Law School Not Such A Good Deal Anymore

[+ Lucky]

Statistics show that members of the 2011 law school graduating classes have barely a 50-50 chance of landing a job as a lawyer within 9 months of graduation. This very challenging and expensive education was once thought to be the ticket to a solid future, but both the economy and the changes in the way law is practiced have led to reduced chances for new grads. Law firms have shown no reluctance to outsource some of the tedious work to India and other countries.

 

Granted, many students go to law school without plans to actually practice law. I know I did. I hated law school, and wanted so badly to quit while there. Yet a wise lawyer took me aside and asked me what good half a law degree was. So I finished and learned to like practicing law and going to court. It helped me develop some of those skills that others find so charming in me, like how to cross-examine, or how to find the weak point in an argument and pull it right out from under the other person. I developed an ability to detect a discrepancy without batting an eye, and then lead the other person down the road to his own courtroom demise. Ah, skills so easily transferred into social situations!

 

One thing I learned was that school does not even attempt to teach you how to practice law. You have to learn that by yourself, once you get a job. Law school simply teaches you to think like a lawyer, and it truly is a mind set that most folks don't have.

 

A law dean told me a few years ago that law schools were more crowded than ever because students graduating college could not find jobs, so they simply kept studying. But it appears that reality has now set in, unless they can afford to go for the MBA after law school. Or maybe divinity school. Surely lawyers make good preachers, don't they?

 

One thing I knew when I graduated, I had no desire to work for one of the big firms, doing drudge work for years. So no, I never made the big bucks that reward those who follow that path. But I had a lot of fun and think I did a lot of good for people. I have not practiced in years. But I remember being told the same thing that today's students are being told: It's hard to find a job as a lawyer. My reaction was that there is always a job for a good lawyer, even if he or she has to create his own firm.

 

So, for those who want to kill all the lawyers, the economy seems to be helping kill about half of them. Isn't that enough?

[jjkrkwood]

So, for those who want to kill all the lawyers, the economy seems to be helping kill about half of them. Isn't that enough?

 

Do they know where citylaw lives ????

[citylaw1]

Law school is definitely not an avenue that I recommend anymore, unless you are able to attend without loans. The young attorneys that work under me are making around 70k in NYC; this is hardly enough to live in NYC, let alone take on loan payments.

 

Law school, much like medical school, hardly teaches you to practice law, however, as Lucky commented, your way of thinking changes. I loved law school, unlike many of my peers. The actual study of law is far more appealing to me than the legal system at work. That's why I followed the cash to corporate practice.

[citylaw1]

Do they know where citylaw lives ????

 

You may pass my condo on one of your bus trips back to Brooklyn.

[+ Travis69]

Right now I am dealing with a person who I was doing a favor for. She is a lawyer. She loves to sue people. She has taken something that could have been handled very easily in 3 days and drawn it out to 3 weeks, and counting, adversely affecting me and other innocent people around her. She doesn't care. She was taught that the law is most important. Less people like her would make the world a better place for all.

[citylaw1]

Right now I am dealing with a person who I was doing a favor for. She is a lawyer. She loves to sue people. She has taken something that could have been handled very easily in 3 days and drawn it out to 3 weeks, and counting, adversely affecting me and other innocent people around her. She doesn't care. She was taught that the law is most important. Less people like her would make the world a better place for all.

 

Any good attorney looks to settle in their favor as quickly as possible. Can you provide more facts here?

[jjkrkwood]

You may pass my condo on one of your bus trips back to Brooklyn.

 

Now, now, as much of an insult as you wanted that to be, I live in Forest Hills Gardens. (Queens) Yes a boro befitting MY status.

[citylaw1]

Now, now, as much of an insult as you wanted that to be, I live in Forest Hills Gardens. (Queens) Yes a boro befitting MY status.

 

I fly over Queens occasionally.

[+ Travis69]

Any good attorney looks to settle in their favor as quickly as possible. Can you provide more facts here?

