Boy meets Boy Finale

[Spida]

So did everyone think that Franklin was straight? It was my first guess but the thought I had was that if Franklin was the straight guy it was tooo easy! I would have picked Wes also he really turned me on his attitude and he was so cute.. I thought Franklin was a hottie also!! Probably hotter than Wes but I loved Wes his attitude and personality.. Just wondering..

[jackhammer91406]

I too had thought Franklin was the str8 guy from as far back as the 3rd or 4th episode. Of course we all can say that now that we know, but really, he seemed too forced when he tried to blend in. I personally would have picked Brian as my fantasy date because in addition to one of the best bodies (I know...very shallow of me and also stereotypical) I felt he was the most soulful. But that is all a matter of taste.

Of the original 15, seven were str8 and I had pegged six of the seven. I was wrong on two. I thought one guy was str8 who wasn't and one guy was gay who wasn't.

In spite of all the negative things that have been directed at this show, I have to say that having a show like this on TV would have made coming out a lot easier if it had shown when I was growing up. It's easy to criticize it now, when society seems more open to gays than ever before, but 25 years ago, there was really nothing like this. Yes there was SOAP and that was a breakthrough, but two guys romantically kissing (not actors) that's new. I think overall it was a good thing in retrospect and am glad the thing was shown.

[NASAguy]

I too would have chosen Brian had I been in James' place but I though Wes was very cute as well.

 

What I really enjoyed seeing on TV, however, was the final kiss between James and Wes. At last, instead of the quick peck on the cheek that had been passing as a kiss all through the series, we had what appeared to be a true, passionate embrace and kiss between the 2 guys. To me it was the first evidence of real gay emotion displayed and in the context could be enjoyed (hopefully) by the straight audience as well.

 

Ken

[kaimakan]

At first I was really happy for Wes, who seems like a great guy and perfect boy friend material. But then I remembered what a crashing bore James turned out to be. How long does anyone think this relationship will last? I for one will be very surprised if it survives the trip to New Zealand.

[BuckyXTC]

I think this show ranged from corny to goofy. The most boring boy was James himself. And that final scene was too much.....James and Wes looked like a couple of dying calves in a hailstorm. This may be one reality show where the "losers" were really the "winners".

[+ Charlie]

I thought James matured considerably in the last two episodes. He handled the final elimination much better than most of the earlier ones. He let Franklin know how he felt in a dignified manner, without complaining or being bitchy, and left Franklin hanging uncomfortably rather than providing a phony "it's OK, we're all friends now" resolution (well, let's face it: it's fun to see a gorgeous straight guy who has played games with a gay man's affections get his comeuppance). I was surprised all along that Brian made it to the final three, and it became increasingly obvious that he cared more about whether James wanted him than whether he wanted James (he as much as said that he really wanted Dan!). So, I wiped away a tear as James and Wes flew off into the sunset. I wonder what they did in New Zealand when they finally discovered they were sexually incompatible.

 

Which reminds me that I find it impossible to believe that you can throw a group of attractive young gay men, all strangers, in a house together for a week with lots of romantic activities and nothing else to do, and nothing happens: no sex, no flirting, no groping or kissing, not even any hard-ons. The only explicitly sexual statement I can remember was Sean's comment later that he was worried that the others would notice, during the lap dancing, that he wasn't "aroused" (implying that some of them visibly were). The price of public acceptance still seems to be that gay men be presented as harmless, non-sexual beings who just want to sing and dance and hold hands.

[woodlawn]

I wasn't surprised that Franklin turned out to be straight. I was surprised that James had picked two other finalists who were not among the more attractive or interesting people in the group. In picking Wes he seems to have made the worst possible choice -- someone who is not attractive and whose personality is a rather grating combination of effeminacy and cockiness.

 

I was pleased that James gave Franklin a piece of his mind for being deceptive. It's unfortunate that James is not articulate enough to make his point a bit better than the rather muddled remarks about "infiltrating" that he came up with. I suppose it would not be easy for the producers to find someone bright enough to do that who would also be willing to participate in such an absurd game, however.

