Banging my head against the wall...

[Xander]

What I really want to hear from people right now is that, in the real world, "it gets better":

 

I have a team member in a group project that is absolutely horrific in every way. I have led so many team projects, and have never had to deal with someone this bad.

 

Emails:

This is a semester long project - for the first half of the semester he did not respond to emails. We asked him, numerous times, to respond to emails. We were finally able to corner him with the professor present and demand that he start replying to emails. It seems like he now respond to emails with an incredibly fake attitude.

 

Not getting involved:

We have brought this up with the professor numerous times -- it seems like we have to force him to do anything. Professor responded by saying that some people prefer to be delegated tasks. We responded by delegating tasks. We (other coordinator and I) delegated a very simple assignment to each member before Spring Break to be emailed in to everyone by Sunday night. We see him in class and ask him why he didn't get his in - "Oh, I though the deadline was tonight"

 

Bullshit work:

We finally got in what was expected. We asked him to do some very simple research to back up our claims. His research was horrific; he managed to find research which directly goes against the basis of our entire project. I didn't think that this was even possible. When he isn't saying incredibly stupid shit, he is spewing fluff. 80% of his papers are full of words which have no meaning

 

Meetings:

He has missed numerous group meetings. He has missed, to date, about half.

 

What makes things worse is that so far on every project we have received a perfect grade. Why is this, you might ask? Because my teammate and I go through and re-do everything that everyone else has done to our standards. We would really like to see this kid flunk the class. The professor doesn't seem to be on our side or to be supportive at all ...

 

I can handle bullshit, but I can't handle bad work very well. If you're going to give me something, don't give me fluff. I'd rather you write one good sentence than 5 pages of useless garbage.

[corndog]

Well, when I was in college, I hated group projects.

 

Finally, I got to the point where I would select people to be on my team that I expected to be lazy, worthless losers, and then I'd do the whole project myself, have a final meeting at the end, and present them with the finished work. It may seem like I did way more than my fair share of the work, and that is probably true, but it was better than putting up with all the stupid team meetings, drama and infighting. And, I always felt like I was in control of my own destiny.

 

Alas, I've never become a good "team player" and have always tended to gravitate toward work situations where I work independently, or with one partner.

[+ FreshFluff]

Xander, I teach a class that has a group project, and every year, I hear stories like this about freeriders and flakes. It's a tough situation but part of the purpose of these projects is to prepare you for the real world by learning to work with all sorts of people, including credit hogs, flakes, and others. So the experience will serve you well in the future. Here's some advice:

 

-Send the person a professional sounding email telling him that he has missed X meetings. On the professor's advice, you delegated Y work to him, and he turned in Z etc. Include everything that has gone wrong. That way, you'll have some documentation that this happened. And if you're very lucky, he'll shape up.

 

-More likely, he'll protest but won't shape up. In that case, I'd forget about this person and work with the N-1 people your group has left. Trying to force this person to do work and dealing with the sub-par results takes up more time than doing it yourself.

 

-Do you have a peer evaluation due at the end of the project? If not, email the professor at the end of the semester. Thank the prof for his advice and tell him that you followed it, and forward the email you sent to the flake member.Tell him, in very factual, business-like terms, that after several tries, you had to do the work without the email. The idea is to let the prof know that you're effectively working with fewer group members than competing groups. When I'm faced with that sort of situation and the grade was on the borderline, I usually bump people up.

 

Good luck, Xander!

[+ Travis69]

All of this happens in the everyday workplace too. Get used to it. You only have to put up with it for another 55 years until you retire.

[bigvalboy]

All of this happens in the everyday workplace too. Get used to it. You only have to put up with it for another 55 years until you retire.

 

Exactly...sadly it gets worse in the corporate world.

[+ FreshFluff]

All of this happens in the everyday workplace too. Get used to it. You only have to put up with it for another 55 years until you retire.

 

Absolutely. As I said, part of the purpose of these projects is to prepare for that.

[Amoco]

Well, here's a very different perspective:

 

First of all, everybody understands the concept of " Well, get used to it because that's the real world, buddy!", and/or " This will be a valuable experience in terms of learning how to deal with these characters!", and to some limited extent, that's true. But you guys aren't there to learn group psychology, and you already tried telling the professor, who, from everything you said, punted in about 10 different ways. To continue to "pretend" that this guy is contributing to your work, is not only unfair, but dishonest in the sense that you are colluding with a student's conscious intent to take credit for work that isn't his, and that would be a violation of any college honor code that I've ever seen.

