Retirement

[Guest Thunderbuns]

>One country that

>no one has mentioned is Australia. I really love Australia,

 

Funny you should mention Australia - I did a Google search this morning for comparitive living costs and was surprised to read that New Zealand, of all places, was considered to be a great bargain - And there would be no language problem either. It bears further investigation.

 

Thunderbuns

[Guest in yer face]

Tell him too check out Costa Rica as well. Much more gay friendly, and he can run his own business there as long as he doesnt work in it himself, but instead hires Costa Ricans.

 

See these:

 

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1881233375/ref=pd_bxgy_text_1/102-6277348-1491331

 

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0762724064/qid=1029982160/sr=1-4/ref=sr_1_4/102-6277348-1491331

 

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1881233340/qid=1029982160/sr=1-3/ref=sr_1_3/102-6277348-1491331

 

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0966242149/qid=1029982309/sr=1-2/ref=sr_1_2/102-6277348-1491331

[Guest Thunderbuns]

>You don't say where in Canada your friend lives; I've just

>been assuming that he lives in Vancouver.

 

You're quite right - he does live in Vancouver.

 

>For me, there's a certain irony to that: for quite some

>time, I've thought that Vancouver would be a very attractive

>place for Americans to retire to. It's a great city in an

>incredible setting, with a wonderful climate, smart,

>generous, educated population, and many cultural resources.

 

I think my friend suffers from the "farther fields always look greener" syndrome. He is looking for change for change's sake. As you probably know, although Vancouver has a temperate climate - we do get out fair share of rain. Personally I like the rain. It is seldom the heavy driving kind that I experienced when living in Toronto and Montreal, but rather like a gentle Scotch mist. However, my friend (his name is Lewis, by the way - I'm sure he won't mind me telling you that) prefers a climate where the sun bakes down on you all day, every day.

 

>He's extremely outgoing and very, very bright. And he found

>it a great challenge to suddenly be away from his home and

>the people who formed the circle in which he lived and

>worked. It's not easy building a brand-new set of friends

>and loneliness will be a factor.

 

I would be curious to hear how he is liking it. Was the move a success for him or does he have regrets?

 

Thunderbuns

[trilingual]

Downside to Americans retiring in Canada: taxes. One would have to check those out carefully. Canada has high taxes, and an American retiree would be in a high bracket, because his income would be multiplied by the rate of exchange. That could really make things expensive.

 

Same is true of Brazil. It's not hard to dodge some of the taxes, but if you had to pay on your full foreign income you could find yourself paying twice as much tax as at home. At least, that would be the scenario for me, compared to what my U.S. taxes will be after retirement! So, to stay legal, I may just "commute," spending six months in Brazil (the legal limit for a tourist visa) and six months elsewhere. As a tourist one can one property in Brazil, but you're not subject to income tax.

 

A two bedroom apartment in Copacabana, on one of the side streets (a block or two from the beach) would run approximately US$50,000 - $80,000. Prices are lower in other cities in Brazil; Rio suffers from the Manhattan/San Francisco syndrome: not enough land and too many people. Apartments tend to be smaller than in North America. A two bedroom would have from 80 - 100 square meters, or between 880 - 1100 sq. ft. Rents on a 2 bedroom run between US$200 - $400/mo. The more expensive places may have two bathrooms, one of which is "en suite" with the master bedroom. Prices also vary depending on whether a place comes with a parking spot in the building's garage. (Some people just rent their spaces to other drivers for extra income.) Apartments without parking spaces are cheaper, of course, than those that have them. At least this will give you an idea of prices in Rio.

 

Prices in BA would be the same, or lower, depending on the neighborhood. Deep discounts are available for buyers with cash dollars.

[trilingual]

That was supposed to be: Tourists can OWN property in Rio. Hope that makes more sense!

[Guest Thunderbuns]

>A two bedroom apartment in Copacabana, on one of the side

>streets (a block or two from the beach) would run

>approximately US$50,000 - $80,000

 

That sounds VERY reasonable by our standards, unless they hook you with high maintenance charges or high property taxes.

 

Just think of the luxury you could buy if you were willing to spend $150 - 200,000!

 

Thanks again for the info Tri.

 

Thunderbuns

[Boston Guy]

I haven't talked to him for a while, so I'm not sure right now. The last time we spoke, it was sort of a mixed bag, although he was glad he had done it.

