Malaysian Airliner down...

[bigvalboy]

Another Malaysian triple 7 just went down on the Ukraine and Russsian border. 295 souls on board. Prayers prayers prayers, to all involved.

God bless them...

[tyro]

Oh no......

T

[+ WilliamM]

The major TV news networks and cable are covering the crash non-stop. The Malaysian plane came down in between Donetsk and Luhanak, an area contolled by the separatists. The Ukrainian government has been saying for the last few days that at least one of its planes was shot down by a missile also near the Russian border. The two separatists leaders, Strelkov and Borodai, have stated many times that they are Russian "volunteers" from Moscow. But, there are also separatists, who are pro-Russian and resent Russian leaderships, rather than Eastern Ukraine leadership. If the separatists shot down the Malaysian plane, it would be the culmination of a tricky situation for Putin; he maintained somewhat aloof from the chaos in Eastern Ukraine lately. But, rogue activity was always a possibility with available Russian weapons. Right now there's no proof the plane was shot down!

[bigvalboy]

The major TV news networks and cable are covering the crash non-stop. The Malaysian plane came down in between Donetsk and Luhanak, an area contolled by the separatists. The Ukrainian government has been saying for the last few days that at least one of its planes was shot down by a missile also near the Russian border. The two separatists leaders, Strelkov and Borodai, have stated many times that they are Russian "volunteers" from Moscow. But, there are also separatists, who are pro-Russian and resent Russian leaderships, rather than Eastern Ukraine leadership. If the separatists shot down the Malaysian plane, it would be the culmination of a tricky situation for Putin; he maintained somewhat aloof from the chaos in Eastern Ukraine lately. But, rogue activity was always a possibility with available Russian weapons. Right now there's no proof the plane was shot down!

 

Sadly, it appears that the Malaysian airliner was shot down. Indeed it might be a game changer in the chess game with Putin, though I don't see much changing. BUT I fear that the politics will overshadow the human tragedy of it all. 295 lives lost, all for nothing....

[+ deej]

Sadly, it appears that the Malaysian airliner was shot down. Indeed it might be a game changer in the chess game with Putin, though I don't see much changing. BUT I fear that the politics will overshadow the human tragedy of it all. 295 lives lost, all for nothing....

 

Indeed, US satellites have the thermal images of the missile launching and the explosion on contact. It hasn't been released, but with that kind of pinpointing they know (or soon will) EXACTLY where that missile launched. I PRAY it was launched from inside Ukraine, but if it was right at the border it could be a case of two steps this way or that way. If it came from within Russia, as John McCain said today "there will be hell to pay". (Thank god it is't his finger on the launch button!)

 

A lot of the talking heads are hoping this goads western Europe into taking a more active role in the Putin issue. Time will tell.

[+ WilliamM]

Indeed' date=' US satellites have the thermal images of the missile launching and the explosion on contact. It hasn't been released, but with that kind of pinpointing they know (or soon will) EXACTLY where that missile launched. I [b']PRAY[/b] it was launched from inside Ukraine, but if it was right at the border it could be a case of two steps this way or that way. If it came from within Russia, as John McCain said today "there will be hell to pay". (Thank god it is't his finger on the launch button!)

 

A lot of the talking heads are hoping this goads western Europe into taking a more active role in the Putin issue. Time will tell.

 

I have a good friend who is a freelance reporter near Donetsk. He posted several hours ago on Facebook about arriving at the crash site tomorrow (Friday) morning. Good luck. If there was any logic here, I would speculate that the splinter separatist groups are responsible, not Strelkov and Birodai. They are thugs of the first order, but capable of conducting long press conferences (see YouTube) and very occasionally sounding as if they know what they are doing -- whatever the Kremlin tells them.

[johnjohn]

Wondering what can USA do ? Russia owns space , Congress and Presidents gutted Nasa and the space program , and waste Billons of dollars on other bullshit programs USA is at Russias mercy.. and the sad thing is , don't think will ever change

[instudiocity]

(Thank god it is't his finger on the launch button!)

It might be time for our enemies to believe one of us would finger the button... remember Teddy Roosevelt? Speak softly and carry a big stick. Where's our big stick?

[Guest Starbuck]

Tragedy Within Tragedy...

