Advice Needed for Getting Him in the Sack...

[scudman]

Hey Guys. My handle may look new, but I used to post here about 6 months ago. I guess I lost my access because of lack of use, but anyway--I've been lurking around ever since. I need a little advice from you guys about how to approach a guy I'm dying to get to know better. I know this post is WAAAY too long, but if you have the time, hopefully some of you more experienced guys could give me some advice.

 

I'm in my late 30s, workout at the gym regularly so I'm in pretty good shape. Due to many circumstances I'm firmly in the closet for now. I work with a lot of other people, some of whom are gay so I don't ever go to local bars in case I would be seen there. The only time I've ever had sex with other guys is when I've paid for it, and luckily I have the funds to do that with no problem. Even though many escorts have told me I'm good looking and fun to fool around with, I would love to enjoy sex knowing the guy REALLY wants me, and not just the bucks.

 

The guy I am falling for is a masseur that I've hired a couple of times. He advertises in the local gay paper and I know that he is gay. He is gorgeous, early 20s, about 6'2" awesome body and the deepest most wonderful brown eyes I've ever seen. I was literally weak kneed the first time he walked into the massage room. The first time I went to him the massage was all business, but wonderful. It was an hour and a half of heaven. I was nude and undraped, but he never touched me unprofessionally (dammit!), even when I got a raging hardon while on my back.

 

Here's the part that's given me some hope: after the massage, while I was dressing and he was changing the table linens, I mentioned how great his technique was and how much I enjoyed the massage. He told me that I had a "great body", that he had enjoyed working on me and felt that we had a "real connection" during the session. When I was leaving he gave me a really tight hug and kissed me on the lips, once a peck and then a second time maybe a nanosecond longer (or was it just my imagination?). I think he was flirting a bit, but I'm so out of it when it comes to this that I didn't know what to make of it.

 

Just yesterday, after about a 3-week period, I went to see him again. He was very warm, gave me a kiss and a hug when I got there, but once again gave me a 100% professional massage with nothing more. We chatted a bit more afterward and he laughed when he told me a story that he thought he had seen me at a local gay bar and had actually walked up to the guy and started a conversation before he realized it wasn't me. That's a good sign isn't it? Once again, as I left he gave me a big bear hug and a couple of quick kisses on the lips, but that was it.

 

I know this is a long, boring saga from a neurotic moron, but I can't stop thinking about getting with this guy for something more. I feel like he is serious about his massage work and doesn't want to make it sexual--partly because he does his work in a shared studio in an office building with other masseurs. I asked, and he does do outcalls, which might make him willing to do more during the session. My problem is I live with others so I can't have him come to my place--and getting a hotel room for a massage outcall when he has a studio sounds cheesy to me.

 

My overall dilemma is how to read the signals he's giving me. I know a friendly kiss is common among gay men, so he may mean nothing by it. He is also SOOOO handsome that it's hard for me to believe that he'd be interested in someone like me, who's attractive but not at his level--plus I'm 15+ years older. I would hate to make a more aggressive overture and have him be uncomfortable or put off, which would definitely affect my ability to hire him again as a masseur, which I would hate. I feel like he probably has guys hitting on him all the time. But I can't stop thinking about him and dreaming how great it would be to get him into the sack...

 

If anyone's read this far and is still awake, could you please give me some advice? Though I'm very confident in the business world, I'm a total novice in intimate male relationships and just don't know what to do in this situation to find out if he'd be interested in anything more.

 

Thanks for anything you guys can offer. :-)

[marc anthony]

I would simply tell him that you have had wonderful experiences with his massages, and that you find him very attractive, and you were wondering if he does more "erotic" massages.

 

The ball is then in his court to 1)tell you "no", 2)tell you "yes" and raise the price (in which case you can conclude that he is willing to have a great time with you but that perhaps his attraction to you is not more than professional), or 3)tell you "yes" and go further for the same massage rate (in which case you can safely conclude that he is attracted to you as well, and then you can take it from there).

