Safe Sex / HIV+ Men / Barebacking

[corndog]

Forgive me if you feel like these topics have been over-discussed, but I think we can never talk about these topics enough. So, bear with me:

 

A while back, I hired an (allegedly "therapeutic") masseur for an incall at my hotel. He was giving me an excellent, skilled massage, but as he worked, his (fully clothed) crotch kept thrusting itself against my hand on the table. Eventually, I was unable to ignore the not-so-subtle actions, and subtly responded. This quickly heated up, his clothes came off, and we were soon off the massage table and on the bed. Hot.

 

As his professional masseur persona faded, an aggressive, dominant top appeared, and although I'm not particularly into that, I'm pretty flexible and open to lots of things. He got a tiny bit rough and man-handled me a bit as he worked my ass, and that all felt oh so good, even if a little unfamiliar.

 

This was all fine a good, until I started to realize that he wasn't just rubbing his dick against my ass, but intent on penetrating. I wasn't mentally or physically prepared for that, and interrupted the scene by clearly and strongly saying "not without a condom!"

 

"Of course," he replied, and stopped trying to thrust himself into my ass -- for about 5 seconds. Then, he was trying to thrust his dick into my hole again. As good as that felt (and it really, really, really did) my wits prevailed, and I took control of my legs, limited access to my ass, and focused on my own pleasure. I could feel his disappointment, but we both managed to get off and, amazingly, resume the professional massage.

 

As he left, he seemed to be sincere when he said "sorry about that mishap," referring to the professional lapse that most of us would call "hot sex." I closed the door and pondered what had just transpired. Hot. Weird. Scary. My mind still occasionally wanders back to that event, trying to process it, and trying to decide whether I should hire him again. Was this, as he represented, an anomaly? He acted as if he never does anything like this. Would it happen again? Would he see me, be embarrassed, and refuse the massage?

 

But mostly, I feel confused about the potential barebacking. "What was he thinking?" I ask myself. I made my safe sex requirement clear, and he still tried. This guy didn't seem like a strung-out loser with no concern for life, he presented himself as a sane, professional, health-conscious personal trainer. I'm inclined to blindly guess that he must be HIV+, and therefore feel he has nothing to lose by an occasional bareback transgression. But, what kind of human being would knowingly expose someone else to HIV after being specifically asked to play safe? Or, is it possible that he is HIV- and still engages in this kind of dangerous sexual behavior? Do sane, sober, intelligent people actually believe that they can have bareback sex and stay HIV negative?

 

This experience also makes me think about my attitude about sex with openly HIV positive men. Rationally, I know that I should assume that every person I ever have sex with is HIV+. I get that. However, as much as I respect people who are open about it, it is still a deal-killer for me. I believe, safe sex requires a commitment from both partners. I want the other guy to believe that his life depends on that condom, just as much as I do. In that moment that feels oh-so-good, I want to know that I'm not the only one with a life-and-death concern about safety. If I'm having sex with someone who is HIV+, I've got a lot more to lose if that condom breaks, or if the action moves along a bit faster than expected and we don't quite get around to putting the condom on.

[KMEM]

Some don't believe that BB is life threatening. Even if that happens to be true for a particular individual I cannot believe that taking expensive drugs the rest of one's life is "fun".

 

Best regards,

KMEM

[Diverdan]

Corndog... congratulations, you may have just saved yourself a potential life of misery. In this day and age, there is no substitute to playing safe. I have lost too many friends to the disease, and have many more who are going to be on meds for the rest of their life and very few of them are happy with their lot. Accidents happen, condoms break, etc., but it amazes me how many young men engage in bareback sex and denying that something very bad can and will happen eventually. It is like playing rusian roulette. Stick to your guns. However, if you really like the guy, you can certainly book him for a massage again and once again go over the ground rules !~!

Thanks for sharing this very personal experience. Hopefully others will benefit from your sharing.

[jawjateck]

It was not an anomaly. He tries that with clients and hook-ups all the time. To wrap or not to wrap is a mindset. For me, it is non-negotiable; I don't care how hot the guy is or how much he insists he's "clean", my mindset is locked in and will not be persuaded otherwise. I had an escort try to bareback with me. I always make it clear upfront that I will use safer practices if anal activity occurs. This escort was straddling me, rocking and frotting back and forth, and with no lube and complete ease, he sat down on my uncovered cock. I reacted immediately, stopped him, ended the appointment, and never scheduled him again. His action violated my conscience and mindset such that it was not hot at all to me. It was selfish and dangerous.

