Keeping the closet door locked .

Flower · February 24, 2003

>i was yanked out the closet at the age of 17......

>i am NOT ashamed of who or what i am,and i will never hide the FACT

>that i am gay just to keep a "friend"

Well said....nor should you ever be ashamed of being gay. I only wish I had your attitude many years ago, or that I was "yanked' out of the closet. at 17. "Yanked" sorta suggestes it wasn't voluntary and I bet there is an interesting story there, but not my place to ask }(

Anyway, I have finally reached the point I am proud of who I am and thouroughly enjoy being out and about with my gay friends -- much more so that being around my str8 friends. :+

Flower · February 24, 2003

>i was yanked out the closet at the age of 17......

>i am NOT ashamed of who or what i am,and i will never hide the FACT

>that i am gay just to keep a "friend"

Well said....nor should you ever be ashamed of being gay. I only wish I had your attitude many years ago, or that I was "yanked' out of the closet. at 17. "Yanked" sorta suggestes it wasn't voluntary and I bet there is an interesting story there, but not my place to ask }(

Anyway, I have finally reached the point I am proud of who I am and thouroughly enjoy being out and about with my gay friends -- much more so that being around my str8 friends. :+

Rick Munroe · February 24, 2003

>The answer is obvious from what you have written--you remain

>silent, and at most smile when they in fact wear their

>sexuality on their sleeve. I'm sorry, but contrary to what you

>say, your real being appears stiffled by your str8 friends and

>your desire to fit in.

Another good point (as usual) from Flower. Too bad it can't be green. :*

Rick Munroe · February 24, 2003

>The answer is obvious from what you have written--you remain

>silent, and at most smile when they in fact wear their

>sexuality on their sleeve. I'm sorry, but contrary to what you

>say, your real being appears stiffled by your str8 friends and

>your desire to fit in.

Another good point (as usual) from Flower. Too bad it can't be green. :*

Rick Munroe · February 24, 2003

>He's not

>shoving it down people's throats. I stand by my contention

>that the behavior of many gays at these parades is nothing to

>cheer about or admire. I firmly believe they do more harm

>than good.

And you don't think blatant displays of heterosexuality aren't crammed down our throats, in the media & in real life, every single day of our lives? It hasn't hurt their cause.

Rick Munroe · February 24, 2003

>He's not

>shoving it down people's throats. I stand by my contention

>that the behavior of many gays at these parades is nothing to

>cheer about or admire. I firmly believe they do more harm

>than good.

And you don't think blatant displays of heterosexuality aren't crammed down our throats, in the media & in real life, every single day of our lives? It hasn't hurt their cause.

February 24, 2003

> If people ask me if I'm 'gay', I say no, I'm 'Glutes'.

> What I do in bed friends and aquaintances generally don't

>care, and don't want to hear about it either. This sort of

>goes along with what Bill O'Reilly expresses on his show, and

>I believe him. (Oh boy, I'm gonna get into shit for this)

Well, they may not be interested in the particular position you take in bed, but your friends should care about how your love life is going. It's a matter of casual, everyday conversation. It would be hard to believe that if someone is really your friend, that they don't care about your personal life, and vice-a-versa. To merely avoid the topic would have to be quite awkward, actually...

February 24, 2003

> If people ask me if I'm 'gay', I say no, I'm 'Glutes'.

> What I do in bed friends and aquaintances generally don't

>care, and don't want to hear about it either. This sort of

>goes along with what Bill O'Reilly expresses on his show, and

>I believe him. (Oh boy, I'm gonna get into shit for this)

Well, they may not be interested in the particular position you take in bed, but your friends should care about how your love life is going. It's a matter of casual, everyday conversation. It would be hard to believe that if someone is really your friend, that they don't care about your personal life, and vice-a-versa. To merely avoid the topic would have to be quite awkward, actually...

woodlawn · February 24, 2003

>Of course you don’t want to march – neither do I. The

>difference is that I don’t resent those who do.

I'm sure you're not ignorant of the fact that many gay men feel as I do about these demonstrations. Trying to make us feel guilty about that is pointless, so you may as well give it up.

>It’s like you want to prove a negative and that’s always very

>difficult to do. You don’t want the flamboyant elements out

>their parading around representing you. As if their absence

>will somehow demonstrate to the straight world that there is a

>segment of the gay population who is almost just like them.

>

>That just doesn’t make sense.