 

In this way you can find out what you want to know without "losing face" and without endangering your current massage relationship.

[catnip]

Hey - Sorry you're between a rock and a hard place, as it were - the hard place being your situation right now, and the rock being, well, your hard place ;-)

 

You're just going to torture yourself doing all this indirect stuff you're thinking of, whether it's doing an outcall at a Days Inn (don't EVEN!) or waiting for him to deep French you after a massage. Ask him out - if you can afford an escort sometimes, you can afford to take him to a decent restaurant for dinner. See if the vibe is nice and, if so, tell him that you're interested in something more with him, but that you don't want to compromise his professionalism, which is why you didn't act on those ever-so-lingering kisses after your sessions. If he says no, then you're free of a dilemma. It's up to you whether to continue receiving massages from him or not. If he says yes, please give us all the the hot details }>

[Guest SeaGuy]

Geez, just ask him out as the last poster said. I know you're in the closet but that is the only way you'll know if he's interested in you outside of a professional relationship as a masseur. Asking him about "erotic massage" will at most get you just that, an erotic massage that you'll have to pay for, so you will not satisfy your curiosity about whether he's attracted to you just for the bucks. :7

[marc anthony]

Asking him out would be great advice if being in the closet isn't part of the situation. You cannot remain in the closet if you take guys out in your own home town. My response assumes that the original poster is adamant about remaining there... and I think it is a good assumption given the conflicting feelings expressed in his original post.

[Guest SeaGuy]

Unless the guy is an absolute queen you can at least go out for a cup of coffee or a drink to a non-gay bar. Just keep a low profile and be frank about not being out at work, that is if you want to have a non-professional relationship i.e. friendship/fuckbuddies. I go out with straight male friends all the time and I don't think they fear being labeled gay just because they are seen in public with a gay guy, but heck, I guess each person has their own issues. If even this is out of the question, well then you have to face the facts that you're not going to be able to have a non-professional/non-paying relationship with him because your personal and social circumstances do not permit that, period. You'll just have to keep that wall between you and him. :o

[Guest Merlin]

I think the kisses on the lips is a sure indication that he is interested in more than a massage. You know he is gay and he knows or thinks you are gay. The story of him thinking you were in the gay bar was his way of telling you he is and asking if you are. The next time he kisses you on the lips respond and linger on it. Then ask him if he would be willing to meet you for something more than a massage. There is no chance he will be offended.

[jack]

Marc really has the correct answer. Period. Nonetheless, you could also suggest, when you are lying on your back with a hardon and when he works his hands onto your lower abs near the base of your cock, that you are counting on his massaging all your muscles including that muscle. It is normal for that muscle to get massaged. etc etc. I appreciate the problem. I think you can be successful. You should also suggest to him (when you are lying on your stomach) that since you are nude, you invite him to join you if he wants to drop his drawns and that you have been remiss in not inviting him to do so since most masseuses prefer to be nude with their clients. This can be very important since there are numerous times, particularly when you are on your back, that you can share in the feelings by letting your hand wander up the back and inside of his legs from time to time. Of course, when he's nude, you can gently hang on to his cock which he would appreciate. Your basic problem could be his being in a clinic setting. But don't let that stop you. If he turns out to be a tease, drop him, but not before soft warnings that if he can't do all you muscles, you'll have to go elsewhere. Good luck. Let us know.

[jack]

It would be rudimentary to know if, when you are on your back, he allows you to drop your arms down along side the massage table, or, if he requires you to keep your hands and arms up next to your hips or on your tummie.

 

And, if he allows you to drop your hands and arms down, then, have you with your hands touched the back and inside or his legs from time to time when he makes his body, legs, available for your touch.

 

If he allows your hands on his legs, etc. you have it made. In general, two things: I'd try to settle this in the massage room without lunch, dinner, etc. 'cause so far its a business situation which well it should be: you're paying him to do something. Secondly, I did have a replay earlier to marc which apparently hasn't shown up. Good luck, and,

 

Let us know how you do.

