The craigslist monster is back-bigger and badder than ever!

[Michael Wayne]

Happy Memorial Day to all. I will be brief and to the point. Craigslist personals (m4m) is becoming ADULT/EROTIC services all over again. In New York it is very noticeable and even in sleeply little New Orleans (my home base) it is becoming a problem. These ads are in CLEAR violation of craigslist terms of use. Guys are advertising EXTREMELY low rates ($65). The flagging process is supposed to stop this but it does not work. I am posting because the news media is going to get ahold of this and shut craigslist down finally and for good. Also, law enforcement does not target m4rn or rb or rm but they do target c.l. I noticed in 30 minutes of reasearch 17 ads offering to sell illegal drugs along with the sex. This site is setting back the escort industry 20 years back to the days of the street hustler. High end guys I talk to have not gotten appointments in days because of these bottom feeders. Any thoughts as to what to do about this guys. Would like to hear from both escorts and clients.........p.s. For the record: I do advertise legally on c.l. therapeutic services for the massage therapy aspect of my business. My issue is that I pay to advertise there but these personal ads are FREE. Any thought guys? http://www.rentboy.com/mikey9nola1

[seeker630]

Happy Memorial Day to all. I will be brief and to the point. Craigslist personals (m4m) is becoming ADULT/EROTIC services all over again. In New York it is very noticeable and even in sleeply little New Orleans (my home base) it is becoming a problem. These ads are in CLEAR violation of craigslist terms of use. Guys are advertising EXTREMELY low rates ($65). The flagging process is supposed to stop this but it does not work. I am posting because the news media is going to get ahold of this and shut craigslist down finally and for good. Also, law enforcement does not target m4rn or rb or rm but they do target c.l. I noticed in 30 minutes of reasearch 17 ads offering to sell illegal drugs along with the sex. This site is setting back the escort industry 20 years back to the days of the street hustler. High end guys I talk to have not gotten appointments in days because of these bottom feeders. Any thoughts as to what to do about this guys. Would like to hear from both escorts and clients.........p.s. For the record: I do advertise legally on c.l. therapeutic services for the massage therapy aspect of my business. My issue is that I pay to advertise there but these personal ads are FREE. Any thought guys? http://www.rentboy.com/mikey9nola1

 

I rarely see such ads in my area (Raleigh NC, which has a large student population) , and they almost always disappear very quckly - presumably because of flagging.

 

I have no idea what the rates are.

[JT Brooklyn]

Well you might call them "Bottom Feeders" BUT in this Economy I'm guessing some call them a Possible Good Deal?

 

The "High End" as you call them I'm sure are not losing their High End Customers..Most "Deep Pockets" don't change their Tastes due to Bargain Prices!

 

It's USUALLY a case of "Ya Gets What Ya Pays For"!

[Michael Wayne]

Hey Brooklyn Guy. Bargains yes, I am sure but my point is that these ads are in violation of c.l.'s ads policy. I was once very poor and when I began in the biz years ago I offered $60 in calls just to pay the rent and avoid homelessness. I have no problem with low rates. My concern is for the safety of these guys. C.L. is raided all the time and it is also risky to hire one of these guys as they have not been screened and not PAID for the ads. I think it is dangerous. Plus the drug aspect of it worries me. I would also think the powers that be at Rentboy and the other pay sites would be worried since it is now clear that you can advertise again for free on the world's most visible classified website with an unlimited audience in the hundreds of millions. Over a year ago under pressure the adult/erotic services division of c.l. was shut down but now it is back. it is now called personals- m4m.

[Michael Wayne]

Hey Seeker. Flagging works to some degree but once it gets out of hand like in n.y.c. the system gets overwhelmed. We are talking HOT guys for as low as $65. It seems as if it is starting in new york and working its way down to the smaller cities. it is really a problem here in New Orleans.as I said, low rates are fine but the danger involved in both advertising and hiring is tremendous.. I spend over $250 a month on LEGAL ads on rb, m4rn, r.m. and in various print media. To see these free ads so common now is a little frustrating. WE even have a guy here (nameless) who advertises on m4rn legally now advertising on cl personals his pro ad for free. I am all for, "rates vary," but these days the rates are varying really REALLY low. Many escorts in this economy are dramaticlty lowering their rates which is fine but you have to be so careful when doing so not to put yourself in a position of danger.

