Woof?

[RexAll]

If you can't tell for sure, how can you also be 99% sure at the same time? You're only sure because you're assuming that you're right without confirming it. You don't actually know for sure.

 

Ok Rick-- I think you are stretching to make your point. I'll give you that I can't know absolutely that an overwhelming number of guys that I think are straight are actually straight. But if you take the old 10% number of males being homosexual that means there are waaay more straight guys than gays. So unless for some reason the set of straight guys that I know is not a normal distribution, then probably the overwhelming majority guys I think are straight, are straight. But your right I can't know on an absolute basis. I can only go by the odds.

 

Rex

[RexAll]

OK, I'll stick my oar in.

 

I've come to believe it's a generational thing. I get to hang out with a group of young (18-22) sportsmen, and their behaviour would definitely have got them labelled 'gay' 20+ years ago.

 

I watch them fight over the mirror, check out and discuss the merits of each other's bodies and their dietary regimes, argue over the best hairdresser for highlights, give each other tips on styling products and the best fake tan, talk knowledgeably and in-depth about fashion and fashion designers, etc. etc.

 

Some of them openly admit to having had sex with other guys. One of them, an extremely impressive hunk of masculinity, wondered out loud if he was bisexual and got jeered by his teammates and told that if someone drilled a hole he'd be a treehugger too! I recall a heated discussion with them about rimming, they'd seen it in porn but never found a girl who was willing to go there. I felt in dire need of a portable respirator when almost all of them said they'd let a guy do it to them, just to get the box ticked!

 

We also have another guy whose a real pretty, pretty boy. I initially thought I'd have to be a bit protective of him when he first signed up. He moves like a dancer, curls his eyelashes (which he's forever batting at everyone, both men and women) and wears lipgloss. I protect him? What a joke! The rest of the team beg to go out with the guy. Apparently, he's a total babe-magnet, and consistently pulls two-or-more girls so he can enjoy a threesome or above. Go figure!

 

As far as I'm aware, not one of these young men self-identifies as gay. To them, that seems to mean a lifestyle choice, not whether they fool around with other blokes. Several of them admit to doing so regularly, but are also enthusiastic about eventually getting married and having kids.

 

So, for me in 2011, I've reached the conclusion that amongst the young'uns it's now impossible to guess visually or by behaviour, who's homo or hetero. As for the historic labels, IMHO they now appear to reference how you intend to live your life rather than what you get up to sexually.

 

Just my 2¢.

 

Richard

 

Rich,

 

I agree that guys are able to express behaviors nowadays that they might have suppressed in the past for fear of being called gay. But-- aren't you from England? While I can see this happening in New York, Chicago, Los Angeles-- I still think there is a lot more separation in how gay and straight guys act in the large portion of middle America. Not as much as in years past-- that's true. But middle America is still fairly conservative in their mores.

 

It's interesting in your thesis of how young guys feel that-- that they feel being gay is something you are ( a lifestyle ) as opposed to something you do. There is a gay author named Marc Acito. He wore a book called Attack of the Theater People set in the 1980's. The main protagonist is a young college student in his 20's. He knows he is gay, but is still not completely comfortable with it. He is a theatre major. And he runs with the theatre crowd. He meets a friend of a friend who is stereotypically gay. The passage goes something like this-- he describes the guy as being so gay and over the top that it makes his a-s hurt. The other thing the protagonist says is that he considers ' gay' being more of a verb-- something you do-- more than being an adjective -- as something you are. If that was a true depiction of the 1980's generation-- then your young friends' feelings that being gay is a lifestyle ( adjective) and not just what you do ( a verb) then that does show a generational shift between the 1980's generation who would now be in their 50's and today's youth in how they regard being gay.

 

But on another note-- how can I become part of your group:rolleyes:

 

 

Rex

[gp0560]

There's no way to tell someone's orientation ... (unless they're in a gay bar sucking cock in the urinal).

 

In a urinal? Ooooh! Cozy!

[Rick Munroe]

Ok Rick-- I think you are stretching to make your point.

 

LOL And you weren't stretching by saying you can't be sure while at the same time you can be 99% sure?

