On escort/client friendship -- again

[corndog]

Based on their posts here, I have a great deal of respect for both Steve and Elliot. Clearly, they have different approaches, but I don't think either is right or wrong. However, I'd like to suggest that another thing that may be at play here is the cultural differences between the British and the Americans. Stereotypes and generalizations only go so far, but I believe that British traditions place more value on privacy and respect for client/provider roles, where Americans are often regarded as inappropriately friendly and egalitarian. Using Steve's example, I think it would be highly unusual in British culture to make friends with the washing machine repairman, but as an American, I wouldn't think twice about it.

[elliotpierce]

Based on their posts here, I have a great deal of respect for both Steve and Elliot. Clearly, they have different approaches, but I don't think either is right or wrong. However, I'd like to suggest that another thing that may be at play here is the cultural differences between the British and the Americans. Stereotypes and generalizations only go so far, but I believe that British traditions place more value on privacy and respect for client/provider roles, where Americans are often regarded as inappropriately friendly and egalitarian. Using Steve's example, I think it would be highly unusual in British culture to make friends with the washing machine repairman, but as an American, I wouldn't think twice about it.

 

That post could not have been any more incredibly written.

[TruHart1]

Based on their posts here, I have a great deal of respect for both Steve and Elliot. Clearly, they have different approaches, but I don't think either is right or wrong. However, I'd like to suggest that another thing that may be at play here is the cultural differences between the British and the Americans. Stereotypes and generalizations only go so far, but I believe that British traditions place more value on privacy and respect for client/provider roles, where Americans are often regarded as inappropriately friendly and egalitarian. Using Steve's example, I think it would be highly unusual in British culture to make friends with the washing machine repairman, but as an American, I wouldn't think twice about it.

 

I agree with Elliot. Wow corndog! That is sort of what I tried to say earlier but you are so much more succinct about it than I was. In addition, I think you are probably on the money with your idea about the cultural differences between Brits and Yanks. A truly excellent post that goes straight to the heart of the matter. Thanks!

 

TruHart1:cool:

[SteveEscort]

Based on their posts here, I have a great deal of respect for both Steve and Elliot. Clearly, they have different approaches, but I don't think either is right or wrong. However, I'd like to suggest that another thing that may be at play here is the cultural differences between the British and the Americans. Stereotypes and generalizations only go so far, but I believe that British traditions place more value on privacy and respect for client/provider roles, where Americans are often regarded as inappropriately friendly and egalitarian. Using Steve's example, I think it would be highly unusual in British culture to make friends with the washing machine repairman, but as an American, I wouldn't think twice about it.

 

That's simply not true. Next you'll be saying we all play cricket and drink Pimms on an afternoon.

 

There are plenty of American escorts who prefer their privacy, as has been shown on this subject. I have absolutely no objections to being friendly with clients but I'm unlikely to hang out with any of them for Pizza on an evening. My argument was never about that, it was about ensuring that clients are not seen to be pitied because they hire escorts. You seem to have completely missed that point.

 

We're not all reserved, stiff upper lip types in England, far from it, I've lots and lot of regular clients who come and see me but very few of them want anything more than the time we spend together during that appointment.

[Guest Starbuck]

I have absolutely no objections to being friendly with clients but I'm unlikely to hang out with any of them for pizza on an evening. My argument was never about that, it was about ensuring that clients are not seen to be pitied because they hire escorts.

 

I don't think anyone suggested PITY. I don't even think there's all that much disagreement running through this thread even though the tone has been a bit contentious at times. I have read the other thread Steve started on "Terminal Illness" and I appreciate and applaud his COMPASSION. As a relatively inexperienced client (nervous some of the time, not as great in the sack with a guy as I would like to be), I don't want or expect pity. But if an escort finds a way to take our encounter beyond sex and lets me feel his kindness, generosity, warmth--well, wow.

 

I'm pretty sure that Steve brought up the word "pity" because of Elliot's reference to "loneliness." Having a family, friends, loving and being loved--these gifts don't necessarily mean that there isn't an inner loneliness in many of us, particularly for those of us who know we are gay men but don't live openly as such. A little loneliness isn't necessarily a crippling thing. I don't think there's any shame in admitting it or in valuing the feeling of human connection that sometimes happens with physical intimacy. It's exactly what the man in Steve's post on "Terminal Illness" needed, exactly what Steve generously gave.