[down_to_business]

I have hired from these cl ads a few times. They are great for what they are. Yes, they are very affordable (between $25 and $100) and some of the guys I have met have been smoking hot. I guess I am one who could give a rats ass if craigslist terms of service are being violated.

 

These ads do not really interfere with my hiring of the 'pros'. The difference is, when I hire a 'pro' I set it up sometimes weeks in advance. Some of these engagements are hourly, but most are extended.

 

When I hire from a cl post, its a spur of the moment thing. I prefer this because I can hire someone when I am very horny, sometimes within the hour from first contact. These meetings are just for an hour or less. They are usually one-time things, but some have been repeats.

[raife]

Right this minute I'm counting 510 ads mentioning money synonyms on Los Angeles Craigslist both in the m4m and casual encounters sections. Many are under $100. So many of these ads are just guys who are hurting for money in this brutal stagflated economy with $4+ gas prices and overpriced real estate. They are taking positive steps to remedy the situation however they can. If they have the skills and temperament to offer erotic services to lonely horny men who can't quite afford $200+/hr professionals, why begrudge them a realistic avenue to make ends meet?

 

I keep a "Generous Daddy" ad active (mentioning my favorite fetish btw) and have been delighted in the quantity and quality of responses. Lots are students who can't make the exorbitant tuition, single dads who need help paying the rent, so many unemployed dudes just trying to survive until the next check. Falling back on the world's oldest profession is an option they can't afford to ignore.

 

Besides CL, there's also LocalEscortPages, Backpage and others, not to mention the regular pro sites. I just can't keep up.

 

I understand it sucks to be a pro in this environment, but escort rates in the US have risen to staggering heights, many at or exceeding $300/hr on rb, m4rn and the like. And $1500 a night?! Good God, man! There's bound to be a counter reaction and adjustment, with with so many potential customers being priced out of the market.

 

I get the same feeling as an IT pro seeing all the jobs going to the cheap (but highly intelligent) talent in India. I could be in the same boat soon enough.

[raife]

And I thought LA was getting busy, just peeked at NYC CL (to compare) and there's 1573 money ads! Damn, boi! The Big Easy with a scant 47 doesn't seem much of a threat as of yet.

[JoeyBryant]

I have hired from these cl ads a few times. They are great for what they are. Yes, they are very affordable (between $25 and $100) and some of the guys I have met have been smoking hot. I guess I am one who could give a rats ass if craigslist terms of service are being violated.

 

These ads do not really interfere with my hiring of the 'pros'. The difference is, when I hire a 'pro' I set it up sometimes weeks in advance. Some of these engagements are hourly, but most are extended.

 

When I hire from a cl post, its a spur of the moment thing. I prefer this because I can hire someone when I am very horny, sometimes within the hour from first contact. These meetings are just for an hour or less. They are usually one-time things, but some have been repeats.

 

Thanks for clarifying that from a client's perspective.

 

This article goes both ways. Yes some cities have an epidemic of amateur $100 or less 'escorts' (using that term loosely). It can certainly seem like its making the market cheaper if everyone is doing it. But here's the fact, everyone is NOT doing it.

 

Mikey, how many times have you and I heard clients say, "I'd pay any kind of money for that guy" during a porn video? Not because the guy is in porn but because the guy himself!

 

So what if these guys are selling themselves for $65. That is for 1 hour quickie stuff that will barely see anyone thru the next day. Think beyond that (which I'm sure you do, but just speaking generally). Those guys prob can't hold up a longer date and the clients they are seeing probably aren't paying for it either. Think about the long run, not just what you see popping up. But at the same time, don't judge. You don't know what they are going thru or why they put those rates up. And don't flag them either because imagine how many people out there want to get rid of us even though we charge 200 and 300 an hour?

 

What can we do about them? 2 things. Either move away from cities that have high poverty rate areas and huge gay centers or keep your rates firm and offer more. Don't be like them. Sell more than just sex. Sell time, literally.