 

But if you take the old 10% number of males being homosexual

 

Emphasis on "old." That's a very outdated statistic. We on this board should know more than anyone that there is a big difference between the numbers of those who are gay and those who are willing to state in a public survey that they are gay. You'd really be able to look at a group of presumed straight guys and pick out the ones who are closeted?

[Rick Munroe]

So, for me in 2011, I've reached the conclusion that amongst the young'uns it's now impossible to guess visually or by behaviour, who's homo or hetero.

 

This is the point I was trying to make, but you made it much better (damn you). I think that, years ago, yes, it was much easier to guess, but in 2011, the lines have all been blurred. Some straight guys want to have perfect bodies and wear color-coordinated outfits while some gay guys strive to be out-of-shape bears. Add to this the fact that cruising is now mostly done online instead of on the street, and it's become nearly impossible to tell who's who.

[Rick Munroe]

In a urinal? Ooooh! Cozy!

 

Don't knock it 'til you've tried it once or 50 times.

[Guest Rich.]

Rex,

 

Yup, you're right, I'm in the UK (although Glutes insists I'm in San Antonio!) and I completely accept that what I've posted previously is based on a small sample of individuals from a tiny island and in no way can be considered representative of the wider world. Hey, you don't have to remind me that I'm living in a minute kingdom that has five mutually exclusive languages (let alone the regional dialects!) and where in my lifetime you could be birched (flogged) and gaoled (jailed) for just touching another guys dick!

 

It slays me to even begin to side with Munroe, but IMHO you're both right. He sees through the prism of the big city, you're observing small town America. However, I honestly believe there is the beginning of a seismic shift in sexual attitudes amongst the internet porn generation.

 

I was having a post-match drink with the team when one of them used the expression "that's so gay", which over here equates to 'lame'. He must have seen my pained expression and started to apologise. I stopped him and said that I'd appreciate knowing how the word 'gay' has come to have such a derogatory meaning. His answer was a knife through my heart. I won't try and W&P the resulting conversation but sum it up in my own analogy.

 

He, and his peers, view the term 'gay' in the same way as if I was a coffee aficionado, wandering from cafe to cafe searching for the perfect expresso. I might argue the merits of various mixes, rubbish Gaggia, import beans from obscure plantations in Jamaica and, when I have nothing better to do, loiter in Starbucks. They get it, but to them it's nerdy. OK, they normally drink a mug of tea but if they fancy a quick latte, so what? They are not going to define their lives, or allow themselves to be defined, by what is to them, an insignificant choice. (Howl!).

 

I've posted elsewhere about a charity match (I support an 'orphanage' in Zimbabwe for HIV+ kids) that I arranged between my 'straight' guys and a visiting oceanic 'gay' team. I'll admit that I was on my knees praying that our side would treat the 'gay' team with some respect. My fears turned out to be my baggage and my prejudices. To give you just one example, I was gobsmacked when my 'straight' guys came up with the suggestion to hold a nude wrestling match with the visitors, in a public pond, to raise extra funds! Oh, and yes, I have pictures, and no, I won't publish!

 

What I've found truly incredible, since the "that's so gay" comment, the guys now say "that's so straight" and consider it equally insulting!

 

From the high-kicking drag queens of the Stonewall Bar who broke a police line, to Britain's own stately homo, Quentin Crisp, who minced about London being an obvious homosexual, my hope is that my generations gift to the youth-of-today is that they won't have to decide to define their lives by their sexuality, even if some us old'uns felt we had to.

 

Fingers crossed.

 

Richard

[Rick Munroe]

It slays me to even begin to side with Munroe, but IMHO you're both right. He sees through the prism of the big city, you're observing small town America. However, I honestly believe there is the beginning of a seismic shift in sexual attitudes amongst the internet porn generation.

 

It pains me to have to say that your post was quite eloquent and touching! But I do travel a lot and don't spend all of my time in big cities. We've observed this everywhere.

[RexAll]

Rex,

 

Yup, you're right, I'm in the UK (although Glutes insists I'm in San Antonio!) and I completely accept that what I've posted previously is based on a small sample of individuals from a tiny island and in no way can be considered representative of the wider world. Hey, you don't have to remind me that I'm living in a minute kingdom that has five mutually exclusive languages (let alone the regional dialects!) and where in my lifetime you could be birched (flogged) and gaoled (jailed) for just touching another guys dick!