 

This from CNN ... The international health community is reeling from the loss of a number of their colleagues, including a revered AIDS researcher, who are believed to be amongst the passengers on the tragic flight.

 

The victims were on their way to the International AIDS Conference that is scheduled to begin this weekend in Melbourne, Australia. They were flying from the Netherlands to Australia, via Kuala Lumpur.

 

One of the victims is prominent Dutch scientist Joep Lange, a pioneer in HIV research and a former president of the International AIDS Society, which organizes the conference. His partner Jacqueline van Tongeren was also on the flight with him, says the Health[e] Foundation, co-founded by Lange."He was a real hardcore scientist, but on the other hand, he really had the heart of an activist. He was quite bold and a little bit of a troublemaker," said Albert Wu, professor at Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health. Wu had helped Lange plan the 1991 AIDS conference.

 

"(Lange) was one of the first people to advocate spreading HIV medications to Africa," says Wu. At the time, the medication wasn't being delivered because of refrigeration problems. "He said, 'If Coca-Cola can deliver cold beverages to Africa, why can't we deliver HIV medication?' And he helped make it happen," recalls Wu.

[Lookin]

If there was any logic here, I would speculate that the splinter separatist groups are responsible, not Strelkov and Birodai.

 

According to this blog, Strelkov tweeted an hour and a half earlier that they had shot down what he thought was an An-26 military transport aircraft. "We warned them not to fly in our skies.", said the tweet.

 

After it was reported that a Malaysian aircraft was down, the tweet was deleted. Although alleged screen caps are still available, one poster thought it was a 'transparent fake'.

 

 

I guess time will tell.

 

From what I understand, commercial planes weren't supposed to be flying in that airspace below 32,000 feet. The Malaysian plane was flying at 33,000 feet. The assumption was that no rebel group had a missile that could fire that high. Now, lesson learned, that airspace is totally closed to commercial traffic.

 

I'm wondering if this is the beginning of an era when a lot more commercial aircraft might become missile bait. There's little doubt that some pretty heavy duty weapons are getting into broader distribution and outside the control of any so-called "responsible" government. http://www.boytoy.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif

[Steven_Draker]

Ukraine Releases A Document "Proving" Rebels Shot Down Malaysian Flight MH-17

 

[video=youtube;M8Zc1jlqvWw]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=M8Zc1jlqvWw

 

(the authenticity of the conversation hasn't been verified (yet))

[+ WilliamM]

According to this blog, Strelkov tweeted an hour and a half earlier that they had shot down what he thought was an An-26 military transport aircraft. "We warned them not to fly in our skies.", said the tweet.

 

After it was reported that a Malaysian aircraft was down, the tweet was deleted. Although alleged screen caps are still available, one poster thought it was a 'transparent fake'.

 

 

I guess time will tell.

 

From what I understand, commercial planes weren't supposed to be flying in that airspace below 32,000 feet. The Malaysian plane was flying at 33,000 feet. The assumption was that no rebel group had a missile that could fire that high. Now, lesson learned, that airspace is totally closed to commercial traffic.

 

I'm wondering if this is the beginning of an era when a lot more commercial aircraft might become missile bait. There's little doubt that some pretty heavy duty weapons are getting into broader distribution and outside the control of any so-called "responsible" government. http://www.boytoy.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif

 

My understanding from watching CNN almost non-stop is that the Malaysian plane was flying a slightly different route than most commercial airplanes because of weather problems to the south. And we know that the separatists had shot down two Ukrainian planes earlier this week. If that message was from Strelkov, it is the first time anyone has broken the news. I believe Strelkov is de facto minister of defense in the DPR (Donetsk People's Republic). Borodai is "prime minister." We probably will not know much until the DPR's next press conference, and see who shows up to discuss the situation and answer questions.

 

A friend was recently discussing Strelkov's extension and impressive military experience with Russia, including serving in Bosnia on the Serbian side in the 1990s. I agreed, but there comes a time for many people when twenty years of combat experience is too much; that may be true for Strelkov.