 

If you schedule him again, he probably won't hear you when you talk about safety. Many of these guys just hear "blah blah blah blah". He may conclude that's what you say with your lips, but you really want some of his rough sex served up bare. I suggest you move on to someone who cares about your future well-being.

[seeker630]

As he left, he seemed to be sincere when he said "sorry about that mishap," referring to the professional lapse that most of us would call "hot sex." I closed the door and pondered what had just transpired. Hot. Weird. Scary. My mind still occasionally wanders back to that event, trying to process it, and trying to decide whether I should hire him again. Was this, as he represented, an anomaly? He acted as if he never does anything like this. Would it happen again? Would he see me, be embarrassed, and refuse the massage?

 

But mostly, I feel confused about the potential barebacking. "What was he thinking?" I ask myself. I made my safe sex requirement clear, and he still tried. This guy didn't seem like a strung-out loser with no concern for life, he presented himself as a sane, professional, health-conscious personal trainer. I'm inclined to blindly guess that he must be HIV+, and therefore feel he has nothing to lose by an occasional bareback transgression. But, what kind of human being would knowingly expose someone else to HIV after being specifically asked to play safe? Or, is it possible that he is HIV- and still engages in this kind of dangerous sexual behavior? Do sane, sober, intelligent people actually believe that they can have bareback sex and stay HIV negative?

 

I probably would have concluded that he's HIV-negative or thinks he is, and therefore thought topping you was fairly safe (since the top is usually at less risk.)

 

But regardless of what he was thinking it was stupid and irresponsible.

[jimboivyo]

goodpost. you made good points and asked questions I ask too

 

What I agree with most are sex workers who are open about their HIV status. when its your job, it's also your responsability to let people make that decision for themselves. condoms do indeed break, slip. it's a shameful thing that there are escorts out there who just odn't let folks know ahead of time

[bigvalboy]

Corndog... congratulations, you may have just saved yourself a potential life of misery. In this day and age, there is no substitute to playing safe. I have lost too many friends to the disease, and have many more who are going to be on meds for the rest of their life and very few of them are happy with their lot. Accidents happen, condoms break, etc., but it amazes me how many young men engage in bareback sex and denying that something very bad can and will happen eventually. It is like playing rusian roulette. Stick to your guns. However, if you really like the guy, you can certainly book him for a massage again and once again go over the ground rules !~!

Thanks for sharing this very personal experience. Hopefully others will benefit from your sharing.

 

I totally agree, and I too see countless young people denying that HIV is even a problem anymore. Moreover, I have friends who have HIV and despite the meds, they are more susceptible to infection and a multitude of other diseases the someone without HIV would be able to fight off.

[doitb4ugo]

First, I would like to thank you, Corndog, for starting this thread. My story is very similar to yours with reslults that couldn;t be different. When the massage guy started to bareback me with a quick insistence that it was safe because he wouldn't cum inside me, I beleived him and did not have the emotional strength to say no....instead I melted and let him do waht he wanted (what I wanted)....He continued to do this to me everytime we met for a massage..Because he was the first man I ever had any sexual contact with, I had such a crush on him that he could have told me how unsafe it was and I still would have let him...

 

I am now HIV+ and am unaware of ever having unsafe sex with any other man prior to my diagnosis. I don;t beleive that he knew e was poz and only bhaved the way he did because he enjoyed it and thought it was harmless. Thus we are both victims here...

[corndog]

...since the top is usually at less risk...

 

I appreciate all the responses so far, and hope this conversation continues, but I feel it is necessary to interject that, contrary to an often-believed myth, the top is also at risk of contracting HIV. The risk may be somewhat lower, but it is still significant.

 

... and we now return to our regularly scheduled programming ...

[rvwnsd]

I probably would have concluded that he's HIV-negative or thinks he is, and therefore thought topping you was fairly safe (since the top is usually at less risk.)

 

But regardless of what he was thinking it was stupid and irresponsible.