 

That said, the real nonsense here is the tendency of schools in general and specific teachers in particular, who shirk their own responsibility and push it on to you. Here's the letter(s) I would write:

 

1. ( In simple language for illustrative purposes):

Dear group colleague X: we've tried 1, 2, and 3, in addition to everything under the sun to try to get you to perform on

a level consistent with college work. You have failed in X,Y, Z way, and we have been forced to redo all of the work you

have contributed to date. As a result, this is your final warning advising you that if nothing changes with your next as-

Signment, the rest of the group has decided to fire you and is sending a copy of this note to both Prof. X and Dean Y.

 

OR

 

2. Dear Dean of Students: i regret to inform you that I have been put in an untenable situation that has resulted in me participating in a group project with an unmotivated student, which in turn has resulted in considerably more work for myself and my other colleagues. Given the high tuition I am paying to receive a very specific product, I am at a loss as to how my toleration of a problem student is either in my job description or the student handbook. Every meaningful attempt to work with this guy has failed, as has my professor. We are seeking relief and will refuse to work with this individual any longer.

 

Really, if everything you say is true, you should not put up with it. At the very least, kick him out of the group and refuse to work with him. That will force the situation to another level. Feel free to use the "Honor Code" argument if you have to, but honestly, it BS either way.

[seeker630]

All of this happens in the everyday workplace too. Get used to it. You only have to put up with it for another 55 years until you retire.

 

Exactly...sadly it gets worse in the corporate world.

 

I think it depends on where you work. The company I worked for became more stringent in it's annual reviews in later years, with annual performance reviews that required feedback from colleagues. Some workers were let go almost every year, and generally it was the less-competent who went first (until they had winnowed out all the slackers).

[+ deej]

All of this happens in the everyday workplace too. Get used to it. You only have to put up with it for another 55 years until you retire.

 

It's sadly true. Part of the learning process is learning to cope with the things that you WILL have to cope with in the real world.

 

Well, here's a very different perspective:

 

Valid also. Although nothing is ever 100% of one thing or another in these situations.

 

I think it depends on where you work. The company I worked for became more stringent in it's annual reviews in later years, with annual performance reviews that required feedback from colleagues. Some workers were let go almost every year, and generally it was the less-competent who went first (until they had winnowed out all the slackers).

 

Ugh. These systems always start out well by weeding out the dead wood. But then "the system" takes over and eventually, having pruned to the bone, it starts firing competent people. Once that starts it becomes difficult to retain competent people because they know that sooner or later it'll be their turn so you end up with just mediocre people who mostly know how to work the system. Microsoft has been in full thrall of this phenomenon the last couple of years. They've become fertile picking grounds for Google, et. al.

 

Note to Xander: you've obviously learned one of the most valuable lessons here. You know where to vent. Every profession has SOME form of online community that often includes discussions about on-the-job frustrations. Find it for your field and mine the wisdom of the community!

[seeker630]

Ugh. These systems always start out well by weeding out the dead wood. But then "the system" takes over and eventually, having pruned to the bone, it starts firing competent people. Once that starts it becomes difficult to retain competent people because they know that sooner or later it'll be their turn so you end up with just mediocre people who mostly know how to work the system. Microsoft has been in full thrall of this phenomenon the last couple of years. They've become fertile picking grounds for Google, et. al.

 

 

Exactly what happened. In the earlier years, poor appraisals simply meant no annual bonus or raises and perhaps some mentoring or closer monitoring. As times grew leaner, the appraisals determined lay-offs. I was in an industry that has been 'cutting costs' for the last 5 years or so - eliminating 'positions', not 'people'. My own job was eliminated,and all the sterling appriasals mattered not at all.

 

The state of the economy and your specific field definitely influence the consequences of both poor and good performance.

[+ Cash4Trash]

Xander, first rule for every supervisor. If it's not on paper it didn't happen. Send e-mails and memos detailing the sub par performance and copy your professor. Wouldn't go to the Dean, that's a whole new hornets nest.

And, if necessary, send a detailed memo to the professor recapping what you said in your meeting with him. Again, if it's not on paper it didn't happen.