[marylander1940]

Ukraine Releases A Document "Proving" Rebels Shot Down Malaysian Flight MH-17

 

[video=youtube;M8Zc1jlqvWw]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=M8Zc1jlqvWw

 

(the authenticity of the conversation hasn't been verified (yet))[/color]

 

Maybe now Europeans will be more cooperative with NATO and helpful with Ukraine.

 

I hope all passengers died fast and didn't suffer, I hope after the missile hit they were unaware of their demise.

 

Russia must pay for this just like we gave 62 millions to the Iranian government after the Vincennes incident in the Persian Gulf and Gaddaffi a billion after "Lockerbie".

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Vincennes_%28CG-49%29

[bigvalboy]

There are an infinite number of tragedies here. There will be plenty of time for finger pointing, and plenty of blame to go around. MH17 might have been in unrestricted air space, but why would you fly over, what the world is calling, a war zone? I don't know, plenty of time to sort out those answers, and in reality, those responsible, may never be brought to justice.

 

For now, I think it would behoove us to think about those lives lost. As Starbuck indicates in his post, "Tragedy within Tragedy"....every single person on that plane had a story to tell, and a life worth living. The same day, Israel invaded the Gaza Strip. The news coming to us in 30 sec blips. I think sometimes we become numb to what is going on in the world, and politics all too often overshadows the human side of the equation.

 

We might not be able to control what others think, say or do, but if the world would just pause for moment and digest what a horrific act this was, then maybe, just maybe, the world will get mad enough to slow the insanity of it all.

[Steven_Draker]

 

The Moscow Times @MoscowTimes

 

The day after #MH17 crashed in eastern Ukraine, planes are steering clear of the region, as seen on @flightradar24:

[+ WilliamM]

There are an infinite number of tragedies here. There will be plenty of time for finger pointing, and plenty of blame to go around. MH17 might have been in unrestricted air space, but why would you fly over, what the world is calling, a war zone? I don't know, plenty of time to sort out those answers, and in reality, those responsible, may never be brought to justice.

 

For now, I think it would behoove us to think about those lives lost. As Starbuck indicates in his post, "Tragedy within Tragedy"....every single person on that plane had a story to tell, and a life worth living. The same day, Israel invaded the Gaza Strip. The news coming to us in 30 sec blips. I think sometimes we become numb to what is going on in the world, and politics all too often overshadows the human side of the equation.

 

We might not be able to control what others think, say or do, but if the world would just pause for moment and digest what a horrific act this was, then maybe, just maybe, the world will get mad enough to slow the insanity of it all.

 

 

Not everyone still considered Eastern Ukraine a major war zone after Putin removed a large number of Russian troops from the Ukraine/Russia border. In reality, things have been falling apart in Eastern Ukraine, despite some major recent government victories near Donetsk. Maryinka and Mariupol are still under separatist control, yet Kiev has been shelling both cities regularly this week.

 

Yesterday, CNN was showing radar reports of commercial planes still flying over Eastern Ukraine after the Malaysian plane was shot down

[armadillo]

And adding to the tragedy:

 

http://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2014/07/17/around-100-aids-researchers-heading-to-melbourne-conference-aboard-malaysia-airlines-flight-ukraine-russia-aircraft-crash-victims-australia/

 

SAN FRANCISCO (KPIX 5) — About 100 of the passengers on the Malaysia Airlines flight that was shot down over the Ukraine on Thursday were reportedly AIDS scientists and researchers heading to Australia for a conference.

World Health Organization spokesperson Glenn Thomas was also among the victims.

[bigvalboy]

There is a price for a human life....

 

"Russia's economic importance to central Europe, is tempering it's leaders' responses to the jet crash"

 

You could see this coming from day one....

 

http://news.yahoo.com/ukraine-crisis-shows-divisions-old-soviet-bloc-104610696.html

[marylander1940]

...I would speculate that the splinter separatist groups are responsible, not Strelkov and Birodai. They are thugs of the first order, but capable of conducting long press conferences (see YouTube) and very occasionally sounding as if they know what they are doing -- whatever the Kremlin tells them.

 

The military industrial complex is also full of thugs, Ike warned us about it.

 

It might be time for our enemies to believe one of us would finger the button... remember Teddy Roosevelt? Speak softly and carry a big stick. Where's our big stick?

 

I wonder if Cheney ever said anything like it... I guess he used the stick too much and now it's broken.

