communication, and more COMMUNICATION. If this is the case misunderstandings will be kept to a bare minimum.

[+ WilliamM]

 

However, I do not believe that Dave's statement, as quoted in Amoco's post, was dishonest at all. Framing the "standard practice" in a way that suits your business is part of marketing. That's what Dave, and a gazillion other companies and small businesses have done, and there's nothing wrong with it IMO. I think that Dave's teaching and his "legendary" reputation affects newbies' opinions less than Amoco thinks they do. FWIW, Dave and I have neither spoken nor PM'd.

 

There have been "expert" escorts as far back as I can remember. There was a decent book published in 1999 called, "hustlers escorts and porn stars: the insider's guide to male prostitution in america" by Matt Adams. It was the second edition; I also checked out the first edition. Of course, this site and the Internet changed escorting forever.

 

In the early days here, a well-known escort was also "teaching" people. His name escapes me for the moment. Anyone remember? He escorted based in New York or New Jersey. I believe he was friends with Hooboy. [Added a few minutes later: his name .... Aaron Lawrence.]

 

I agree that Dave's status may not be what Amoco believes. One or two standards are impossible in such complicated relationships between escorts and clients.

[MiamiLooker]

Amoco, you posted in another thread (http://www.companyofmen.org/showthread.php?102419-UPDATE-on-question-related-to-who-pays-the-airfare-when-an-escort-travels&p=942403#post942403) that the escort “had misunderstood a critical piece of the circumstance” of your proposal and that you not only resolved the disagreement, but you went forward with the appointment. If you accepted his explanation of his misunderstanding, then you should accept that you had no initial agreement of the terms of the appointment since there was no meeting of the minds. I don’t believe you posted what the resolution to the disagreement was. How was it resolved?

[Juan Vancouver]

Maybe my next question is germane to this discussion, or maybe not, but I'll ask anyway... Does it make any difference whether the client makes the flight reservations and pays for the escort's airfare upfront (as I have) or simply reimburses the escort for this travel expense when they square up on the final fee for services?

 

The only right answer is: "To whom?"

 

Again, the answer to this question is entirely dependant of who is making the agreement. Some clients and escorts will think it makes a differences, some won't.

 

If you are asking me personally, then I have to say that in the last few years and with very few exceptions I have booked my own travel to and from a client. My schedule changes way too often and I live in a city kind od at the end of all things (Vancouver) so sometimes instead of coming back home till my next trip it makes much more sense to go to a close by city and wait for my next appointment. Regardless, it makes no difference to me whether you pre-paid for my travel or if you are reimbursing me. I am only charging for the time I have agreed to spend with you, not my time before and after. If I show up on time, fresh, happy, and provide the fun experience I promised, then I did my job. I am in control of my own schedule.

 

If your question was related to the entertainment industry, then no, it doesn't make any difference. Even though maybe 95% of the cases it is the production company who books and pays for everything, including per diem.

 

I am not sure whether this answers your question..?

[Steven_Draker]

Recently, however, clients are beginning to step up in greater numbers and taking risks by asking provocative questions.

 

You meant our members suffering from MPD?

 

Yes, I can read through the propaganda and the agenda some people have here. Thank you.

[TUOT89]

Anyone who's old enough to hire an escort should surely realize that. Many clients understandably don't wish to negotiate fees, but other terms are always up for grabs, with the enforcement mechanism on both sides being the ability to walk away.

 

I am going to pretend I am an escort. A client (new or regular) calls me. They want me to travel to their city/town for an overnight or a weekend. If it were me, transportation would be non-negotiable and I would not take too kindly to the client inquiring as to my activities before or after I completed my meeting with him.

 

Stipulating what I can and cannot do after my meeting with the client, no matter the rationale, would make me feel like the client was trying to control me. Placing conditions on the transportation costs would make me think the client is nickel and diming me. Neither thought/feeling is conducive to a good meeting.

 

Hence, even if the client is doing what he thinks is right or "professional," he could very well end up sabotaging the date.

[+ FreshFluff]

I am going to pretend I am an escort. A client (new or regular) calls me. They want me to travel to their city/town for an overnight or a weekend. If it were me, transportation would be non-negotiable and I would not take too kindly to the client inquiring as to my activities before or after I completed my meeting with him.

 

Stipulating what I can and cannot do after my meeting with the client, no matter the rationale, would make me feel like the client was trying to control me. Placing conditions on the transportation costs would make me think the client is nickel and diming me. Neither thought/feeling is conducive to a good meeting.