 

You took the words right out of my keyboard! I would guess that if he was knowingly HIV + he would not have behaved like this. Believe it or not, people who are HIV+ do not have a secret agenda to seroconvert all of the people who are HIV-. I would surmise that if he believes himself to be HIV -, he might think it is "safe" to bareback, as he is the top. Clearly, that is not factual. In my experience, HIV+ playmates have been very careful when they learn that I am HIV -.

 

Corndog, if you don't mind I would like to offer a few words of advice. If this comes up in the future, forgo "...clearly and strongly saying 'not without a condom!' " Instead, 1) maneuver away from his cock; 2) politely inform him that you do not get fucked without a condom; and 3) keep your asshole away from his cock for the rest of the session. I would even tack on 2a) inform him that you do not wish to get fucked at all, given you stated you were neither mentally or physically prepared to bottom for him. This is not to say you were in any way at fault or should not stand your ground. It is to say that we don't always have to be forceful in order to get what we want or need. Just a thought.

[corndog]

rvwnsd,

 

Thanks for your advice. To clarify, when I said, "by clearly and strongly saying 'not without a condom!'," I perhaps implied that it was said angrily or rudely... not so. I said it clearly and politely. So, my actions were pretty close to what you've advised. It wasn't until after he failed to comply with my request that I implemented step 3, (keeping my asshole away from his cock), partly because I was really enjoying "pseudo-fucking," but like most good sex, that requires a level of trust that wasn't there.

 

I didn't mean to suggest that HIV+ people have a secret agenda. I think that the main reason I posted this thread was to try to understand "what was he thinking?" After reading everyone's thoughts, and introspecting a little more, I'm inclined to chalk it up to unfortunate ignorance: I think that he thought that his risk was minimal since he was the top. Sad.

[Steven_Draker]

The fact that he did not respect your request to keep his bare dick away from your ass, would have warranted interrupting the session, getting dressed and leaving the scene.

 

Independently whether he's negative, positive or carrying any other STDs

[Nvr2Thick]

I would guess that if he was knowingly HIV + he would not have behaved like this. Believe it or not, people who are HIV+ do not have a secret agenda to seroconvert all of the people who are HIV-. I would surmise that if he believes himself to be HIV -, he might think it is "safe" to bareback, as he is the top. Clearly, that is not factual. In my experience, HIV+ playmates have been very careful when they learn that I am HIV -.

 

Guys who are HIV+ and know it can't be generalized. I know of one top escort who knows his HIV+ status, advertises as negative, and has a rep for encouraging BB with his clients and hookups. I don't know whether the attitude is a conscious desire to seroconvert negative guys. To me it seems more like there are guys out there who don't care, and want to leave all the accountability for risk with their partners. The late Austin Black was a great example. When I met him years ago we had a great session. When we talked on the phone I asked about safe sex and he said "always". He went into me with a condom (I remember how hot it looked watching him roll it down that big cock), but it disappeared sometime during the session. He seemed very pleased with his orgasm inside me and made no effort to hide the fact that there was no condom when he pulled out. I later learned that he was knowingly poz, struggled with HIV for years, and his status was pretty well known in the LA/WEHO community.

 

It takes all kinds. Just as there are HIV- guys who fool around BB and play games with risk, there are HIV+ who play safe, play safe with full disclosure, and guys who will happily share their bug if you don't put some effort into protecting yourself.

[rvwnsd]

Guys who are HIV+ and know it can't be generalized...

 

I agree. And we can't generalize that all guys who are HIV+ behave the way your escort did nor can we generalize that all people who want to have bareback sex are HIV+. Your escort behaved reprehensibly. The reprehensible part is that he removed the condom without your permission while fucking you and came inside of your ass. That action would be equally reprehensible if he did it after you both submitted to an early HIV test, had both been cloistered together and completely celibate while waiting for the results (thereby knowing first-hand that after the test had been administered no potential exposure had occurred), both tested negative, and followed up with a rapid HIV test just to make sure and tested negative again.