 

We still have the best Air Force, decades ahead of other countries and capable to sending a country like Yugoslavia (Serbia now) to the XIX century in a few weeks, but after a decade of war, stop-loss, rape, financial crisis and nation building's by a President who got elected as a isolationist, I think our fighting men and women need to take a rest.

 

I was born in 1940 and I remember everybody worked for the victory in WW II, even after the war was over. Yesterday at the Club Lounge this couple of right wing nuts kept talking about how week Obama was, if I see them tomorrow for lunch I'll tell them to go on a diet as part of the war effort, let's remember the healthcare cost of fat people and the fact that 40% of men and women who want to serve can't do it because they're overweight.

 

I'm off subject again...

[+ Gar1eth]

From my reading of the New York Times, officials new the rebels had weapons that could reach above 32,000 feet. So I'm not sure why the directive for flying at 33,000 feet was isssued. An expert I heard talking on NPR noted that there are many unsettled regions in the worl where commercial aircraft routines go. The Ukraine up until now was one of them. There is also Iraq currently.

 

Gman

[+ WilliamM]

From my reading of the New York Times, officials new the rebels had weapons that could reach above 32,000 feet. So I'm not sure why the directive for flying at 33,000 feet was isssued. An expert I heard talking on NPR noted that there are many unsettled regions in the worl where commercial aircraft routines go. The Ukraine up until now was one of them. There is also Iraq currently.

 

Gman

 

When the directive was issued, it was NOT known that the separatists had weapons that could reach above 32,000 feet. The separatist had shot down Ukrainian planes at a lower height earlier in the week. Experts have been quoted in newspapers and said on TV in the last few days that the Malaysians did nothing wrong in flying at 33,000 feet.

[actor61]

Bodies have been lying in the fields around the crash site nearly 4 days days now, apparently decomposing. They've started putting them in bags and loading them onto trucks and refrigerated rail cars "like cord wood" as one American reporter on the scene put it. The agony the families must be going through is unimaginable. I can't think what my reaction would be if I knew that a loved one was lying dead and decomposing in the dirt while drunken, masked thugs strutted around the area with guns denying access to the site for dignified removal of the corpses. It's barbaric and disgusting, and I have no idea what can possibly be done about it.

[+ WilliamM]

I believe the problem now is not bodies left in a field, but who (the separatists) has control of the bodies in refrigerated rail cars and morgues. Yes, it is extremely disturbing to everyone, especially the families. It is unfair to characterize all the separatists at the crash site as thugs strutting around with guns. That's just not the case. Some of the separatists have been very helpful and caring, but not the leadership.

 

Based on an e-mail from an British-American friend at the crash site sent at 12:34 AM this morning Ukrainian time.

[+ Gar1eth]

When the directive was issued, it was NOT known that the separatists had weapons that could reach above 32,000 feet. The separatist had shot down Ukrainian planes at a lower height earlier in the week. Experts have been quoted in newspapers and said on TV in the last few days that the Malaysians did nothing wrong in flying at 33,000 feet.

 

 

I may be wrong. But I think the article I read said that whether the airline knew or not, governments like ours had been able to tell what kind of missiles had struck previous planes and knew they could reach that height. As for blaming Malaysian Airlines, I'm not- or at least not anymore than I am blaming any of the commercial airlines for plotting to fly over a war zone. I admit I wouldn't have thought about it either probably. But I'm not in the airline field. In 'perfect' hindsight, it seems to me the airlines ought to avoid all unstable areas no matter the extra flight miles involved.

 

Gman

[+ WilliamM]

I may be wrong. But I think the article I read said that whether the airline knew or not' date=' governments like ours had been able to tell what kind of missiles had struck previous planes and knew they could reach that height. [/quote']

 

Some airlines avoided flying over Eastern Ukraine when fighting resumed on July 1. As recently as a week ago, I believe the separatists (there are several groups) had not shot at any planes flying over that area. I have been following the developing situation in Eastern Ukraine closely for about the last 10 days-two weeks, but I must not have read the article you mentioned. If the separatists secured more high-power equipment from Russia, it would have been difficult to know that immediately -- a little less difficult if they had captured the equipment from the Ukrainian government.