 

All-out friendship is another matter ... a step beyond. If either an escort or a client doesn't want it, it can't happen. If they're both open to it, it still might not happen. There are often circumstances (relationships, marriages, families, jobs, fear of being exploited, fear of being stalked) standing in the way. But just from reading this thread we know that sometimes--sometimes--all those barriers are broken down and two guys who like each other just get to be ... two guys who like each other.

[maninsoma]

I agree that Steve and Elliot simply need to agree to disagree. They obviously have different experiences and approach this profession from a different point of view, and they will attract (and retain) different types of clients because of that. Nothing wrong with that.

[SteveEscort]

I agree that Steve and Elliot simply need to agree to disagree. They obviously have different experiences and approach this profession from a different point of view, and they will attract (and retain) different types of clients because of that. Nothing wrong with that.

 

 

That's fair enough, I only turned up the heat a notch because I didn't like the lonely comment. I've come across lonely clients and they're not the norm.

 

I am not a big fan of the escort/client friendship outside of appointments thing. Thinking its an American thing rather than Anglo thing is daft, personally I think its more of an age thing. From my experiences, younger escorts are probably more open to a client/friendship relationship than someone like me nearing 40.

 

Yo would think, in a country where prostitution is practically illegal, more escorts and clients would want to remain anonymous. In England, sex work is completely legal, for both myself and the client, I don't seem to have a huge amount of clients wanting to take things a step further.

[Michael Wayne]

yes. now that i am single for the first time in forever I have the freedom to choose my own friends and i must say that several of my best current clients are now my best friends as well. no issues at all. http://www.rentboy.com/magicmikey

[corndog]

Steve, I offer my heartfelt apology if you interpreted my post as accusing you of being stereotypical. I didn't mean to suggest that, and I don't think it is productive to use stereotypes to pre-judge people. What I was trying to say is that this question illustrates the basis for these kinds of stereotypes. The discussion is an interesting way to reflect on our own attitudes, and I don't think your approach is in any way inferior to Elliot's. Your position is your truth, and there is nothing wrong with it. Now, excuse me, while I go make friends with the washing machine repairman.

 

I think the original question is very interesting, and always a tricky situation to navigate. The way I'm wired, when I'm intimate with someone I tend to feel a deep personal connection with them, even if it is just for the moments of our interaction. There have been times when I've taken it to the "real friend" level, and it's very hard at first to tell whether the friendship is real or just professional.

 

At one point, when I prepared to jump off the cliff and risk both the potential friendship, and the awesome sexual connection, I said, basically, "I'm really glad we've become friends, but I'm starting to think of you more like a 'sister,' and I think it'll just be too weird if we have sex again, so I won't be hiring you anymore." After saying something like this, I'll know the score pretty damn quick. If it's a real friendship, it will continue. If it wasn't, I'll need to find a new escort. If I'm not willing to risk the escort relationship for the sake of the friendship, perhaps it was ME who didn't really believe it was a true friendship.

[SteveEscort]

Steve, I offer my heartfelt apology if you interpreted my post as accusing you of being stereotypical. I didn't mean to suggest that, and I don't think it is productive to use stereotypes to pre-judge people. What I was trying to say is that this question illustrates the basis for these kinds of stereotypes. The discussion is an interesting way to reflect on our own attitudes, and I don't think your approach is in any way inferior to Elliot's. Your position is your truth, and there is nothing wrong with it. Now, excuse me, while I go make friends with the washing machine repairman. ;

Ill let you off the hook on this occasion. I'm kind like that

[Griffin Donavon]

Never

 

As hard as it sounds, I came to this world for a financial need, they came to this world for a sexual need or male to male bonding need. I have my cats, my house and my friends.

 

Clients say to me time and time again "Steve you won't ever contact me or use the number displayed".. No I won't and that applies to the ones that want that and tell me to keep their number. I have never and never will contact a client outside this work.

 

Clients who welcome such contact are needing something more than a discreet paid liaison. Most of my clients just want a no fuss fun. I see some clients every week and its on a "call me only" basis, when they need my service. To contact them would feel needy and sordid, like I was touting for business.

 

I have a personal life outside this work and a good job too and therefore, a crossover isn't applicable in my circumstances.

 

I've been doing this work a long time and I have a good balance where this concerns. It's never made me unpopular in this sort of work, infact because I never ever contact clients its probably brought those good regular clients back time and time again. Ive heard so many horror stories of gay escorts texting businessmen and telling them they help with their rent. It starts off with a gentle Hello and leads, over weeks, to a needy self obsession to get money.

