Gender Choice Of Your Sexual Partner

[+ Gar1eth]

In the course of an Internet search, I came across this little nugget of a quote from an actor named Thomas Colby. I know others have expressed the same idea. But just reading it got to me because it's so true. His IMDB page is http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1489072/?ref_=tt_cl_t6

 

The quote:

 

Clearly people who claim sexuality is a choice are themselves bi-sexual as I know no gay or straight person who would make that statement.

 

Gman

[+ quoththeraven]

In the course of an Internet search, I came across this little nugget of a quote from an actor named Thomas Colby. I know others have expressed the same idea. But just reading it got to me because it's so true. His IMDB page is http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1489072/?ref_=tt_cl_t6

 

The quote:

 

Clearly people who claim sexuality is a choice are themselves bi-sexual as I know no gay or straight person who would make that statement.

 

Gman

 

What does that even mean? I'm not sure bi/poly/pansexuals feel as though their sexuality is a choice either. I don't. Nor, most likely, is where we are on the continuum; most bi, etc. people have preferences. Most of us don't like all the theoretical possibilities (in terms of gender expression) equally but who we desire depends on the people involved. Sometimes the unexpected happens.

 

I assume he said this to counter the belief among some that people choose to be gay, which is laughable given all the societal disapproval that thankfully is diminishing, but replacing one type of sloppy thinking with another isn't a step forward.

[+ FreshFluff]

I'm not even sure it's a choice for bi-sexual people. They can't help being attracted to both genders anymore than the rest of us can help being attracted to one.

[+ quoththeraven]

I'm not even sure it's a choice for bi-sexual people. They can't help being attracted to both genders anymore than the rest of us can help being attracted to one.

 

Jinx! (seeing as we posted at the same time)

[maninsoma]

I think the point is that claims that sexuality is a choice are always made by people who've "chosen" heterosexuality. The person making the statement is just having a little bit of fun by claiming that those people must be attracted to both men and women if they believed they chose heterosexuality.

[+ quoththeraven]

I think the point is that claims that sexuality is a choice are always made by people who've "chosen" heterosexuality. The person making the statement is just having a little bit of fun by claiming that those people must be attracted to both men and women if they believed they chose heterosexuality.

 

In my experience, it's not useful to combat ignorance with more ignorance, even if meant in fun.

 

I could deconstruct the underlying assumptions here, which I don't think are what you think they are, but I will refrain.

[+ Gar1eth]

I disagree with the disagreements- obviously or I wouldn't have posted it. Think of the statement as something similar to a dichotomous key although possibly in this case a 'trichotomous' key. Also let's for the moment assume absolutes. Yes I know in actuality there may not be absolute absolutes, but in the same way science often uses simplified models to understand, predict (anyone familiar with the Ideal Gas Equation-if not- I should explain that there is in actuality no such thing as a 100% Ideal Gas. But the equation is useful in predicting some properties of gases. And some gases act more 'ideal' than others ), or get truths across. There are basically two genders - the only possibilities then regarding attraction are to be attracted to neither, either (= one or the other), or both. Since we are talking about attraction, we should get rid of the 'neither choice' as that's the opposite or the negative of attraction.

 

That leaves us with being attracted to either or both. In that case the hallmark/prerequisite/ sine qua non of being heterosexual is an attraction to the opposite gender, being gay to the same gender , and being bisexual- not a choice about being bisexual but there may be a choice about deciding which gender they prefer on the whole to be with more often ( and when I say choice, I don't necessarily mean 'conscious' choice).

 

So that is the way I understood the statement.

 

QED

 

Gman

[Diverdan]

I love your analysis, Gar1eth... and I agree with the first statement that was posted.... I know of some men who are probably 99% gay, who have under certain circumstances had sex with a woman, found it gratifying and enjoyed it. I suspect the same may be true for women too, but have no first hand experience.

[+ deej]

http://static.happyplace.com/assets/images/2013/11/528f862ea60a1.jpg

[+ Gar1eth]

http://static.happyplace.com/assets/images/2013/11/528f862ea60a1.jpg

 

I always wondered if this was a fake letter. What mother forgets her child's birthday for three years in a row- if only so she could tell him- 'look what agony I went through for you to treat me this way'?