[Xander]

Thanks for the feedback, everyone!

 

Xander, first rule for every supervisor. If it's not on paper it didn't happen. Send e-mails and memos detailing the sub par performance and copy your professor. Wouldn't go to the Dean, that's a whole new hornets nest.

And, if necessary, send a detailed memo to the professor recapping what you said in your meeting with him. Again, if it's not on paper it didn't happen.

 

Yep -- I've been adamant about having everything in emails from here on out. I think its ridiculous and inconsiderate that it has had to come to this -- oh well!

[+ FreshFluff]

Xander, first rule for every supervisor. If it's not on paper it didn't happen. Send e-mails and memos detailing the sub par performance and copy your professor. Wouldn't go to the Dean, that's a whole new hornets nest.

And, if necessary, send a detailed memo to the professor recapping what you said in your meeting with him. Again, if it's not on paper it didn't happen.

 

I'd only send periodic updates to the professor rather than cc-ing everything. As with a supervisor, you want bothering him too much. But make sure to keep all your emails to the laggard group member and yes, be as detailed as possible

 

Going to the dean is similar to going to the CEO: Go to him only as a last resort, for example if you feel a grade is unfair.

[Amoco]

Why is everybody so afraid of the Dean? He works for you and it's not like you need him for something. If you get no relief from the Dean and don't go to the Dean, whatever happens will be your responsibility. It is simply absurd that anyone in any school would be expected to tolerate a group project where one of three participants doesn't do the work or adds to it. NOTHING about that experience has anything to do with school, and you shouldn't let them stuff it down your throat. Ask yourself why going to he Dean is wrong if the Professor ignores you....

[Xander]

Ah - wasn't planning on going to the dean. Now days going to the dean is incredibly difficult ... can take up a month before he is 'available' to hear what you have to say. That is, if his secretaries think its worth listening to.

 

Every professor I have spoken with has told me that "This is the best preparation for the real world" bull fucking shit. My money is being wasted to teach me to learn how to deal with dead weight?

[Irtwo]

Well, when I was in college, I hated group projects. Finally, I got to the point where I would select people to be on my team that I expected to be lazy, worthless losers, and then I'd do the whole project myself.....

 

I had the same atttitude about group projects when I was in college and I utilized the exact same solution as you did. It worked out great, as the loser students I picked were happy to get a good grade without doing any work, and I was happy to be doing it all myself.

[corndog]

I think that reporting to the professor, or the dean, depends entirely on the culture of the school. In the university I attended, that wouldn't have worked.

[+ FreshFluff]

Amaco, the classes that Xander is taking are meant not just to teach content, but to help students work in and lead groups. Business schools who survey graduates find that the most useful school comes from group work.

 

The way most professors deal with freeloaders it is to have a peer evaluation in which each group member evaluates the other group members on a 1 to 10 scale. If one member receives very low ratings, then his grade is bumped down and the other group members' grades are bumped up (if they're on the borderline). Based on the peer evals I've seen, I'd say that about 1/3 of the groups in my class have a freeloader. Of those, about 2 groups per year are concerned enough to approach me about the issue.

 

The reason that going to the Dean is a last resort is that it's best to "save" the Dean for situations in which he'll have the most impact. For example, you might want to see him if you're contesting a grade. I know several Deans, and there's very little they can or will do in the situation that Xander described.

[Amoco]

I appreciate your points, and have been around schools as a student, an administrator and a parent. I get the concept of "this will better prepare you" because I lived it, and I'm here to tell you that anyone that thinks hat Xander's position can reasonably be justified with educational platitudes, is missing the boat. The concept depends on the implied contract between the student and hi university in which the school commits to providing support and guidance consistent with their mission. Part of that expectation is the notion that the students selected to be part of the other students can and will do the work required. Now, within that expectation there can be wide variation that would allow students to have the experience figuring out how to deal with other characters. But the guy that Xander describes is way beyond "quirky" or "a personality". He's blatantly refusing to go to meetings, participate in a meaningful way or do he work expected. On top if that, he causes he others o o more than they should have to. That breech trumps ll the other crap. I'm always so struck by everyone's anxiety around school administrators - this is THEIR failure. The problems that Xander presented are not eccentricities - they're serious issues that truly, in the real world, would result in termination. Don't put up with it.