To her all the drama of a law suit is oxygen to her body. She loves a good fight and lives for a good fight. She is left empty at the end of a fight. She may even have an orgasm with the prospect of a good fight!! It's just comical but sad at the same time. Stupidly some of us around her are too nice for our own good and give in to her needs. Can't say more as someday she may get bored and subpeona all the personal correspondence of people she knows. I would probably get sued for divulging confidential information.

[jjkrkwood]

I fly over Queens occasionally.

 

Your wings must be Extremely Tired ?

[+ Oliver]

... Law school simply teaches you to think like a lawyer ...

 

And it is a different way. Also the way it's taught - the Socratic method. I did not attend until ten years after the undergraduate degree, although no colleagues knew that. I was also always blessed with parental support in whatever I pursued. However, on the day of graduation from law school, my dear father said, "I always thought this is what you should do!" He had never said so before. He must have recognized my thinking processes, but also wanted only that I be happy in whatever I chose to do. It certainly afforded me a varied and diverse career, that provided some of the most fun working experiences.

[Lookin]

Does anybody know how many laws there are?

 

As ignorance of the law is no excuse for wrongdoing, and I could end up in the pokey for running afoul of one of them, I figure I should at least try to make some kind of a list. Counting federal, state, and local, how long would it be?

 

I'm sure it varies by locale, so please feel free to give me the total for where you live, and I'll just take an average.

 

 

http://www.computermuseum.li/Testpage/Burroughs126Key.jpg

 

 

 

Thanks in advance! http://www.maleescortreview.com/forum/public/style_emoticons/default/thumbsup.png

 

 

PS: I know there are a few thousand folks working on new ones as we speak, so I'll be sure to timestamp the numbers.

[citylaw1]

And it is a different way. Also the way it's taught - the Socratic method. I did not attend until ten years after the undergraduate degree, although no colleagues knew that. I was also always blessed with parental support in whatever I pursued. However, on the day of graduation from law school, my dear father said, "I always thought this is what you should do!" He had never said so before. He must have recognized my thinking processes, but also wanted only that I be happy in whatever I chose to do. It certainly afforded me a varied and diverse career, that provided some of the most fun working experiences.

 

The Socratic method really is a great way to learn. I think more undergrad programs should adapt this way of teaching.

[+ Lucky]

Law school is definitely not an avenue that I recommend anymore, unless you are able to attend without loans. The young attorneys that work under me are making around 70k in NYC; this is hardly enough to live in NYC, let alone take on loan payments.

 

Law school, much like medical school, hardly teaches you to practice law, however, as Lucky commented, your way of thinking changes. I loved law school, unlike many of my peers. The actual study of law is far more appealing to me than the legal system at work. That's why I followed the cash to corporate practice.

 

So what you write makes what I wrote even worse! If a young grad does find a law job, then the pay is not enough to live on? Hardly sounds fair, does it?

I am glad to see the thread take off with not too much lawyer bashing. It really can be an honorable profession, although it was years before my friends stopped telling me to quit cross-examining them every time they said something! Or remembering that what they just said wasn't what they said four years ago on the same subject...

[robberbaron4u]

An attorney-at-law is your employee, your agent, your servant; it is your place to instruct him as to wishes in "running his show", and, his part, by reason of his expertise, is to make the thing a successful production. Some years ago, my partners and I became involved in "intellectual properties"; a "competitor", if you will, threatened us with a frivolous trademark infringement action. The trademark attorney with whom I consulted wanted to "wage war" in the court system with a $30,000 retainer. I informed that all I wanted was a notice on a nicely engraved letterhead "bigger and bolder" than that of the firm representing the competitor that plainly stated my stance in the matter: "Sue me. I will see you in court". Eventually, I got that which I wanted for $250.00 and the cost of mailing; we did not hear from the competitor again.

[jawjateck]

An attorney-at-law is your employee.....

 

I agree with robber. I don't complain about lawyers, but I often admonish my friends and business associates who complain about the services of their attorneys. I usually say "if he isn't responsive to your needs, then man up, fire his ass, and retain the services of another attorney, but I don't care to hear your bitching." I occasionally need an attorney, and made the switch one time a few years ago. While I received competent services, the lawyer's firm grew, and as such, I was small potatoes for him to worry about; in reality, he got a little to big for his britches. I made a switch, hired another attorney and have been satisfied ever since.