 

At the end of the day, clients contact us, we put ourselves out there to be contacted and I feel the contact level should remain like that. They should contact us when they need us, we should never pry, encroach or concern ourselves with their personal lives.

 

I disagree, it really depends on what your looking for clientele.. I want to make a true connection with the gentlemen and I go beyond that of a meeting if I feel I should. To wishing them a happy holiday, too having a small chat on the phone to see how there doing. It's not needy, it is smart because it shows you care about them as a human being and not just a $$ sign. Which in turn is why some of the top escorts are older, not young and have the best business.. Better then me and I'm 23.. Looks are just one quality of many you need to survive.

[robberbaron4u]

Bottom line, gentleman: a friend is some one you can take home, without reservation, for Sunday dinner with your family. If you do not want to been seen in the company of an escort in the light of the day, the relationship ain't a friendship, it is a association of "convenience".

[maninsoma]

What about those of us who don't even want to go to Sunday dinner with our families by ourselves, much less with any friend or acquaintance?

 

Seriously, though, I don't quite relate to what you wrote. I'm not embarrassed to be seen in public with an escort, whether it's part of a paid engagement (such as dinner before play) or an off-the-clock activity. I figure that in the right setting, anyone who cares to observe me and my companion might surmise that there's a mercenary aspect to the relationship but I don't care. It isn't like I would take someone to a romantic restaurant and then start slobbering all over him. For all anyone knows we're just friends out for a nice dinner or, perhaps, my much hotter date just happens to be into me. I think the only reason to be embarrassed by being seen in public with an escort would be if you hire someone you really don't want to be with in private, either.

 

Bottom line, gentleman: a friend is some one you can take home, without reservation, for Sunday dinner with your family. If you do not want to been seen in the company of an escort in the light of the day, the relationship ain't a friendship, it is a association of "convenience".

[leigh.bess.toad]

I am not a big fan of the escort/client friendship outside of appointments thing. Thinking its an American thing rather than Anglo thing is daft, personally I think its more of an age thing. From my experiences, younger escorts are probably more open to a client/friendship relationship than someone like me nearing 40.

 

You all just know I couldn't keep out of this. Steve, I think you are just wrong, especially about the age thing. First of all, almost all the guys I hire are in the mid-30s to their 50s. My partner has met every single one of my escorts, multiple times. He has welcomed them into his house, and we've gone out to dinner with our own friends plus my escort. When you have an escort who flies across the country to see you before surgery just to make sure you are ok and all set, yeah, that's friendship. When other guys come to see you from hours away just to hang out, have dinner, to be friends, yeah, that's friendship. When you go visit the escort as friends (at their invitation) and they introduce you to his other friends he has outside of the business relationship and he tells them what the friendship we share means to him, yeah it's a friendship. And I am aware of similar things being done for others as well as me. But all of these things have happened to me in the last year alone, with guys mostly your age and older. Of all the escort I've hired, maybe 2 have been below the age of 30. Maybe it's your clientele that doesn't want it. And my situation is unique, I know. As pointed out on the thread about initial contact, in the last couple of years, I have had a relationship with my escorts (through here or through forum get-togethers) before we ever progressed to a hire. I will normally hear from a couple of my escorts every week, just checking in via text or email, seeing how things are, how my partner is doing, how my son is dong, how their life is doing. For me at least, the friendship with my escorts in the norm, not the exception. And it is always mutual and just develops naturally. It sure wasn't what I had thought it would be like when I had my first hire 3 years ago. But it is what it has become in my life.

[Griffin Donavon]

You all just know I couldn't keep out of this. Steve, I think you are just wrong, especially about the age thing. First of all, almost all the guys I hire are in the mid-30s to their 50s. My partner has met every single one of my escorts, multiple times. He has welcomed them into his house, and we've gone out to dinner with our own friends plus my escort. When you have an escort who flies across the country to see you before surgery just to make sure you are ok and all set, yeah, that's friendship. When other guys come to see you from hours away just to hang out, have dinner, to be friends, yeah, that's friendship. When you go visit the escort as friends (at their invitation) and they introduce you to his other friends he has outside of the business relationship and he tells them what the friendship we share means to him, yeah it's a friendship. And I am aware of similar things being done for others as well as me. But all of these things have happened to me in the last year alone, with guys mostly your age and older. Of all the escort I've hired, maybe 2 have been below the age of 30. Maybe it's your clientele that doesn't want it. And my situation is unique, I know. As pointed out on the thread about initial contact, in the last couple of years, I have had a relationship with my escorts (through here or through forum get-togethers) before we ever progressed to a hire. I will normally hear from a couple of my escorts every week, just checking in via text or email, seeing how things are, how my partner is doing, how my son is dong, how their life is doing. For me at least, the friendship with my escorts in the norm, not the exception. And it is always mutual and just develops naturally. It sure wasn't what I had thought it would be like when I had my first hire 3 years ago. But it is what it has become in my life.