[Guest jrpSCORP]

I totally agree with Marc Anthony and would definitely do as he suggested before I even thought about dating him. That "erotic" massage COULD possibly transcend the professional. Then, take it from there. Go slowly, even though I know it must be hard (now, do I MEAN that Freudian slip? )

[phage]

I agree with what Seaguy has been saying. You really need to decide if you want to go out with the guy or just get off with him. If you steer this towards an erotic massage situation, you’ve probably lost the guy for anything more because you aren’t letting him know that you are interested in him as a person…only that you are interested in having him service you.

 

If that’s all your personal circumstances will allow then go for it, but don’t expect to answer the question of whether he is interested in you or your wallet.

[Rod Hagen]

How about respecting his limits and either backing off or asking him out? You're closeted and can't ask him out, too bad, move on and hire someone you CAN get what you want out of.

 

Just because he performs a legitimate experience HAPPENS to take place around your crotch, doesn't mean you should expect, or even ASK, him to go further. That's fucking rude.

 

If the Hot Doctor who does your Dialysis every week has been giving you the eye lately, you don't suggest, as he's sticking the needle in right by your nuts, that he warm your groin with his lips first do you?

 

Do you ask the guy who cuts your hair to lick your ears while he's at it?

 

Probably not. So treat the guy with some respect, he's a professional too. You find him attractive, but you're closeted. Then either tell him you like him but you can ONLY fuck him in secret and that there's to be no dating, or move on. But respect that he's a hired hand, not a hired hand job.

[Guest DevonSFescort]

The signals you're describing don't sound like anything a naturally flirtatious person might not do in the course of going about his business, especially if that business is directed at gay/bi men who are hiring him in large part because of his looks. I'd have to be in the room with the two of you to be able to tell...which, hmm, sounds like it might be fun... :9

 

Next time during the massage, "interview" him about what it's like being a masseur. He'll be used to "Do you ever get any freaks for clients" type questions, and he'll be used to being asked if he ever hooks up with his clients. If he's open to hooking up with you, his answer will probably at least gently steer you in that direction and you can be a little more direct and a little less hypothetical. If he's not, he'll probably say that he never does, never would, etc. That's a face-saving way of finding out if you ought to back off. Believe me, even if he's not interested there are much, much worse things than being hit on by a guy with a nice body, even if he's not quite your type or he's not available, etc. And since, as you say, he probably gets hit on all the time he has probably acquired the social skills to deal with respectful expressions of interest gracefully. (Well, possibly not, but let's keep a good thought.)

 

I wouldn't stress about the age difference by the way. 38, for a lot of younger guys, is just right. Good luck and have fun.

[Guest Kenny021]

I agree with the guys who feel that you should inform him that you would like to persue another avenue with him. Tell him that in the course of getting the massages and getting to know him, you like him and would like to know if he would go out to dinner or a movie with you. Don't gush and show him that if he says "no", that you'll fall apart. Make it sound like you think he is a very nice guy and you would like to get to know him better. If he doesn't want to do it, he will find a way to say no without hurting your feelings....something like "I don't date my clients, I don't mix business with pleasure, etc. etc. On the other hand, he may say yes and than you can make a defenite date. If you click on the date, he may very well invite you to his place...after you tell him that you can't have anyone at your place?

I would stay away from playing the "games" during the massage. That can be embarassing if he pushes your hand away.

[Guest Thunderbuns]

>If the Hot Doctor who does your Dialysis every week has been

>giving you the eye lately, you don't suggest, as he's

>sticking the needle in right by your nuts, that he warm your

>groin with his lips first do you?

>

>Do you ask the guy who cuts your hair to lick your ears

>while he's at it?

>

>But respect that he's a hired hand, not a hired

>hand job.

 

This may come as a complete surprise to you - but - my doctor has never kissed me on the lips. Nor has my hair stylist.