The way you put it, it sure doesn't. I don't claim their absence would do anything, but I can see the impression that is created as a result of their practice of appropriating the term "gay pride" for their demonstrations. The impression given is that they represent all gay men. But they don't.

>I’m trying to point out that I

>don’t think it is right for people who feel that way to resent

>or denigrate others who don’t feel the need to fit into

>straight society.

What do you say to the several posters in this thread who clearly resent and denigrate those who do want to fit into straight society? Like Rick Munroe, for example? That okay with you?

>Of course I understand that, but I think it’s a cop out.

>Being gay is still very, very far from JUST being about

>sexuality.

Please speak for yourself. I fail to see what a person's private sexual conduct has to do with his ability to do his job, his ability to serve his country, his ability to be a parent, or his ability to commit to a relationship with another person. The assumption that his private conduct has absolutely NOTHING to do with these other things is the whole basis for opposing anti-gay discrimination, in case you weren't aware of that. It doesn't make sense to treat people differently if the differences between them are very minor and are confined to their private lives. But if you take the position that the differences are not minor and not private, discrimination no longer seems so unreasonable. That's the problem.

>I don’t know where you get the impression that they claim to

>speak for anyone other than themselves.

From the fact that they tell everyone their demonstrations represent "gay pride," where else?

woodlawn · February 24, 2003

>Of course you don’t want to march – neither do I. The

>difference is that I don’t resent those who do.

I'm sure you're not ignorant of the fact that many gay men feel as I do about these demonstrations. Trying to make us feel guilty about that is pointless, so you may as well give it up.

>It’s like you want to prove a negative and that’s always very

>difficult to do. You don’t want the flamboyant elements out

>their parading around representing you. As if their absence

>will somehow demonstrate to the straight world that there is a

>segment of the gay population who is almost just like them.

>

>That just doesn’t make sense.

The way you put it, it sure doesn't. I don't claim their absence would do anything, but I can see the impression that is created as a result of their practice of appropriating the term "gay pride" for their demonstrations. The impression given is that they represent all gay men. But they don't.

>I’m trying to point out that I

>don’t think it is right for people who feel that way to resent

>or denigrate others who don’t feel the need to fit into

>straight society.

What do you say to the several posters in this thread who clearly resent and denigrate those who do want to fit into straight society? Like Rick Munroe, for example? That okay with you?

>Of course I understand that, but I think it’s a cop out.

>Being gay is still very, very far from JUST being about

>sexuality.

Please speak for yourself. I fail to see what a person's private sexual conduct has to do with his ability to do his job, his ability to serve his country, his ability to be a parent, or his ability to commit to a relationship with another person. The assumption that his private conduct has absolutely NOTHING to do with these other things is the whole basis for opposing anti-gay discrimination, in case you weren't aware of that. It doesn't make sense to treat people differently if the differences between them are very minor and are confined to their private lives. But if you take the position that the differences are not minor and not private, discrimination no longer seems so unreasonable. That's the problem.

>I don’t know where you get the impression that they claim to

>speak for anyone other than themselves.

From the fact that they tell everyone their demonstrations represent "gay pride," where else?

woodlawn · February 24, 2003

>Why don't you inform them otherwise, since you know their

>impressions are false?

And what exactly would you like me to tell them? Where can I find data about the numbers of gay men in America who live private, unremarkable lives?

woodlawn · February 24, 2003

>Why don't you inform them otherwise, since you know their

>impressions are false?

And what exactly would you like me to tell them? Where can I find data about the numbers of gay men in America who live private, unremarkable lives?

woodlawn · February 24, 2003

>It's interesting how those who live the stereotypes demand

>that others who don't are either hiding and self loathing or

>are forgetting where they came from. It's ridiculous!

I agree, except that I don't think 'ridiculous' is a strong enough word.

>Absolutely!! I agree 100% with this statement.

>Unfortunately, it doesn't apply here. The majority of

>straight people hold the (incorrect) assumption that being gay

>is just about perverted behavior. And the actions of many gay

>men at these parades don't CHALLENGE these assumptions, they

>REINFORCE them! And that's the problem.

Very well said. To those who denigrate gay men who want to fit into straight society I ask, what is your alternative? Straight society is the society we all live in, folks. Anyone who thinks he doesn't need to deal with that is living in a fantasy world.

woodlawn · February 24, 2003

>It's interesting how those who live the stereotypes demand

>that others who don't are either hiding and self loathing or

>are forgetting where they came from. It's ridiculous!

I agree, except that I don't think 'ridiculous' is a strong enough word.