 

I do give the producers credit for including that final montage of remarks by various contestants, all of whom seemed to be saying that the show demonstrates how trivial the differences are between gay men and straights. Good point.

[woodlawn]

>James and Wes looked like a couple of dying calves in

>a hailstorm.

 

Kudos for one of the most original metaphors I've seen this year.

 

[BuckyXTC]

>>James and Wes looked like a couple of dying calves in

>>a hailstorm.

>

>Kudos for one of the most original metaphors I've seen this

>year.

 

Thanks, Woodie! Glad you liked it.

[skins1]

Yeah, but who's the top?

[Guest DickHo]

We know James isn't!

[+ Hoover42]

>like a a couple of dying calves in a hailstorm.

 

Would someone explain this metaphor to me?

[Guest alanm]

I totally disagree. To me, neither James nor Franklin came off well.

 

Why didn't James direct his anger at Dani and Bravo rather than Frank,

who was defenseless? James may well have gotten angry at Dani when she told him about the twist and Bravo edited it out. He also could

have walked off the show and called a press conference with GLAD to blast Bravo. Instead James got the $25,000 and the trip to New Zealand and his day on national TV to remind us how tough it is to be gay.

 

Franklin was all over the place in his response and did not come across better or worse than James. He lied about at lot of things not just pronouns, as he stated. What about his coming out of the closest story and his story above "dating girls from other school."

 

I ended up liking Brian the best. If Franklin had been gay, Brian and

Franklin in NZ would have been a nice finish.

[VaHawk]

Yeah, we don't have to read about this pathetic excuse for a tv show anymore since it was the FINALE!!!!

[BuckyXTC]

>>like a a couple of dying calves in a hailstorm.

>

>Would someone explain this metaphor to me?

>

 

In a nutshell, addled, pathetic, and beyond hope.

[+ Hoover42]

OK, thanks.

[+ Charlie]

I'm sure James had signed an ironclad contract to go through with the entire "game". He came across as rather naive, but anyone who watches reality shows knows that they all have "twists" (e.g., "For Love or Money"); although this one was particularly nasty, James should have been prepared for that, since there had been no real twist previously, other than being forced to choose between members of a pair. Given the hand he had to play, I think he came out of it with his self-respect intact.

 

Since Franklin was the most articulate of the participants, I was surprised that he hadn't prepared a better response. I agree with you that he lied when he said he hadn't lied about anything except pronouns. He seemed genuinely taken aback that he wasn't chosen and that James turned so cold toward him. However, I think he could have a good career as a slimy but attractive character in daytime soap opera.

[+ Charlie]

They're both power bottoms.

[Will]

I couldn't agree more with Woodie's observation that James managed to narrow the field of gay men to two of the less attractive ones, although I'd rather take a vacation with sweet, dumb-but-funny Brian -- who, at least, is hot -- than with that silly twit, Wes.

 

But I'm not James. At the very end, in the final interview with Franklin, I think I got some insight into James's psychology. He has very, very little ego (in the healthy sense of the word) and seems deeply afraid of life, both of which make me wonder if there isn't some serious, sustained abuse in his background. Consequently, he's so passive that it takes an earthquake for him to seek shelter. (That may explain his need for Andra the Control Freak.)

 

Whatever his own sense of helplessness may be, he sure did pull himself together when he gave Franklin a piece of his mind. Not only did James express -- not eloquently, but then Franklin is hardly sensitive to nuance -- his anger and sense of betrayal. He also refused to let Franklin get away with saying that we're all the same except for the pronouns. Maybe it's true that, under the skin, gay and straight men are the same (whatever that means). However, at the surface of life where we do our preliminary negotiating with other human beings, even good-looking young gay men like James lead entirely different erotic and emotional lives than good-looking young straight men like Franklin. Franklin, in a word, was slumming. The smugness, callousness, and utter narcissism he revealed at the end were not only breath-taking, but nauseating. Suddenly, I saw that James was wise to eliminate Franklin, for whatever reason.