 

One last point: Condoms do not just disappear. They are either removed or fall off. In years of being sexually active not once has one fallen off a guy who was fucking me. Part of my risk mitigation strategy is remaining cognizant of whether the condom remains on the guy who is fucking me. I did have a situation where a sex partner (who stated he was HIV- and had been recently tested) ended up on the floor after I noticed the lack of a condom when he attempted to re-enter me after pulling out and wouldn't stop when I asked him to. Stop, drop, and roll isn't just a tactic for extinguishing a clothing fire.

[corndog]

I appreciate all the contributions to this discussion.

 

I think we're all in agreement that there is a wide spectrum of people out there, ranging from honest to ignorant to deceitful to perhaps even just plain evil. I think that most of us would agree that safer sex begins with negotiation, but it's a little troubling to me that an agreement to use condoms is just the beginning. In the heat of the moment, unfortunately, it requires continued vigilance.

 

Sharing this experience, and the conversation that's ensued has helped me realize what I challenging situation I was in. Requesting safe sex is easy, but demanding it -- in the heat of the moment -- is really a challenge. The temptation to give in to the moment, "just this once," was intense, and after processing all this, I feel an even stronger resolve to protect myself in the future.

[tyro]

Thank you for starting this thread. I have posted here before about an escort who barebacked me when we were in doggy without asking, warning, anything. Here's what SLAYS me. People PM me to ask who he is. Usually, I tell them. (Frankly, I think I'm going to stop sharing that info because of this next bit...) Then these same folks HIRE HIM ANYWAY. Granted, I know we've all had different situations with different people, but...really?

T

[rvwnsd]

Thank you for starting this thread. I have posted here before about an escort who barebacked me when we were in doggy without asking, warning, anything. Here's what SLAYS me. People PM me to ask who he is. Usually, I tell them. (Frankly, I think I'm going to stop sharing that info because of this next bit...) Then these same folks HIRE HIM ANYWAY. Granted, I know we've all had different situations with different people, but...really?

T

 

Although I would not classify that as being unbelievable, I would classify it as appalling.

 

Tyro and Nvr2Thick, your stories have caused me to consider this question: If two people consent to have protected anal sex with each other (or, for that matter, oral sex in which the suckee agrees to pull himself out of the sucker's mouth prior to ejaculating) and then the "giving" party engages in unprotected sex (or forces himself to remain in the sucker's mouth while ejaculating) without the approval of the "receiving" party, is the sex then defined as non-consensual?

[tyro]

I don't know how lawyers would handle this scenario, but what happened would certainly be something different from what was consented to originally.

T

[rvwnsd]

I don't know how lawyers would handle this scenario, but what happened would certainly be something different from what was consented to originally.

T

 

This sounds like a potential story line for "Law and Order: SVU."

[Nvr2Thick]

I agree. And we can't generalize that all guys who are HIV+ behave the way your escort did nor can we generalize that all people who want to have bareback sex are HIV+.

 

As I said, "It takes all kinds. Just as there are HIV- guys who fool around BB and play games with risk, there are HIV+ who play safe, play safe with full disclosure, and guys who will happily share their bug if you don't put some effort into protecting yourself."

 

 

One last point: Condoms do not just disappear. They are either removed or fall off. In years of being sexually active not once has one fallen off a guy who was fucking me.

 

We all know this. My point was that he knew exactly what he was doing. I didn't state it outright because I thought it's obvious that he must have pulled it off. His dick was way too big and thick for a condom to slip off. He put on a great show and a great fuck for me, but he was also out to please himself. I'll never forget how he looked rolling that rubber on his dick, how pleased he looked when he was cumming, and even how hot his heavy dangling wet naked dick looked when he pulled out. I beat off and came big to the sight of it, and didn't even feel bad about the whole experience for weeks. Unfortunately or not, I'm sexually motivated by my top's pleasure. If a good top uses me for his enjoyment at my expense it doesn't matter whether it wears me out or gets way too rough as long as he feels good. That fuck had been the highlight of that trip to LA because he seemed to get lost in the fuck. He stopped trying to escort me and seemed hell bent on getting off. At the time I suppose even the fact that he finished off raw gave me a charge -- he wanted something from me and found a way to get it and and serve his own needs. My own regret at his selfishness came much later, when I had time to reflect on more than just the sheer enjoyment.