 

Exactly and well said.

[unsub2O17]

Not much to add except my personal experience. I never sought a friendship with an escort (my life IS full), but it most definitely has happened. Use any definition you want: I've been invited out, and the escort has insisted on paying the bill (and "off the clock"). I've been invited on trips and excursions. On my part, I've even nursed a guy when he was sick. I'm a good listener, and I'm interested in them as persons. They're always asking me about my life. A number call me a friend, communicate often, ask my advice. So far, such closeness has only made the sex better, so it's all good.

[SteveEscort]

A number call me a friend, communicate often, ask my advice. So far, such closeness has only made the sex better, so it's all good.

 

If you're not with a partner or significant other I don't see the problem in that. For me, most of my clientele are married men, they don't exactly want the guy they hire to be contacting them when they feel like it.

 

I suppose the off the clock time is a personal decision. When I first started escorting in my 20s I never used to think about the time, I was trying to build up a client base and there were clients that would take advantage of that. Yes I have been to the theatre and for picnics with clients, but it tended to be more when I first started out. I liked the attention and so did the clients and that was really the backbone of what went on. After a year or so of escorting, I started to see patterns of regular clients coming back. You don't notice it so much in the first 6 or 7 months and I noticed that guys came back more and more frequently and the ones I sort of "dated" for want of a better word, didn't but they would call me on the off chance I fancied going to see a rock concert because they'd been given a couple of free tickets. Sometimes I would have to decline their offer because I had a few appointments booked in and eventually the interest from those clients wained off a bit.

 

Other times I would have an appointment booked in and wouldn't watch the clock, I'd don't watch the clock anyway but I have a fair old idea when an appointment is coming to an end. I would have a two hour appointment and stay for 4 hours, then kick myself when I checked my messages to see I'd lost £100 elsewhere that evening. Back to back appointments don't happen that often but when they do and you miss them you're mighty annoyed with yourself.

 

I made a rod for my own back with one good good client, i had seen him 8 or 9 times over a 6 month period and he came to visit me early afternoon and had just bought a Bentley, he asked me if I fancied a run in the car to a country pub in the highlands (I lived in Edinburgh at the time) as it was only an hour or so drive away and you were in the mountains. I said yes and I ended up staying overnight with him at a hotel. He started phoning constantly for a chitty chat and he had a business trip to Inverness planned. He asked me to come with him, a run out in the Bentley again, hotel, nice dinner and I couldn't make it. My cat had severed his paw on glass when roaming around outside and he had just had a major operation to save his claws as he couldn't retract them where the tendons had been severed. I had a two hour booked in that night which basically covered my credit card bill for the vets and he took great offence at this.

 

Unfortunately I had to work. My cat and the vets bill was more important than dinner and 4 hours of sex. I told him I couldn't afford to turn down the two hour appointment (thinking he might a least pay me the two hours) but he never offered and I never heard from him again. Had I just kept it as a paid relationship he might have booked a few more appointments, i felt that the crossover just about being friends with benefits. That isn't what I was offering, nor was it why he came to see me in the first place.

 

Since then, I've rarely got involved with clients. I have a couple of clients who do text me and check in with me and I've two or three I can text if I have any problems but its just kept superficial and friendly.

 

A year or so back I had a client, who is married, who text me and asked if i fancied going out for a meal after his next appointment but that the meal would off the clock. I agonised over it for a day and then eventually text back apologising for the delay and said yes. I went for the meal, it was very nice, I invited him back in for a coffee and he made signs that sex was on the cards again. It didn't obviously happen and that's the last I heard from him.

 

I suppose my negativity over the issue stems from experience. I was much happier to do that when when I was younger but ive seen the pitfalls in it and decided its not really for me

[maninsoma]

If I understand your latest post, Steve, it sounds like you allowed some clients to turn into friends with benefits situation, not just friends. I cannot speak to the experience of others who have posted in this thread so far, but I was simply speaking of becoming genuine friends with someone while at the same time continuing to hire them on the occasions I wanted to have sex with them. In other words, I never thought that our get togethers for meals or films were "dates," and I never anticipated that having sex would be part of those activities. I only expected sex when I scheduled a business appointment.