 

It slays me to even begin to side with Munroe, but IMHO you're both right. He sees through the prism of the big city, you're observing small town America. However, I honestly believe there is the beginning of a seismic shift in sexual attitudes amongst the internet porn generation.

 

I was having a post-match drink with the team when one of them used the expression "that's so gay", which over here equates to 'lame'. He must have seen my pained expression and started to apologise. I stopped him and said that I'd appreciate knowing how the word 'gay' has come to have such a derogatory meaning. His answer was a knife through my heart. I won't try and W&P the resulting conversation but sum it up in my own analogy.

 

He, and his peers, view the term 'gay' in the same way as if I was a coffee aficionado, wandering from cafe to cafe searching for the perfect expresso. I might argue the merits of various mixes, rubbish Gaggia, import beans from obscure plantations in Jamaica and, when I have nothing better to do, loiter in Starbucks. They get it, but to them it's nerdy. OK, they normally drink a mug of tea but if they fancy a quick latte, so what? They are not going to define their lives, or allow themselves to be defined, by what is to them, an insignificant choice. (Howl!).

 

I've posted elsewhere about a charity match (I support an 'orphanage' in Zimbabwe for HIV+ kids) that I arranged between my 'straight' guys and a visiting oceanic 'gay' team. I'll admit that I was on my knees praying that our side would treat the 'gay' team with some respect. My fears turned out to be my baggage and my prejudices. To give you just one example, I was gobsmacked when my 'straight' guys came up with the suggestion to hold a nude wrestling match with the visitors, in a public pond, to raise extra funds! Oh, and yes, I have pictures, and no, I won't publish!

 

What I've found truly incredible, since the "that's so gay" comment, the guys now say "that's so straight" and consider it equally insulting!

 

From the high-kicking drag queens of the Stonewall Bar who broke a police line, to Britain's own stately homo, Quentin Crisp, who minced about London being an obvious homosexual, my hope is that my generations gift to the youth-of-today is that they won't have to decide to define their lives by their sexuality, even if some us old'uns felt we had to.

 

Fingers crossed.

 

Richard

 

Rich that was a wonderful and insightful post. I cant really disagree with anything you said. But, and I'm willing to be proven wrong, in my mind from what I see of 'gay culture' I still see more effeminate gay guys than I do straights. Maybe it's a learned response-- maybe whatever gene(s) that makes us prefer men over women is also bundled up with genes that contribute to effeminate behavior- it's obviously not an absolute thing. As I said there are effeminate straight guys and masculine or middle of the road acting gay men. But there are certainly enough effeminate gay men around even if they are nowhere near the majority of us- that when homophobes who already want to see us as unmanly, don't have far to look.

 

Rex

[RexAll]

Rich that was a wonderful and insightful post. I cant really disagree with anything you said. But, and I'm willing to be proven wrong, in my mind from what I see of 'gay culture' I still see more proportionally more effeminate men among us than I do among straight the. Maybe it's a learned response-- maybe whatever gene(s) that makes us prefer men over women is also bundled up with genes that contribute to effeminate behavior- it's obviously not an absolute thing. As I said there are effeminate straight guys and masculine or middle of the road acting gay men. But there are certainly enough effeminate gay men around even if they are nowhere near the majority of us- that when homophobes who already want to classify us as unmanly, don't have far to look.

 

 

 

Rex

 

Rex

 

 

But I thank you all for your indulgence in either reading or contributing to this thread. I think I've had my say on the subject-- and will say no more for the nonce.

[Rick Munroe]

in my mind from what I see of 'gay culture' I still see more effeminate gay guys than I do straights.

 

That's because you are assuming that all of the masculine guys you see are straight, and that all of the fem guys you see are gay. It's all your assumptions based on stereotypes of the past.

 

Maybe it's a learned response-- maybe whatever gene(s) that makes us prefer men over women is also bundled up with genes that contribute to effeminate behavior-

 

Wow, is this Daddy's Reviews or the Family Research Council blog? That was really bad, Rex.

 

But there are certainly enough effeminate gay men around even if they are nowhere near the majority of us- that when homophobes who already want to see us as unmanly, don't have far to look.

 

They can just look at your posts in this thread.