 

Gman

[Frankly Rich]

I didn't choose to be gay, but I sure am glad I am. It's made for a most interesting life. So I guess I can say that once I realized I was gay, I did choose to embrace it.

[+ quoththeraven]

I disagree with the disagreements- obviously or I wouldn't have posted it. Think of the statement as something similar to a dichotomous key although possibly in this case a 'trichotomous' key. Also let's for the moment assume absolutes. Yes I know in actuality there may not be absolute absolutes, but in the same way science often uses simplified models to understand, predict (anyone familiar with the Ideal Gas Equation-if not- I should explain that there is in actuality no such thing as a 100% Ideal Gas. But the equation is useful in predicting some properties of gases. And some gases act more 'ideal' than others ), or get truths across. There are basically two genders - the only possibilities then regarding attraction are to be attracted to neither, either (= one or the other), or both. Since we are talking about attraction, we should get rid of the 'neither choice' as that's the opposite or the negative of attraction.

 

That leaves us with being attracted to either or both. In that case the hallmark/prerequisite/ sine qua non of being heterosexual is an attraction to the opposite gender, being gay to the same gender , and being bisexual- not a choice about being bisexual but there may be a choice about deciding which gender they prefer on the whole to be with more often ( and when I say choice, I don't necessarily mean 'conscious' choice).

 

So that is the way I understood the statement.

 

QED

 

Gman

 

Approximations and rules of thumb have their place. But when it comes to dealing with human beings, approximations and rules of thumb always leave out some people. I'm sure you don't consciously intend to exclude them, but that's the effect of your statement.

 

Gender is not as binary as you've presented it here. Neither is sexual attraction. Asexual people exist. Intersex people exist. Gender non-conforming people of all varieties exist.

 

And no, I don't think bisexuals, etc. (the etc. is important because it includes attraction to all those non-binary folks you've left out) who have a gender preference (some don't) have a choice over it. If I could, I would choose to be more attracted to women than I am because we're more on the same wavelength from having been socialized similarly.

 

An unconscious choice is a contradiction in terms. If one has no conscious control over it, it's not a choice.

[instudiocity]

http://static.happyplace.com/assets/images/2013/11/528f862ea60a1.jpg

 

I always wondered if this was a fake letter. What mother forgets her child's birthday for three years in a row- if only so she could tell him- 'look what agony I went through for you to treat me this way'?

 

Gman

I was just about to post, "I wonder if Feeling Betrayed is the mother or the father of this 17 year old?" when Gar1eth answered my hypothetical - Mom!

 

No, seriously, there are plenty of red flags in the posting - what committed church-participant would 'forget' their child's 15th, 16th and 17th birthday? Geez! If this parent is that committed to participating in the family life of a church, this parent is providing for a family life including birthday parties for their child.

 

If it's a real letter, I'm still curious if Feeling Betrayed is Dad or Mom to this 17 year old Gay Guy?

[+ Gar1eth]

Approximations and rules of thumb have their place. But when it comes to dealing with human beings, approximations and rules of thumb always leave out some people. I'm sure you don't consciously intend to exclude them, but that's the effect of your statement.

 

Gender is not as binary as you've presented it here. Neither is sexual attraction. Asexual people exist. Intersex people exist. Gender non-conforming people of all varieties exist.

 

And no, I don't think bisexuals, etc. (the etc. is important because it includes attraction to all those non-binary folks you've left out) who have a gender preference (some don't) have a choice over it. If I could, I would choose to be more attracted to women than I am because we're more on the same wavelength from having been socialized similarly.

 

An unconscious choice is a contradiction in terms. If one has no conscious control over it, it's not a choice.

 

Unfortunately the world isn't perfect. Even if you were to look at the best psychological or sociological theory- the one with the most empiric evidence, you aren't going to cover every single person in every situation that the theorem covers. And people make choices based on unconcious reasonings/biologic imperatives all the time ( pheromones anyone).

 

I contend that we are an argumentative bunch ( myself included) who too often have the tendency to overread and nitpick things to death. I further contend that that is what has happened in this case. And that your average straight person would have no problems with the quote and would understand it immediately. For that matter, I understood it immediately. It is to be understood that it is neither Einstein's Theory Of Relativity nor the Sermon on The Mount and doesnt deserve the same level of introspection as those do.