>Absolutely!! I agree 100% with this statement.

>Unfortunately, it doesn't apply here. The majority of

>straight people hold the (incorrect) assumption that being gay

>is just about perverted behavior. And the actions of many gay

>men at these parades don't CHALLENGE these assumptions, they

>REINFORCE them! And that's the problem.

Very well said. To those who denigrate gay men who want to fit into straight society I ask, what is your alternative? Straight society is the society we all live in, folks. Anyone who thinks he doesn't need to deal with that is living in a fantasy world.

Boston Guy · February 24, 2003

I just read this whole thread for the first time and it really makes me feel kind of sad.

I'm in my late 40s and I've been out for more than 20 years. Before that, I dated women, almost got married (twice!), etc., etc. It's a typical story for someone my age. When I was growing up in a conservative small town, the word "gay" meant "happy" and "queers" were definitely to be looked down upon. Growing up at that time meant being young and involved with all of the movements that made the late 60s so exciting -- the peace rallies, the environmental movement, etc. I remember when the black rights movement first started and trying to convince my parents to change their whole way of looking at "colored" people -- which was the polite way to describe black people in the 60s. Then the women's movement started and I remember my father thinking the whole world was turning upside down and he couldn't understand what was wrong with the way things had always been. Of course, he wasn't black and he wasn't a woman...

But, somehow, I was either completely unaware of the Stonewall riots and the resulting emerging gay rights movement or so peripherally aware of them that they didn't really stick with me. So the word "gay" continued to be "happy" to me for a long time.

I wasn't really aware that I might be "homosexual" or "queer" until after college and the thought was distressing, to say the least. Even while I was dating women, I was becoming more and more aware that I was attracted to men. Not only that, the depth of attraction that I could feel for some men was far stronger than the depth of attraction I felt for women. Eventually I decided that I had to figure out if I was gay or not. At that time, I felt more alone than at any other time in my life. I felt like I was the only gay person in the world and I was certainly ashamed of how I felt. And there was nothing like the Internet to turn to.

But I decided that I had to figure out if I was gay so I started going to gay clubs and meeting gay people and it took only a few weeks to realize that not only was I gay, that I also wasn't the only person and that there were many gay people out there who were interesting and fun and smart and involved in all kinds of activities, people I liked and many of whom quickly became friends. I felt liberated in ways that I had not expected. I also grew to like myself a lot more than I had before and I came quickly to believe that being gay was normal for me and I didn't care if it wasn't normal for someone else or someone else didn't like it.

Within a year, I had come out to all of the important people in my life: family and close friends. I lost one long-standing friend but gained many new friends in the process. My family didn't understand it but loved me and accepted me and my decisions. It has never come between us. With my friends, sharing with them an important truth about myself has strengthened our friendships and allowed me to combine my gay and straight friends at any time without needing to care or worry about who knows what. Some of my good gay friends have become good friends with some of my original good straight friends and my family has met and cared for my boyfriends.

Having said all of that, I've been happy to see what's happening with young people today. It seems more and more common for people to come out at 15 or 16 or 17 or 18 and for young gay people to be far more accepted by their peers than would have been the case for me in high school. So it's been comforting to feel that society is moving forward toward eventual acceptance of gay people as a normal part of society -- where being gay can be a sort of non-event.

However, some of the opinions expressed above still seem to represent the kinds of fear that I felt 20 years ago. Perhaps it's because the people writing are my age or older and our opinions and feelings are often shaped by our youth. But I cannot imagine going through life keeping an important, salient fact about myself from my family or close friends. Doing so would seem to imply that those important people in my life don't need to know the truth about who I really am and they are not strong enough or mature enough to handle the fact that I am gay.

Family and friends should be supportive of each other, in good times and in bad. But we can only be supportive and supported if we're honest with the important people in our lives. My brothers and sisters don't all lead their lives exactly as I would like them to but they are my brothers and sisters and I support them and I always will. But if I found out that one of them had been in a very important relationship with another person and had been afraid to tell me about that relationship, I'd be seriously pissed and would be very vocal about it with them. If they can't trust me, their brother, with the truth about what is going on in their lives, then who the hell can they trust? Living a life shouldn't involve going to one's grave having kept one's personal life secret from all of the people in one's life.

I said at the top that reading this thread makes me feel sad and it does on a number of different levels. It's pretty clear that some of the contributors here still see being gay as being inferior to being straight, as something that has to be apologized for. There's a reference to "throwing it in people's faces". My God! Haven't we gotten past those old attitudes? Straight people don't feel like they're shoving their sexuality in our faces when they make out in public. Why, in America, should the rules be different?