[+ FreshFluff]

The Socratic method really is a great way to learn. I think more undergrad programs should adapt this way of teaching.

 

In my experience, it doesn't work in many cases. I remember one pretty smart kid who asked a question in class. I tried to lead him to the answer by asking a series of simple question. As I try to lead him forward, he looked at me like I was a moron and answered, "You're supposed to give me the answer. That's why I'm asking."

 

Maybe I'm just not skilled enough, but I've heard the same from others. Undergrads today, except for those at the very top, want their info spoon-fed.

[citylaw1]

So what you write makes what I wrote even worse! If a young grad does find a law job, then the pay is not enough to live on? Hardly sounds fair, does it?

I am glad to see the thread take off with not too much lawyer bashing. It really can be an honorable profession, although it was years before my friends stopped telling me to quit cross-examining them every time they said something! Or remembering that what they just said wasn't what they said four years ago on the same subject...

 

Finding a job at a liveable wage in NYC is a lot harder than most realize. You MUST graduate at the top of your class to really stand a chance. As I told my Nephew, you are better off graduating from New York Law School at the top of your class than Graduating from NYU in the middle. Yes, large reputable (profitable) firms hire more from NYU, however, they take the creme and the average student is left with a big bill and a middle salary.

 

I think Fordham Law is the best bet in NYC. Their education and alumni network is superior to most.

[+ Oliver]

... kid who asked a question in class. I tried to lead him to the answer by asking a series of simple question. As I try (sic) to lead him forward, he looked at me like I was a moron and answered, "You're supposed to give me the answer ...

 

I guess I must have had that method of teaching from an early age. My mother had been a teacher, and if I had trouble with homework (especially math), she would look through the book, reading aloud, ask a pertinent question here and there, until I figured out the answer to the problem. She never gave me the answer so that I always had to reason it out myself. Interestingly, I never went to my dad for assistance - he just did the problem. That's no help!

[rguer]

Your wings must be Extremely Tired ?

 

The broom does all the work.

[instudiocity]

...The young attorneys that work under me are making around 70k in NYC;...

That's quite a discrepancy there. Young attorneys working under citylaw1 make about $35 per hour. citylaw1 makes $400 per hour. Young escorts working under citylaw1 make $300 per hour. Therefore, skip law school and escort under citylaw1 and earn 9 times more that those lawyers under him.... interesting.

[citylaw1]

That's quite a discrepancy there. Young attorneys working under citylaw1 make about $35 per hour. citylaw1 makes $400 per hour. Young escorts working under citylaw1 make $300 per hour. Therefore, skip law school and escort under citylaw1 and earn 9 times more that those lawyers under him.... interesting.

 

I didn't start at my current salary. I'm now 42. If I remember correctly I started at around 50k.

[citylaw1]

In my experience, it doesn't work in many cases. I remember one pretty smart kid who asked a question in class. I tried to lead him to the answer by asking a series of simple question. As I try to lead him forward, he looked at me like I was a moron and answered, "You're supposed to give me the answer. That's why I'm asking."

 

Maybe I'm just not skilled enough, but I've heard the same from others. Undergrads today, except for those at the very top, want their info spoon-fed.

 

I remember taking undergrad summer school classes at SUNY Albany and being shocked at how easy the classes were; I was even more shocked at the multiple choice exams.

[+ nycman]

The broom does all the work.

 

This is my nomination for "post of the year".

 

Completely brilliant and funny....bravo!

[+ nycman]

It’s supply and demand pure and simple.

 

We have WAY too many lawyers in this country. It’s an unfortunate fact of life.

As a result, many will starve. The best fix is to come clean with undergraduates

who want to pursue a law degree. The field is beyond over saturated. That inevitably

leads to the “bottom feeding” behavior that gives lawyers such a horrible reputation.

 

Our country only has an honest need for about 10% of the lawyers that we have

currently. Until that problem is fixed, the legal “profession” will continue to suffer.

It is a noble profession that deserves better and it should be an asset to our nation

instead of the horrendous embarrassment it currently is.