 

It simply means that for the majority of us- way over the majority of the time- a straight person will be with a person of the opposite gender, a gay person will be with someone of the same gender, and a bisexual person has the opportunity to choose either. And is a refutation of the commonly heard refrain from a certain section of the (mostly) straight fundamentalist community that seems to believe- we are all really straight underneath but for reasons of perversity we actively choose to be with someone of the same gender.

 

Gman

[+ quoththeraven]

Unfortunately the world isn't perfect. Even if you were to look at the best psychological or sociological theory- the one with the most empiric evidence, you aren't going to cover every single person in every situation that the theorem covers. And people make choices based on unconcious reasonings/biologic imperatives all the time ( pheromones anyone).

 

I contend that we are an argumentative bunch ( myself included) who too often have the tendency to overread and nitpick things to death. I further contend that that is what has happened in this case. And that your average straight person would have no problems with the quote and would understand it immediately. For that matter, I understood it immediately. It is to be understood that it is neither Einstein's Theory Of Relativity nor the Sermon on The Mount and doesnt deserve the same level of introspection as those do.

 

It simply means that for the majority of us- way over the majority of the time- a straight person will be with a person of the opposite gender, a gay person will be with someone of the same gender, and a bisexual person has the opportunity to choose either. And is a refutation of the commonly heard refrain from a certain section of the (mostly) straight fundamentalist community that seems to believe- we are all really straight underneath but for reasons of perversity we actively choose to be with someone of the same gender.

 

Gman

 

Gman, here's the deal: I agree with your interpretation of what he said, and if this were a post on a board geared to the general public, I'd probably have passed this thread by. But it isn't. It's a post on a board geared toward men who hire men in which you described the quote as "so true" as if it had special meaning to you.

 

I don't have ESP, so I took that to mean that you agreed with Colby's statement rather than the point he was making with it. Now I know better.

 

That said, I still think the assumptions underlying the way Colby makes his point are uninformed at best and dangerous at worst. Maybe it's naive of me, but I think a forum composed of gay men (and a few women) can (should?) do better than that.

 

Also, if you think this is me being nitpicky... I can show you nitpicky. But I choose not to. I will, however, cop to being argumentative. Warning, though: I've had special training in arguing. It's called "law school."

[+ Gar1eth]

Unfortunately the world isn't perfect. Even if you were to look at the best psychological or sociological theory- the one with the most empiric evidence, you aren't going to cover every single person in every situation that the theorem covers. And people make choices based on unconcious reasonings/biologic imperatives all the time ( pheromones anyone).

 

I contend that we are an argumentative bunch ( myself included) who too often have the tendency to overread and nitpick things to death. I further contend that that is what has happened in this case. And that your average straight person would have no problems with the quote and would understand it immediately. For that matter, I understood it immediately. It is to be understood that it is neither Einstein's Theory Of Relativity nor the Sermon on The Mount and doesnt deserve the same level of introspection as those do.

 

It simply means that for the majority of us- way over the majority of the time- a straight person will be with a person of the opposite gender, a gay person will be with someone of the same gender, and a bisexual person has the opportunity to choose either. And is a refutation of the commonly heard refrain from a certain section of the (mostly) straight fundamentalist community that seems to believe- we are all really straight underneath but for reasons of perversity we actively choose to be with someone of the same gender.

 

Gman

 

Gman, here's the deal: I agree with your interpretation of what he said, and if this were a post on a board geared to the general public, I'd probably have passed this thread by. But it isn't. It's a post on a board geared toward men who hire men in which you described the quote as "so true" as if it had special meaning to you.

 

I don't have ESP, so I took that to mean that you agreed with Colby's statement rather than the point he was making with it. Now I know better.

 

That said, I still think the assumptions underlying the way Colby makes his point are uninformed at best and dangerous at worst. Maybe it's naive of me, but I think a forum composed of gay men (and a few women) can (should?) do better than that.

 

Also, if you think this is me being nitpicky... I can show you nitpicky. But I choose not to. I will, however, cop to being argumentative. Warning, though: I've had special training in arguing. It's called "law school."

 

Alas, the only training in argument that I have received is being a member of my family, and we can be quite a disputatious lot. I can hear my sainted and still alive mother, 'Can't you two quit arguing already?' As referring to me and my brother, my sister (not as much her), my very conservative uncle (whom I love deeply)., and etc.