 

BG

[Boston Guy]

I was sort of curious this morning what resources were available on this topic.

 

I'm off to the airport again so I only had a two minutes to look. But I did find what looks like a very good and relevant Web site: The Network for Living Abroad - Linking Expats Past, Present and Future.

 

Here's the link:

 

http://www.liveabroad.com/links.html

 

BG

[trilingual]

Maintenance charges and property taxes in Brazil are low by North American standards.

[Guest Thunderbuns]

>I was sort of curious this morning what resources were

>available on this topic.

>

>I'm off to the airport again so I only had a two minutes to

>look. But I did find what looks like a very good and

>relevant Web site: The Network for Living Abroad - Linking

>Expats Past, Present and Future.

>

>Here's the link:

>

>http://www.liveabroad.com/links.html

>

>BG

 

Excellent resource - thanks for the link!

 

Thunderbuns

[+ Charlie]

I, too, was curious about retirement to Canada because of the favorable exchange rate, but it is offset by other factors. It is difficult for retirees to get legal resident status in Canada, so most have to settle for "visitor" status.

 

The advantage of being a "visitor" is that you don't have to pay Canadian taxes, which are much higher than American. However, there are a number of disadvantages. You can only stay in Canada for six months at a time, and then you must leave for at least three days before re-entering. You must maintain a legal residence in the USA for things like a driver's license. You may face difficulties entering and leaving the country, especially in the sort of troubled times we are experiencing right now. If you try to enter with all your personal property, you may have to post a substantial bond to guarantee that you will not sell it in Canada. You can't take a job in Canada to earn extra money. Perhaps most important, you cannot use Canada's subsidized health care system (this is probably the main reason why Canada discourages legal residence, because they don't want Canadian taxpayers supporting ill Americans), so you must have US health insurance that can be used in Canada.

 

If you want to spend your winter vacation in Palm Springs, and you can deal with the other factors, then Canada might be an option for you, but in that case you probably have enough money that you are not living there for economic reasons anyway.

[+ Charlie]

As you can probably tell, I am more obsessed with this topic than I am with sex, so I certainly like your idea of a separate forum on it.

[IamI2002]

Those who wish to speak Catalan, may, but Spanish is equally common. I have NEVER been to any establishment in the area (mind you I don't do slums) where Spanish was not spoken. I think your advice is often bookish, not from experience. I would like to believe you, but you appear a little "too" knowing and reminiscent of folks from the South (US) who know a little, but then generalize to delude themselves they're authorities.

 

I know you'll be offended and take this hard, but those naive followers you're developing should be forewarned.

[IamI2002]

I don't know who your friends are and I don't know how you define "middle class", but to state you can live in Rio for under $20,000 is true, but not to the standards I consider middle class. I have been to Canada often and would venture a guess that sum will not get a Canadian what he's used to. Now there are economies to be enjoyed and when you start talking about the upeer $30,000s range, there I feel you begin to hit "middle class" as I define it.

 

Definition:

 

1. Live in comfortable 2BR 2BA K LR/DR place with reliable running and hot water and AC, possibly heat (not often needed). Have the place with elevator for those who need it (I don't use elevators and recently I walked 7 flights each day for 13 days to my floor in DF by choice)

2. Have TV, telephone, cable

3. Have adequate medical/dental care with yearly exams and twice yearly dental cleaning/exams, doing all required restorative work

4. Have adequate, healthy meals and eat out at least once a week

5. Go to a movie/concert at least bi-weekly

6. Have adequate number of decent shoes/clothes and clean them as required

7. Have enough money for local and medium-range transportation without sacrificing other items (understood car is not necessary, but a means to get around is ... and ... public buses/metro is not always ideal --- This is not Montreal)

8. Be able to take an overseas trip at least biennially

9. Have areas of exercise in complex, nearby or belong to a gym -- for health maintenance reasons, not to be an A gay.

 

I've probably omitted a dozen other things. Do believe me that you don't get this list on $17,000 a year. Double that and pray!

 

I don't mean to be contentious and I know you mean well. I just hope the readership is not misled by good intentions.

[IamI2002]

You better check out the building's BASICS, never mind the amenities, before you get too excited and sign on the bottom line. Don't mean to rain on your parade, as I too would wish this to be true. It probably IS true, in its own way, BUT... you cannot compare it to what we're used to. A local there has always lived with tolerable inconveniences, that we would not be super happy about.