 

Hence, even if the client is doing what he thinks is right or "professional," he could very well end up sabotaging the date.

 

 

Well, it depends on how much negotiating power you, the escort, have, which in turn depends on how much interested the client is in seeing you. (It's true for the corporate world too: A top partner at McKinsey will usually* be more successful in demanding, say, top hotel accommodations than a consultant at a lesser known firm.) You, the escort, have a right to refuse the appointment because the client's terms are unacceptable to you. But you might lose an otherwise good client who has a "thing" about travel costs. (Or you might lose a nudnik who you wouldn't want anyway.)

 

You might also lose the opportunity for other business in the area unless you were willing to fly out on your own.

 

*I say usually because some corporate clients have ironclad rules about what they will provide for vendors, regardless of how interested they are in working with them.

[+ SundayZip]

The truth be told, I've never had to decide whether or not to pay an escort's full airfare when he's also planning to see other clients. The question simply has not come up. I've purchased airfare after discussing the best arrival and departure times and the escort has never asked me to delay his return flight so that he could have a couple extra days in town. The escorts that I've hired for travel were well aware that our weekends together were a special event for me and they did a good job of making me believe that the weekend was, in some small way, special to them as well. Maybe they intuitively knew that I'd feel like just another guy in line at the deli counter if they planned to see other clients during the same trip.

[Juan Vancouver]

You, the escort, have a right to refuse the appointment because the client's terms are unacceptable to you. But you might lose an otherwise good client who has a "thing" about travel costs. (Or you might lose a nudnik who you wouldn't want anyway.)

 

By my personal definition a person who is not willing to pay for my services the way my services are offered, not only is not a "good client", he is simply NOT a client.

 

I only travel to Toronto on my own. This is my personal financial risk that I gladly take because I have to be in Toronto anyway for other business quite often.

 

If someone wants me to visit them in Sioux Falls, or Grand Rapids or even New York city, then there will be a minimum call, depending on the travelling time, plus all expenses paid in full. If someone says "I am fine with your rate but I will only give you half of your expenses, or I will get other clients together to pay for your expenses", then I decline. No exceptions.

 

As giving and loving a person as I might be, I am not in this business to incur in a financial risk so that John Doe in Wichita has the possibility to meet me. If I want to take a risk, I will decide it and will gladly pay for the consequences. If someone wants me to visit, then all expenses are on them. No exceptions.

 

Is it possible that I have missed incredibly wonderful people by sticking to my way of doing business? I am so sure I have, and I will go to my death with a deep sense of bewilderment wondering who I could have met.

 

Have I missed any good clients by refusing to pay for expenses on a trip that they want me to take? No. Because they don't have the minimum requirements to be a client of mine. But I am perfectly sure they will be wonderful clients for other escorts who have different standards and ways of doing business.

 

Don't like it? Don't pay for it.

 

Like it? Pay for it.

 

There's no right or wrong, but a client trying to convince an escort to change his way of doing business, is as strange as an escort trying to force a client to hire him with all his conditions. It doesn't work. Give it up. We'd be better off focusing all this incredible amount of time an effort into finding escorts and clients who are a good match to us instead of proselytizing for our own way.

 

And Freshfluff... I am still laughing by "nudnik". I haven't heard that word in forever!

 

And with this, I leave this conversation. Nothing new to add.

 

best wishes to all.

[tom1980]

If it was me, I don't think I'd mind if the escort stayed in town after my time with him was over. When I agree to pay travel expenses, that's a sunk cost and I accept that I'm willing to pay the cost to get what I want.

 

On the other hand, if I was looking for a bargain and didn't want to pay travel expenses and didn't care about controlling the guy's schedule, I would probably contact the escort and offer to serve as an anchor client in the event he ever decides to visit my area. Then, the escort knows I'm not paying his travel costs, but he can decide whether me hiring him for an overnight or weekend is sufficient incentive for him to spend some time in my vicinity whilst "touring." The escort would be free to ask me to pay a deposit before making his travel plans, and I would be free to counter offer. However, if I want him to pay his own travel expenses, then I think its fair to let him plan the trip for whenever is most convenient for him (of course, it would also have to be convenient for me if he wants my appointment). In this scenario, since the only time I'm paying for is when he is with me, all I'd care about is whether he is fully prepared and engaged the whole time he is with me.