 

I still think the quote cuts to the heart of the matter and refutes the idea that being gay is a choice in a very simple and intuitive fashion ( I could envision reading it in a Reader's Digest 'Quotable Quotes or Points to Ponder'(I'm a simple man at heart- and I love the vocabulary quiz). But I accept that it doesn't touch yours in the same way.

 

I guess we are both going to have to agree to disagree on how worthy a thought the quote encompasses, and NEVERMORE (I'd been waiting for a good place to slip that in ) stain the 'ink' of the Forum discussing it again (or at least not anytime soon )

 

And in closing may I be one of the first to whole-heartedly welcome you to the Forum ( if there have been numerous others, then mea culpa; I don't follow every thread).

 

It looks like the Forum is now fortunate enough to have it's own guardian of the crossroads- FreshFluff, Tyro, and Quoththeraven. May the triad ever be blessed!!

 

Gman

[+ quoththeraven]

Alas, the only training in argument that I have received is being a member of my family, and we can be quite a disputatious lot. I can hear my sainted and still alive mother, 'Can't you two quit arguing already?' As referring to me and my brother, my sister (not as much her), my very conservative uncle (whom I love deeply)., and etc.

 

I still think the quote cuts to the heart of the matter and refutes the idea that being gay is a choice in a very simple and intuitive fashion ( I could envision reading it in a Reader's Digest 'Quotable Quotes or Points to Ponder'(I'm a simple man at heart- and I love the vocabulary quiz). But I accept that it doesn't touch yours in the same way.

 

I guess we are both going to have to agree to disagree on how worthy a thought the quote encompasses, and NEVERMORE (I'd been waiting for a good place to slip that in ) stain the 'ink' of the Forum discussing it again (or at least not anytime soon )

 

And in closing may I be one of the first to whole-heartedly welcome you to the Forum ( if there have been numerous others, then mea culpa; I don't follow every thread).

 

It looks like the Forum is now fortunate enough to have it's own guardian of the crossroads- FreshFluff, Tyro, and Quoththeraven. May the triad ever be blessed!!

 

Gman

 

I like "homosexuality is not a choice." Even simpler and more to the point. Not trying to make clever arguments that can't be supported. Or, if you want to get fancy, "my homosexuality is as much a choice as your heterosexuality."

 

My father's siblings were the most argumentative bunch I've ever known. He only had sisters. But I know some who think training gives me an unfair advantage when it comes to argumentation.

 

Thank you for the welcome! I don't know if that makes us the Furies or the Fates. Pretty scary either way, huh?

[tyro]

Well, I'd call us the three Graces.

T

[+ quoththeraven]

Well, I'd call us the three Graces.

T

 

Ooh, I forgot about them! I knew there was another group. I thought of the Muses, but generally there are nine of them.

 

Can you tell I read too many horror novels?

[+ Gar1eth]

Thank you for the welcome! I don't know if that makes us the Furies or the Fates. Pretty scary either way, huh?

 

Well, I'd call us the three Graces.

T

 

Ooh, I forgot about them! I knew there was another group. I thought of the Muses, but generally there are nine of them.

 

Can you tell I read too many horror novels?

 

I was thinking more of Hekate-

 

Hecate, Greek goddess of the three paths, guardian of the household, protector of everything newly born, and the goddess of witchcraft -- once a widely revered and influential goddess, the reputation of Hecate has been tarnished over the centuries. In current times, she is usually depicted as a "hag" or old witch stirring the cauldron.

 

But nothing could be further from the image of Hecate's original glory.

 

But obviously only in the sense of her original glory!!!

 

Gman

[+ quoththeraven]

Gman - I was trying to think of mythological groups of three women, not individual goddesses. If we're picking goddesses, I'd call dibs on Athena, but tyro and FF might fight me over that.

 

Or, given the nature of this board, maybe Ishtar/Astarte.

[AdamSmith]

These last few delightful posts make me regret that H.P. Lovecraft never, to my knowledge, conceived any specifically female-identified Great Old Ones in his Cthulhu mythos.

 

(Or did I, by ignorance revealed, just forfeit my place in R'lyeh?)

 

(Although the narrator's 80,000-year-old great-grandmother Deep One in 'The Shadow over Innsmouth' is a reasonable nod in some direction or other.)