 

Just a thought. If you wish to flame, I'll get my asbestos PRIDE-colored cape.

[trilingual]

IamI2002 is correct when he suggests that living in a place like Rio will have it's share of annoyances/idiosyncracies that one doesn't put up with in Canada or the U.S. But for the most part, a middle-class lifestyle in a middle-class apartment building in Rio isn't that different from what it is in the Northern Hemisphere.

 

At the risk of being "contentious," the figures I've given here are accurate, as far as I know. They're what I'm using to figure out a possible retirement budget if I decide to live in Rio, so I'm trying to be as realistic as possible. Since I have friends in Brazil with whom I'm in contact all the time, plus I read the Brazilian papers daily on the web and check the classifieds constantly to keep abreast of real estate prices, I think I'm pretty much on the mark here. The prices I've given for apartments are for places that are "standard" to "superior." Of course, as in any large city, you can spend as much as you want. If your heart is set on a large, deluxe apartment overlooking the ocean on Av. Vieira Souto (the ocean-front avenue in Ipanema) you can easily spend US$500,000. Less lavish but perfectly nice places run much less just a block or two inland. Apartments tend to be smaller than in North America, but I've seen huge apartments in some of the older buildings in Copacabana and they weren't outrageously expensive. But how many of us future retirees really needs a 4-bedroom 160 s.m. apartment? (1760 sq.ft.)

 

I really don't know what IamI2002 is talking about with respect to the transportation situation in Rio. If you live in Copacabana or Ipanema/Leblon there's absolutely no need for a car, as public transportation is super-abundant, between buses, metro and cabs. Shopping and services are all within a few blocks, supermarkets deliver, and on the whole it's a very easy place to survive without a car. There are rare occasions when one wants to go shopping out in Barra da Tijuca, but if you don't have a car you can just catch the air-conditioned "executivo" bus along the ocean-front boulevard, which drops you right at the shopping malls in Barra. If you're loaded down on your return, there are lines of cabs at the malls waiting to pick you up. It's a bit of an expensive ride back to Copacabana, but hardly in the ball park of what it would cost to own and operate a car. The public transportation situation in other large Brazilian cities is similar to Rio's. It's very easy to get around.

 

As for the use of Catalan in Barcelona and region, as I said in my earlier post it isn't necessary to speak it in Barcelona, as everyone is bilingual. You do need some acquaintance with the language to read signs, theater programs, etc. If someone's going to live there, a knowledge of at least some everyday Catalan will go a long way towards winning friends (something IamI2002 doesn't seem to be very pre-occupied with). In small towns in Catalonia that are off the tourist track there are people who only speak Catalan, and a knowledge of the language would be necessary if you planned to live in such a place. Catalan IS the language of the region, and it's boorish to live there and not speak a word of it. In that sense, it's similar to Canada. Imagine living in Montreal if you didn't understand or speak any French. Not only would you feel isolated, but you wouldn't be very popular!

[trilingual]

>I think your advice is often bookish, not from experience. I

>would like to believe you, but you appear a little "too"

>knowing and reminiscent of folks from the South (US) who

>know a little, but then generalize to delude themselves

>they're authorities.

>

>I know you'll be offended and take this hard, but those

>naive followers you're developing should be forewarned.

 

Sweetie, my advice is all from experience. I'm 56 years old, I've been to all of these places many times over, and I make every effort to be accurate when I give information. However, if I don't know something, I certainly don't have a problem saying so. As for Brazil and Argentina, I've been going there for 20 years, have traveled over much of both countries, and when you add up all the time I've spent there it comes to more than a year. So there's nothing "bookish" about my knowledge of Brazil, Argentina, Spain or other places where I've lived or traveled. And even though I'm not from the South (although I've lived there, too) there are plenty of people there who know a great deal about many things, and don't have to delude themselves or anyone else into believing they're authorities. You must hang out with strange circles of people if that's your experience of Southerners.

 

Futhermore, if you read the comments from guys who've used my information or taken my advice, you'll see that they feel I was more than accurate and complete. So the things I've said have been validated by others. And believe me, I'm hardly offended when someone thanks me for having helped them take an unforgettable trip and having guided them to places they wouldn't have ever found on their own. Quite the contrary!