 

As for:

 

I understand it sucks to be a pro in this environment' date=' but escort rates in the US have risen to staggering heights, many at or exceeding $300/hr on rb, m4rn and the like. And $1500 a night?! Good God, man! There's bound to be a counter reaction and adjustment, with with so many potential customers being priced out of the market. [/quote']

 

Nope, it's great to be a pro in this environment. Because as a pro one is not worrying constantly about where the next 'trick' is going to be coming from because they know that they've got all their ducks in a row and it's just a matter of time. Being a pro brings along a more promising outlook and better services to the client.

 

When there's people out there making $250,000+ a year or even $100,000+ a year and managing it well...$300 or $1,500 is like bowling tickets (which is what someone who i know who makes about that much a year said to me when I mentioned economy and rates). Imagine one of us coming across a client on CL that makes 1.3 million in a year and only asking for $65? How would that make someone feel? And don't be fooled into thinking that millionaires aren't looking at craigslist just like regular people are browsing Versace.com But that's who the pros are catering to. Not the guy who just got paid at the end of the week and is looking to have a bit of fun on the cheap. $65 is fine and dandy for a massage, but when you're talking about a real escort/boyfriend experience, it's going to take more than $65 an hour to stay in business. That's not even enough to pay for a men4rent monthly ad...

[raife]

When there's people out there making $250,000+ a year or even $100,000+ a year and managing it well...$300 or $1,500 is like bowling tickets (which is what someone who i know who makes about that much a year said to me when I mentioned economy and rates). Imagine one of us coming across a client on CL that makes 1.3 million in a year and only asking for $65? And it happens! But that's who the pros are catering to. Not the guy who just got paid at the end of the week and is looking to have a bit of fun on the cheap. $65 is fine and dandy for a massage, but when you're talking about a real escort/boyfriend experience, it's going to take more than $65 an hour to stay in business. That's not even enough to pay for a men4rent monthly ad...

 

Bowling tickets? I just hope there are enough wealthy patron sponsors to go around. The economy is running roughshod over many upper income as well as we "end of the week" paycheck types. The advantage of the $125/hour guys is I can afford either 3-4 quality hours of their time on a weekly basis or a quickie 1hr "blow and go" session with a pricy pro who, given his active travel schedule, may or may not even be around for regulars in a given week. Not a difficult choice.

 

The non-pros have day jobs (or school) so don't have to worry about "staying in business" and there's no m4rn ad to finance.

 

My actual strategy is to find a compatible versatile guy with a palatable "full session" price and see him as often as my budget allows. I grow weary of the hourly rate bullshit. That or there's always the sugar daddy route.

[cany10011]

I don't understand how hiring someone through craigslist puts one at any greater (safety or drug) risk than through a vetted site. I think one must exercise general precautions, rely on intuition, and use common sense in any given encounter with a "stranger". As for economics, escorts get paid what the market will bear. If the lower rates asked for by the boys on CL bothers the pros, then a rate adjustment should be considered. Otherwise, it is a free world and people can ask for and pay for what they feel is equitable.

[EZEtoGRU]

As several have already said, many of these guys working CL these days are likely looking for a little extra cash on the side. Most are not full-time escorts and probably don't want to be. It is a combination of students, dudes down on their luck, unemployed, etc, etc.

 

Interestingly, I run a CL ad from time to time looking for guys (not for pay) and I frequently get responses from young guys looking for "generous men". I have never taken any of them up on it for fear of police sting.

[JoeyBryant]

Bowling tickets? I just hope there are enough wealthy patron sponsors to go around. The economy is running roughshod over many upper income as well as we "end of the week" paycheck types. The advantage of the $125/hour guys is I can afford either 3-4 quality hours of their time on a weekly basis or a quickie 1hr "blow and go" session with a pricy pro who, given his active travel schedule, may or may not even be around for regulars in a given week. Not a difficult choice.

 

The non-pros have day jobs (or school) so don't have to worry about "staying in business" and there's no m4rn ad to finance.