 

That's the dangerous part of the way I'm wired sexually. Tops who think they're pleasing me are boring. Tops who really want to get off for their own pleasure make me hot and a bit crazy. I learned some things from that experience. To be quite honest though, I struggle with the discipline to refuse a hot, hung top if he starts to behave like he's turned on and like he'd get even hotter if I did something more for him. If the right man tries to sweet talk his way up my ass raw I really have to put some effort into maintaining the presence of mind to say No. And I'm not proud to say I haven't always said no.

 

Tyro and Nvr2Thick, your stories have caused me to consider this question: If two people consent to have protected anal sex with each other (or, for that matter, oral sex in which the suckee agrees to pull himself out of the sucker's mouth prior to ejaculating) and then the "giving" party engages in unprotected sex (or forces himself to remain in the sucker's mouth while ejaculating) without the approval of the "receiving" party, is the sex then defined as non-consensual?

 

I don't think it becomes non-consensual. Sex is often a wild ride. I rarely maintain enough control to do as you profess to do -- to be always aware of whether a top keeps his condom on. I am, however, responsible for doing so. Depending on the position and the intensity of the action there can be many opportunities for a top to pull it off and go in bare. Depending on how the sex acts escalate you're consenting to surrendering control and higher degrees of trust. Similarly, consensual sex is still consensual if your partner doesn't bother to tell you that he knows he has syphilis. When you get into intimate sexual acts such as intense anal sex you're personally responsible for the fact that you've consented to higher levels of trust and risk, whether you should have trusted the man or not.

[+ azdr0710]

thanks, Nvr2Thick, for your excellent comments and thoughts in this thread...all should read them

[doitb4ugo]

thanks, Nvr2Thick, for your excellent comments and thoughts in this thread...all should read them

 

I agee100%. I am often in the same position of letting my lust cloud or ignoremy better judgement. I also get real satisfaction from pleasing my partner. I know what is the right thing to and I also know that because I am POZ I have an even greater responsibility to do it the safe way.(I thought that was a grocery store..). For me, sex is not some clinical activity..

 

I have a particular problem when the guy I am with wants to top....I have seldom been able to keep it hard when I stop to put on a condom....occasionally the disappointment from my partner results in unsafe sex....My brain says "No" but....

[rvwnsd]

...My point was that he knew exactly what he was doing. I didn't state it outright because I thought it's obvious that he must have pulled it off...

 

It is obvious that he pulled the condom off. When I see euphamisms (disappearing condoms, for example) I see a lack of ownership. It is the same thing I think when I hear that 200 people at a company will lose their jobs. That isn't true. The jobs aren't sitting at the lost and found desk waiting for their owners to claim them. The managers at that company fired 200 people. I think when we sugarcoat the truth we don't learn from it.

 

To be clear, regardless the words you used to describe the situation, he was wrong for removing the condom.

[Nvr2Thick]

It is obvious that he pulled the condom off. When I see euphamisms (disappearing condoms, for example) I see a lack of ownership. It is the same thing I think when I hear that 200 people at a company will lose their jobs. That isn't true. The jobs aren't sitting at the lost and found desk waiting for their owners to claim them. The managers at that company fired 200 people. I think when we sugarcoat the truth we don't learn from it.

 

To be clear, regardless the words you used to describe the situation, he was wrong for removing the condom.

 

I thought I made it pretty darn clear through the rest of the account that he chose to cum up my ass. His ownership and mine are clear through both posts of the situation. The words I used to describe the situation were a paragraph, not the sentence out of context. I was using the example as a rebuttal to your generalization about HIV+ guys being more careful -- telling the tale of someone who deliberately was not.

 

I thought your point about knowing whether the top is wearing protection at all times, and your question about when consensual sex might not be consensual are interesting. It's funny, in considering your question I've realized that I take a very liberal view of "no means no" when it comes to women and rape, but I feel that the moment I agree to play around with a guy I've consented to whatever comes of that decision -- whether I surrender control, I lose control due to force, or I am intentionally deceived.

[Phil_musc]

Hmmm - interesting analogy there: for women "no means no," but with a gay guy no means no maybe. Is this how we justify that we were so caught up in the moment that we just couldn't keep our wits about us? Hmm - but those bad straight guys, well they were just animals and couldn't be dissuaded from going ahead even when the partner had said no. I say this without sarcasm or judgment - just an observation that I'm processing through right now.