[Guest Thunderbuns]

>In that sense, it's

>similar to Canada. Imagine living in Montreal if you didn't

>understand or speak any French. Not only would you feel

>isolated, but you wouldn't be very popular!

 

I'm not posting this to argue with you - but there is one fundamental differance in Montreal. Canada is officially a bilingial country with all government offices recognizing both French and English.

 

I lived in Montreal for 2 years and although had taken French in school I really didn't speak it. When I moved to Montreal I thought it would be a perfect opportunity to learn it - wrong! As soon as I attempted to speak to French Canadians in French they realized I was struggling and they immediately switched to English as it was easier for both of us.

 

The only time I ever had a problem with the language was in a very snooty art gallery on Sherbrook Stret. I was enquireing in English about a painting that was priced at $5000. They refused to speak English to me. Needless to say - they lost the sale. Now was this their loss or mine?

 

If one wishes to hang out with young men from blue collar backgrounds whose education has been somewhat limited - then there might be a problem as they tend to only understand French. But apart from that, I didn't really feel handicapped.

 

Thunderbuns

[IamI2002]

You're on the nose. And this is exactly my point -- Tri takes a bookish thought and generalizes it into all-encompassing practice. Reread his post re: Catalan and his rebuttal where he modifies it more accurately. Although, as he says, in isolated villages (I don't know who would retire there) very nice people might speak nothing but Catalan, the norm is Spanish. If you learned a word or two of Catalan, they WOULD embrace you as a lovable eccentric, never as part of the extended-extended family.

 

At any rate, Tri is a major force of this board and has a large following of Brazil visitors who thank him for tips, such as what saunas to visit and whom to choose for exotic tours (take a guess). Serious decisions about one's life in mature years are another thing. Please do your own research and ask yourselves what it is you want and confront it experimentally before jumping in.

 

I don't know Tri's standard of living (and don't care), but, a "middle class" in SA is NOT a middle class in NA. What and how he plans his retirement is his business and how much he will give up compared to what he has now, who knows. He seems to think nothing will change from his present living standard.

 

Caveat emptor

[+ Charlie]

One can get by almost anywhere with minimal language skills--I neither speak nor read Japanese, but have never had any problem traveling on my own in Japan, where even professional "English teachers" are often incomprehensible. However, in the place where we live, most of us want to be able to engage in deep conversation on complex topics, as we do on this board (!) and that requires mutual fluency in a language.

 

Of course, there are advantages to not being able to do this with a hot young street hunk, since it eliminates the need for tedious polite conversation when that is not your goal;-)

[IamI2002]

And what was that well-built, gorgeous, dominant, punkish, street hunk's number again? I need to discuss some deep topics.

 

}>

[IamI2002]

>IamI2002 is correct when he suggests that living in a place

>like Rio will have it's share of annoyances/idiosyncracies

>that one doesn't put up with in Canada or the U.S.

>I really don't know what IamI2002 is talking about with

>respect to the transportation situation in Rio.

 

 

Below is a quote copied from Trlingual's message posted on August 8, 2002:

 

"Using the bus: Ask at the hotel what the current fare is and have exact change if you can, or at least have close to it. DO NOT try changing anything larger than a R$5 bill on a bus. Don't flash money on a bus. Board through the rear door. Pay the fare collector and push your way through the turnstile. Pull the buzzer for your stop. You can ask the driver to let you know, but they're not very conversational. They all think they're driving in the Grand Prix! If you know where your stop is, try to move up to the front door in plenty of time to get off, because you sometimes have to get off "on the fly". Rio bus riding is a real action sport! A thrill a minute!"

 

Sure sounds like what we're accostomed to, n'est-ce pas. Hope you have insurance.

[Guest newbie2it]

Met a real estate broker who grew up in argentina and now lives in miami who stays current with re market in Buenos Aires.

 

He claims that prices there have always been very low by US standards -ie that BEFORE current crisis that app $90,000 US bought a beautiful and large-2,000 sq ft apt in a fine well-maintained and secure building in a good nabe.

Further claims that NOW this sort of place can be had for less than half that amount BUT thinks that IF things stabilize in the winter the price will quickly bounce back to old level.

 

Caveat emptor: do not know him and can not speak for his knowledge accuracy in the matter.

[trilingual]

Did I say it was EXACTLY the same as in North America? I don't see anything in my posts to indicate that. If it was exactly the same, what would be the point in moving there? It'd be easier just to stay home!