 

My actual strategy is to find a compatible versatile guy with a palatable "full session" price and see him as often as my budget allows. I grow weary of the hourly rate bullshit. That or there's always the sugar daddy route.

 

And I'm not knocking on anyone who charges that amount or who wants to pay that amount either.

 

It goes both ways. Non-pros may be around 1 week and gone the next. I've known some guys who charged bare minimum, just accepted whatever crumbs were handed to them and eventually quit or just never made it. They didn't want to be bothered with the rigors of escorting (kissing, health risks, scheduling, etc) so they dropped out.

 

If you can afford $125/hr multiplied by 3 or 4 hours every week then that's not much of a jump from a guy charging say, $200 an hour offering 3 or 4 hours for $400. But the visible manifestation of the lesser rate is going to come off 'suspicious'. You guys even say it yourselves. You say a guy who looks really good charging less than $180 or $200 is suspicious. What's with the double standards?

 

And FYI, most people who are looking for bargains don't end up regulars and they certainly don't pay for more than an hour. You may be an exception but the numbers are generally lower.

[raife]

If you can afford $125/hr multiplied by 3 or 4 hours every week then that's not much of a jump from a guy charging say, $200 an hour offering 3 or 4 hours for $400.

 

If you're a $200/hr man who'll agree to 3-4 hours for $400 than perhaps you're just the "bargain" I'm looking for.

 

But the visible manifestation of the lesser rate is going to come off 'suspicious'. You guys even say it yourselves. You say a guy who looks really good charging less than $180 or $200 is suspicious. What's with the double standards?

Looks really good and charging less than $180 suspicious? There's certainly a lot of high-ender propaganda swirling around in these waters. They're working it hard to diss CL and the other lowbrow ad sites that provide great value to clients. Also some ersatz fat-wallet dudes engaged in a dick-measuring game to see who can burn through their Benjamins the fastest. Witness the current 2-hr BMW dick-wave-a-thon on the other board. Started by Mikey!? WTF??

 

And FYI, most people who are looking for bargains don't end up regulars and they certainly don't pay for more than an hour. You may be an exception but the numbers are generally lower.

The fellow LA clients I commune with don't agree that I'm the exception. We search for bargains to be able to afford to keep it regular. Prices in NY and LA have finally reached the tipping point and now the backlash has begun. Watch it spread...

[leigh.bess.toad]

Well from my little outpost of Richmond, I haven't seen one ad at all. Of course the couple of "pros" in town on RB, M4RN and A4A Pro Ads (and I use that term pro EXCESSIVELY generously) are guys I would go no where near anyway -- hell I probably wouldn't even pick them upon MH or A4A for free.

 

Sounds to me it's more like C.L. is just becoming the digital version of the street scene in the bigger cities. Unfortunately what happens there on C.L. can filter down to smaller citgies and cause problems for those of us who use C.L. simply for hookups, or meeting guys with more serious relationship intentions. That's where I've met the guy I'm dating now (god, I can't believe I'm actually dating, how weird is that?). Loss of C.L. certainly would, I think, simply force guys to other places like A4A.

 

I for one would not hire someone off of C.L. so it really doesn't affect me in that way. But loss of C.L. for the m4m posts would.

[Michael Wayne]

Hey Raife. You are right, absolutely. It is a trend and high end guys are really pushing the envelope on price. That is why I have reduced my overnight and 24 hr. fly in rate to $800 from $1,000. I have been listening to my clients and potential clients. I am finding exactly as you said that the high-end and upscale clients are looking for bargains and deals and craigslist is giving them just that, Nothing wrong with that at all. The DANGER is this: LAW ENFORCEMENT!!!!!!!!!!!! There are stings all over the u.s.a. now with craigslist as the target. To deny this is to deny the facts. Finally: IT IS A SERIOUS THING TO VIOLATE THE CRAIGSLIST TERMS OF USE. Once the mainstream media gets ahold of this they will open an investigation and shut the whole thing down. For those of you who like c.l. and find hook ups on it I encourage you to speak up about this to the powers that be at craigslist. JOEY: U R right. I am not playing that game nor am I lowering my hourly or two hour rate. Nor am I judging the guys who have to. that is their business. Like I said when I started years ago I offered $60 in calls so I am no one to judge! I worry bout these kids getting busted though- and the clients too. One more thing: my BMW thread was positive about Brandon. I think he is hot and I was reccomending him highly. Some have misunderstood the thread. He is a credit to the biz and my post says so. later, guys