The Constitution, thankfully, is a lot about protecting the rights of the minority. Although I dislike the current US Supreme Court, even these members understand that they are there to keep the majority from trampling on the rights of minorities. The majority doesn't always rule in our society and we are much stronger for that.

But legality and culture are different. Black rights came about because people stood up and said "We're equal and we're not going to accept second-class treatment anymore." Ditto with the women's rights movement. And the gains that have come about in gay rights have also occurred only because people stood up and shouted and got into people's faces and said, essentially, "I don't care if you like this or not, but I'm as good as you are and I insist on my rights."

The people here may or may not find gay pride parades comfortable; they may or may not like drag queens or the pictures on the front pages of the newspapers; they may consider themselves "normal" and having nothing in common with "those people". But that's truly an ignorant point of view and it astonishes me to see posters who are clearly not stupid and not ignorant take that point of view.

The history of gay rights is not so long that it should be forgotten already, especially by gay people. The kinds of acceptance we do enjoy, the movement in society's attitudes, the legal rights we have gained -- all of these things have come about because gay people have done two things: (1) we have collectively gotten in society's face and demanded equal rights; and (2) we have come out by the millions, quiety or loudly, and said to the people in our lives "I'm still me, I'm no different than I was before and I want you to know that I'm happy and healthy and I want you to be happy for me."

As more and more people did this, more and more Americans started to put a face on gay people. Instead of thinking gay men were those "queers" who were hanging around dirty bookstores, we became their friends and sons and daughters and sisters and brothers and fathers and mothers. And all of a sudden, straight people started standing up and joining us and saying that equal rights was a good thing.

I'm not advocating that anyone do anything. But I do think it's sad if someone doesn't respect themselves enough to come out to their friends and family. And, no, you cannot convince me that there are other good reasons not to tell your close friends and family that you are gay. At some level, you must believe that you aren't as good as they are.

Sure, people can say I'm practicing pop psychology. I don't care. If someone is gay and afraid to tell their brother or sister, or their best friends, then they don't respect themselves, at some deep and important level. Why else would someone want to have a relationship with someone that is so unequal -- they can tell you all about what's going on in their lives and all about their concerns and problems but you cannot share with them? Please... it's ok, I guess, if you don't respect yourself enough (although it really isn't...). But don't compound the offense by trying to justify it by making all kinds of weak excuses. At least be strong enough to admit that you don't think you're as good as they are. If you did, you'd be willing to stand up and say "You don't like me? Fine. Let me know if you change your mind." and then go associate with people who do like you.

If this sounds awfully strong, sorry, but we're talking about fundamental honesty here, honesty in interpersonal relationships between gay people and the closest people in their lives. When we're afraid to share our lives openly and honestly with those who are closest to us, we perpetuate all of the negative stereotypes in the minds of our friends and in our own minds -- which is the worst and saddest thing of all.

And for those who say "I'm only gay for sex", please, let's be more honest about that, too. Do you only want to have gay sex for sex? Do you never, ever want to be in love? If yes, I truly feel sorry for you, for sharing love with another person is so far beyond just having sex that you can't really even compare them in the same sentence. But if you do want love, then are you going to have sex with men and love with women? How honest is that? Or will you fall in love with some lucky man and then not tell those who are closest to you about your relationship, your love, your happiness? This is just so fundamentally dishonest and unfair that it appalls me.

It's dishonest on the face of it. And it's unfair, first and foremost to you. You're allowing yourself to continue thinking that your feelings are somehow wrong or not as good as or not as legitimate as those of stright people. You're allowing yourself to live a life that involves hiding at some level, perhaps many levels. That's ok if you're 17 but not ok as an adult. And hiding a relationship is fundamentally unfair to your lover and it's fundamentally unfair to your friends and family. You're not even giving them a chance to demonstrate to you that they are strong enough and wise enough and that they care for you enough to accept you for the person you truly are.

I've come out to so many people over the last 20 years that I couldn't begin to count them. And I lost just one friend in the whole process -- and I think it was his loss.

Being in the closet today is just sad. I cannot think of any other word that expresses my feeling. I feel sad for those of you who feel you must stay in the closet, for you are shortchanging yourself and those around you. I hope you decide someday to let a little sunshine into your life.

BG

Boston Guy · February 24, 2003