 

As for "middle class," I'm referring to a lifestyle similar (or in some cases better) than in North America. My middle-class friends in South America all have nice apartments, go out to dinner, take in films and shows, have maids, own big screen TVs (and have cable/satellite), take trips (both domestically and abroad), belong to gyms (the ones who are athletic), etc. Some own cars. As a government employee in San Francisco, my life-style is middle class but certainly not lavish. (I don't own a car, for example.) However, I have everything I need, and so do my friends in South America. Of course, there are truly wealthy people there, but I haven't been hanging out with that crowd. I know that my retirement income, at the current and foreseeable rates of exchange and inflation, will be more than sufficient to permit a very comfortable, almost lavish, life-style in Brazil. (I got over lavish years ago, except for the occasional indulgence in some champagne, caviar and foie gras on New Year's Eve.) Based on rents and cost of living, and the current exchance rate, someone with US$2000/mo. can live very comfortably in Brazil. That's R$6000/mo., which is a lot of money in Brazil. My friends in Brazil estimate that R$3500 - R$4000/mo. is what it takes to maintain a middle-class lifestyle there. I notice that IamI2002 doesn't provide any source for his gloom-and-doom estimates of the cost of living in Brazil. I've said where mine come from, and what they're based on. After that, for anyone thinking of living in South America after retirement it's up them to do their research, knowing what their income and assets will be after retirement.

 

For my last flog on the Catalan dead horse, Spain is an officially multi-lingual country, although the minority languages only have official status in the regions in which they're spoken, not nationwide as in Canada. Besides Catalan, which is the official language of Catalonia, Valencia and the Balearic Islands (and independent Andorra), Basque is the official language of Navarre and the Basque provinces, and Galician is the official language of Galicia, in northwest Spain. There are some other local languages still in use in Spain, too, like Bable, but their use is limited and they don't have official status. There are many places in Catalonia where Spanish isn't the primary language. Contrary to what IamI2002 thinks, some people find picturesque European small towns charming and decide to retire there. All I'm saying is that someone planning on retiring to such a place in Catalonia should be prepared for the fact that Spanish may not be the primary language of the place in which they live, and that they'll need to learn at least some Catalan in order to fit in better and be more comfortable in their community. A lot of people, particularly Americans, don't realize that Spain is not a uni-lingual country and that other languages may be necessary if someone plans to live in one of the regions where they're spoken. Catalan, by the way, is the language of some six million people, which is more than the number of speakers of Danish, Norwegian or Finnish, for example. Catalan is the largest language in Europe whose speakers don't have an independent country of their own. (Well, except for Andorra, of course, but it's tiny; basically a shopping mall with some ski slopes.)

 

By the way, I lived in Montreal myself at one time (back in the '70s) and it was difficult not being able to speak French. There were lots of people who couldn't (or wouldn't) speak English, which made it hard to communicate. One couldn't assume that everyone was bilingual, and especially not in other towns in the province of Quebec. Barcelona isn't like that, but the Catalans are very sensitive about the language issue because its use was suppressed during the Franco dictatorship and they're very concerned with the survival and propagation of the language. Since Catalonia isn't independent, they have no control over immigration of non-Catalan speakers from other parts of Spain, and they've felt overwhelmed by the number of monolingual Spanish speakers who've moved to Barcelona in search of work, but don't bother to learn the language. Although everyone in Barcelona can speak Spanish, showing an interest in Catalan goes a long way to endear you to the locals! :-)

[IamI2002]

What can I say, lollipop, you're right again! What an authority on everything!! I bet as a government employee you write singlehandedly all those free publications we can get from Pueblo. Would that I were so erudite! Sigh.

 

My firm pays managers in Brazil around $30,000 yearly and I have been to their apartments in Rio, Sao Paulo and a smallish city in Minas Gerais. They are lovely people and do OK, under the circumstances, but hardly live in posh quarters. Imagine what it would be like with $20,000.

 

I have never been to a government employee's dwelling (my loss, not theirs), so I can't say whether I would be appalled at the surroundings (comparatively speaking, of course). I do realize I need to count my blessings for my 2-acre, 4br, 3-car garage home about which a friend remarked "you live in a state forest." I hope I can live on less later on, and not waste one garage space, since I own only 2 German cars.