[Michael Wayne]

i have also noticed in the last two weeks that over 90% of the wanted now requests on m.4.r. n. are coming in at LESS than $200 an hour. Most are in the 60-120 dollar range. These guys are looking not just for massage but for full service escort service. There is nothing wrong with asking. The question is : how many escorts will give them what they want for that price.? If I were a client right now I would be loving this!

[Michael Wayne]

Hey Down-to-Business. Glad u r getting hot hookups. One thing I will respond to that you said. Part of my price being what it is means that I AM AVAILABLE at little or no notice to my clients. This is my job (24/7) so when the Ritz Carlton calls or a needy regular uptown calls I can be there in 30 minutes or less. There are those of us who pride ourselves on busting our balls to provide superior customer service and client care. Yes, there are times I am booked up days and weeks in advance but, in the real world, truthfully, alot of us are sitting around waiting for the phone to ring and hoping you or someone like you will call us. we value and appreciate the business, always.

[Guest Spanker01]

I just got off cl for st louis, and in a word, Boring. The only problem I can foresee around here, is an 18 yr old whose really 16.

 

Spanker

[raife]

The DANGER is this: LAW ENFORCEMENT!!!!!!!!!!!! There are stings all over the u.s.a. now with craigslist as the target. To deny this is to deny the facts.

 

These stings are very regional, they overwhelmingly target female escorts who outnumber male escorts 100 to 1 and with some care during the interview and hiring process, whatever small risk that does exist can be minimized to almost complete non-existence.

 

I always ask new escorts I meet (after our session) if they knew of other guys in the business that were affected by entrapment efforts, to date only a couple of LV incidents have come forth, mostly rumor, third party hearsay and conjecture. This is so not a problem. Do I detect a little friendly yet competitive FUD?

 

Finally: IT IS A SERIOUS THING TO VIOLATE THE CRAIGSLIST TERMS OF USE. Once the mainstream media gets ahold of this they will open an investigation and shut the whole thing down. For those of you who like c.l. and find hook ups on it I encourage you to speak up about this to the powers that be at Craigslist.

This also feels like some pre-emptive fearmongering. There have been "generous sugar daddy" m4m ads forever and a spike in these will undoubtedly be attributed to what it is - economic related motives to try and hold some semblance of an income in the face of stagflation and malaise. There are other listing sites besides Craigslist, some out of the country and unreachable by overzealous DA types.

 

The hook-ups ("generous" and otherwise) are going great, I would encourage Craigslist to make it harder to flag, as abusive flagger brigades are causing grief by trying to enforce their own specious moral codes on the boards.

 

Mikey, I certainly don't question your professionalism and dedication to your clients, you're a treasure and next time I'm in NOLA (or you're in TX or Los Angeles) I would love to enjoy a session, you're the man! I just wish you could clone yourself over to the left coast a few times, your competitive spirit would ratchet things up a few notches around here.

 

I do tend to defend the non-pro guys on this board though, because they're not well represented, are often unfairly dumped on and vilified, and happen to make up the majority of guys I see on an ongoing basis. I wouldn't mind if that ratio changed somewhat, I just need to spend more time in Texas or in your neck of the woods so I get away from LA's exorbitant pro prices.

[Poolboy21409]

I haven't seen any obvious ones in the DC or Baltimore listing but boy i am going to read them more carefully now!!

[Michael Wayne]

thanks for your kind words Raife. Your words are well researched and well thought out. It is not however fearmongering. Remember a year ago they did SHUT DOWN adult and EROTIC services totally. Now the same guys are advertising in the free section for pay. My concerns are certainly not MORAL (lol) but I am concerned that certain goody two shoes moralists may try something. Also, while girls do outnumber guys it is FAR sexier for a detective to MAKE HIS BONES by busting a dude than a chick. some care and caution is necessary as you say you are doing. good luck out there!