[SteveEscort]

Thing is if you read it properly you'll see I never really did friends with benefits, I stayed back a few times with clients. I went to Fort William and stayed at a hotel with a client off the clock, when the run out in the car became an overnight trip. Yes, he was lovely to me that day and i will admit, it went further that night. When i placed my other commitments above the FWB arrangement it didn't suit. Plus the recent pizza date fizzled out because I didn't want a friends with benefits arrangement again.

 

Admit it though, how many clients would turn down a fumble in bed with their friendly escort, if the escort gave the green light for it. I would expect it to be a very low number.

[maninsoma]

Thing is if you read it properly you'll see I never really did friends with benefits, I stayed back a few times with clients. I went to Fort William and stayed at a hotel with a client off the clock, when the run out in the car became an overnight trip. Yes, he was lovely to me that day and i will admit, it went further that night. When i placed my other commitments above the FWB arrangement it didn't suit. Plus the recent pizza date fizzled out because I didn't want a friends with benefits arrangement again.

 

Admit it though, how many clients would turn down a fumble in bed with their friendly escort, if the escort gave the green light for it. I would expect it to be a very low number.

 

Well, I did read your post properly, and you just repeated it: You went on an overnight outing with a client, ended up having sex with him without an agreement that he was paying you for that, and then he tried to repeat that experience. I certainly don't blame the client for trying a second time since you gave it up the first time! All I'm saying is that (a) I wouldn't attempt to do such a thing myself and (b) I wouldn't expect an escort to have sex with me for free simply because I've previously hired him and we've become friends. I've even slept in the same bed with someone I was hiring (once because my power was out for days and I was getting sick not having any heat or hot water, and later when he needed to crash at my place for a night). I didn't try to make the moves on him even though he was only a foot away from me. It is possible to become friends with a professional and maintain respect for their professional life. As another example, just because I become friends with my barber doesn't mean that I suddenly expect him to cut my hair for free.

[SteveEscort]

Steve, it sounds like you allowed some clients to turn into friends with benefits situation, not just friends.

 

I allowed one to happen on one night

 

In 14 years that was one not some, which is why I referred you back to my post

[unsub2O17]

It never entered my mind to either ask for or maneuver for in any way a freebie. I see four escorts on a regular basis. One wants to take me out (separate from our sessions) at least once a month. One eagerly spends meal time with me after a session whenever his schedule allows. One likes to spend an hour chatting at his place after a session and off the clock. One has kept our chatting time to part of the session for over a year now. I'm thrilled with all four of these guys, and I'd say that they run the gamut from Elliot's approach to Steve's approach.

[Steven_Draker]

Escorts, have you ever told a client that you considered him a friend? ("Friend" in the deepest sense, not just pal, fuck buddy, acquaintance, etc.) How did you convince him that you weren't just saying so as a ploy?

 

GP,

In friendship things usually happen naturally, without being forced and without any need to "convince" someone of your actions.

 

If you sense that something is a "ploy", then probably it is.

[Newly]

Wow. For a thread that has been "discussed before" and that no one is supposed to be interested in this thread has sure gotten a lot of replies and has brought out some real differences of opinion. Maybe it's not such a bad idea to rehash things once in a while if it interests people who haven't been on this board for years - any forum that doesn't post topics that interests its newer members ends up with only a small clique of members who have been there for years posting only about what interests them - and that's not good for the long term health of a forum.

[bigvalboy]

Wow. For a thread that has been "discussed before" and that no one is supposed to be interested in this thread has sure gotten a lot of replies and has brought out some real differences of opinion. Maybe it's not such a bad idea to rehash things once in a while if it interests people who haven't been on this board for years - any forum that doesn't post topics that interests its newer members ends up with only a small clique of members who have been there for years posting only about what interests them - and that's not good for the long term health of a forum.

 

Excellent point newtothis....I have never understood why long time members become irritated when they see a subject rehashed. Hopefully there will always be newer members here who have an opinion to express or a fresh view of a topic. Even seasoned members often will have a new experience to share. It is what keeps boards fresh, newer members interested, and enables them to share their experiences like many of us already have. So for this supposed tired, already rehashed topic...Let's see, 3 days, almost 50 posts, and 1500 + views....Hmmmm, it does make one think. Cheers NTT.