 

Likewise, at the very end I also understood why James chose Wes. I wouldn't have chosen Wes, but, repeating myself, I'm not James. Wes has the boldness, derring-do, and sense of fun that James lacks. And he has it more than most of the other contestants. That's why, I think, Wes's encouraging James on the rock climb continued to loom so large in James's thoughts about Wes. It may be mere bravado or even foolhardiness, but to James Wes's behavior and attitudes look courageous. The concluding seconds of the scene showed me that James's instincts, in the end, had served him well. After they kiss, Wes says, "Let's go." "Where?" James asks. "I dunno," Wes replies. He takes James by the hand and leads him out of the scene.

 

While the action may have been blocked, I don't believe that the dialogue was written. I think it was spontaneous and that it perfectly expressed what each of those two vapid young men saw in the other. Love is hard to find, anywhere, and I hope that James and Wes feel that they have concluded their search. Long may they wave.

[woodlawn]

>But I'm not James. At the very end, in the final interview

>with Franklin, I think I got some insight into James's

>psychology. He has very, very little ego (in the healthy

>sense of the word) and seems deeply afraid of life, both of

>which make me wonder if there isn't some serious, sustained

>abuse in his background.

 

 

As you know, I'm not a fan of amateur psychoanalysis, among other reasons because those who practice it seem to reach for complex explanations when much more simple ones are available. During the show James said he had had several previous relationships -- it was either two or three -- all of which had ended due to infidelity. If so, it shouldn't come as a shock that he's wary of making an emotional investment in anyone else.

 

>Maybe

>it's true that, under the skin, gay and straight men are the

>same (whatever that means).

 

It means that the differences in most cases have nothing to do with anything other than what happens in the bedroom. That is the whole basis for arguing that there is no good reason for discrimination against gays.

 

>However, at the surface of life

>where we do our preliminary negotiating with other human

>beings, even good-looking young gay men like James lead

>entirely different erotic and emotional lives than

>good-looking young straight men like Franklin.

 

That may be so in the sense that the dating behavior of some gay men is more like that of straight women than that of straight men. And perhaps James is one of those. But "entirely different emotional lives"? Do you mean that if both men lost a close relative, won the lottery or witnessed a murder their emotional reactions would be entirely different? How so?

[axebahia]

>They're both power bottoms.

 

power bottoms with or without energy?

[chrismac]

I agree Bucky - If I had been one of the contestants, I would have done all I could to get axed off that show, just to get away from James and his weirdo fag hag girl-pal. To hell with the $25,000.00

 

I only saw two episodes, one near the beginning, and the next to the last episode. I was sure Franklin was the straight one too. He just seemed like he was trying too hard to come up with sensitive things to say, to put himself in a gay man's shoes. Admirable job though - I'll give him that. Seemed like a nice guy.

[Will]

>As you know, I'm not a fan of amateur psychoanalysis,

 

Neither am I, nor am I an amateur psychoanalyst. However, over the course of nearly thirty years of a professional career that involves me constantly, closely, and sometimes intimately with other people I have learned, occasionally with the collaboration of professional psychologists, carefully to observe the behavior of all kinds of people for the purpose of deriving helpful if not expert insights into their motivations and problems. At all events, my drawing hypotheses about James's motives isn't psychoanalysis any more than your saying he's gun-shy in relationships is. Both your observations and mine reflect efforts to understand why another human being behaves the way he does. There's nothing very complex about my thoughts regarding James.

 

>It means that the differences in most cases have nothing to do

>with anything other than what happens in the bedroom. That is

>the whole basis for arguing that there is no good reason for

>discrimination against gays.

 

You're in good company when you argue that the only difference between gay men and straight men is what they do in the bedroom. And I'm in good company when I disagree. It's my view that sexual orientation conditions practically every response we have to other human beings, whatever the nature of our relationship. I don't believe that a straight brother and a gay brother will regard their mother or their sisters in the same ways. Although this isn't the place to discuss the issue, that is why at another time I would try to convince you that your categorical statements beginning "It means that..." and "That is the whole basis..." are not statements of fact but of interpretation. So, by the way, are the statements of mine that gave rise to yours.

 

>That may be so in the sense that the dating behavior of some

>gay men is more like that of straight women than that of

>straight men. And perhaps James is one of those. But

>"entirely different emotional lives"? Do you mean that if

>both men lost a close relative, won the lottery or witnessed a

>murder their emotional reactions would be entirely different?

>How so?

 

I'm talking about a lot more than dating behavior. Imagine for a moment that James and Franklin have identical IQs, identical GPAs from the same first-rate liberal arts college, and rank, say, 14th and 15th in their graduating class from Harvard Law School. Let's also imagine that James and Franklin are the two finalists for a single position in a prestigious Wall Street firm. A few of the partners give a little dinner party to help them make the decision, and ask James and Franklin to bring their Significant Others. Do you believe that James and Franklin will prepare for the evening anticipating the same response to their dates, James's a man and Franklin's a woman? Do you expect that the firm's partners will welcome James and his date with the same conviviality they extend to Franklin and his date? Do you believe that the subsequent discussion about whom to hire will completely overlook the evidence of their sexual orientations? Will James's being gay make any difference at all, even an unspoken difference, when it comes to choosing between him and Franklin?

 

Because attitudes towards sexual orientation (one's own as well as that of others) is a subset of attitudes towards gender, I conclude that sexual orientation influences -- not necessarily determines -- everything we think and feel about ourselves and other people, as well as much of what other people think and feel about us.

 

So I'm unmoved: Yes, I truly mean that James and Franklin live in entirely different erotic and emotional worlds. How they would respond to the deaths of their mothers and fathers would differ, of course, for many reasons. But one reason would be that James is gay and Franklin is straight.

[Guest alanm]

I agree about the ironclad contract. Bravo also picked someone who

is not really into aggressive behavior and about grapping the limelight on an issue concerning a reality show that no one had seen.

 

I read an interview with Franklin today in TVGO. He initially nixes

an acting career, but then leaves the door open. Franklin would be perfect the soap role you mentioned.

 

I did not mention Wes, who reminds be of a graduate of EST or it's modern equivalent. Nice guy, but a little too on.

 

Again, I liked Brian the best, followed by Franklin. (The only person who claimed to know Franklin on the internet --- a female Marquette student --- said that he dated women, but many people thought he was gay. So on that, he apparently did not lie).

[woodlawn]

>At all events, my drawing hypotheses about

>James's motives isn't psychoanalysis any more than your saying

>he's gun-shy in relationships is.

 

I disagree. Your statements about possible abuse in his background represent the classic psychoanalytic technique of seeking the roots of adult behavior in childhood trauma. All I suggested was that he may be wary of new relationships because he's been burned in the recent past -- which is pretty much what he said about himself on the show.

 

>Although this isn't the place to discuss the

>issue, that is why at another time I would try to convince you

>that your categorical statements beginning "It means that..."

>and "That is the whole basis..." are not statements of fact

>but of interpretation.

 

No, they are simple statements of logic. The whole concept of unacceptable discrimination in our history and jurisprudence rests on the notion that the discrimination is based on prejudice rather than on real differences between the victim group and the rest of the community. If the differences ARE real, on the other hand, it becomes far more difficult to argue that the discrimination is unjustified. If there's no difference between the performance of gays and others in the workplace, for example, then there's no reason why an employer should refuse to hire a gay man. But if gay men are more likely to have personal habits that result in increased absenteeism, for example, then there IS a reason why an employer should discriminate.

 

>Do you

>believe that James and Franklin will prepare for the evening

>anticipating the same response to their dates, James's a man

>and Franklin's a woman? Do you expect that the firm's

>partners will welcome James and his date with the same

>conviviality they extend to Franklin and his date? Do you

>believe that the subsequent discussion about whom to hire will

>completely overlook the evidence of their sexual orientations?

> Will James's being gay make any difference at all, even an

>unspoken difference, when it comes to choosing between him and

>Franklin?

 

It very well may, but that difference has nothing to do with differences in the two men's emotional lives, it has to do with the attitudes of other people. Even if James and Franklin are emotionally identical in every respect, that doesn't change the fact that others may erroneously perceive them as different.