 

Any "hired hand" that kissed me on the lips after each employment would be inviting something more, IMHO. And he certainly would have no cause to be ticked off if I tried to take it further. If he is SO professional, perhaps a hand shake, rather than a kiss would be the expected form of thank you and good day!

 

Thunderbuns

[Will]

You don't sound neurotic to me, just inexperienced and understandably anxious. Your being in the closet doesn't help anything at all, but that's neither here nor there.

 

As the most sexually dimwitted gay man on the planet, whose dimwittedness has always been accompanied by the assumption that nobody would ever come on to me for any reason other than commercial, I can easily identify with your situation. However, because it's not I but you, and because I have had plenty of "legitimate" massages from gay massage therapists, I think I know what's probably going on with him. You've already told us what's going on with you.

 

To me, it sounds simple: he's coming on to you and would like to go out with you. As a licensed massage therapist he really can't go further than he's already gone with you in that professional context. (I can tell you right now that no gay massage therapist ever greeted me with a tight hug and two kisses on the lips.) If he turned out to be mistaken about you, and you complained, he could lose his license and his livelihood.

 

What would make me happy to know is that you might have done something like this. Go to see him again, as soon as you like. While you're on the table and you're chatting, ask him if he'd like to go out for coffee or to have lunch sometime. (You might even make your appointment for, say, 11:00 or 11:30 a.m.) If he says yes, then you know that he's interested in you in ways other than as a client. (After all, this guy is not an escort and does not offer "erotic" or "full-body" massage and I think it would be disrespectful to ask him if he'd make an exception for you. In any event, why put your relationship -- if it's to be something more than just a massage -- on a commercial footing without first giving it the chance to be normal and natural?)

 

If he accepts, and I think he probably will, over lunch or coffee you can start the conversation by asking him, as has already been suggested, about his experience with gay clients, what he does with clients who have hard-ons (as though you didn't know!), and so forth. That's all you have to do. Venus and her son Eros will take over and you two can just relax and enjoy the trip.

 

Finally, the age difference is irrelevant at this point. In the event, it is he who has indicated more than a professional interest in you, not the other way around. Believe it or not, there are gay men who actually prefer their partners to be older. Thank God. Otherwise, nobody would ever be able to pair up with anybody, unless they were identical twins.

 

Take heart, good luck, and go for it. By the way, be sure to let us know what happens!

[FrancoDiSantisxxx]

Everyone has an opinion

 

I would have to say I agree more with seaguy than anyone else plus that I second Rod Hagen's opinions. It really depends on CITY and the individual, Will, as to whether a LMT would give you a hug or a peck (and whether or not one may perceive a friendly peck as more of a kiss is another matter).

 

As for the rest, if the massage has been a straightforward and strictly legit massage IT is both rude and presumption to ask either if he can make the massage more erotic or to believe that his being friendly to a client means more than good customer service. If he is giving you a good massage, take it for that. If you want to ask him out on a date, do that as well, however, contrary to what the other guys here have been responding to you, which I can only assume may be what you would like to hear, I think this is a path that will get you nowhere and make any further massage work from this guy uncomfortable for you both.

 

Dear Abby would probably suggest the tried and true activities: you need to put yourself out there, try personal ads, try semi-open activities where men and simply go up and introduce yourself. It will happen that you will get turned down, it will also happen that you won't. But do not put all your time and energy into something in which you may be far more invested emotionally than what is purely a service transaction where the service provider is treating you like a human being, and not an ATM machine.

 

I will let you into my dreams if I can be in yours.

 

http://www.gaydar.co.uk/francodisantis

[jack]

Scudman. If you're looking for company then tell him that and ask him out. If you're looking for a masseus who will do a complete stress relief job, then handle what he will or will not right there. They are two different events: a date vs a rubdown.

 

For the rubdown, do what marc said to do the first time and, perhaps, integrate some of the things I suggested (I've had massages on trips all around the world and I know how to find out if I'm going to rehire the guy and he knows if he is or is not going to get rehired).

 

For the date, do whatever the other guys said.

 

Frankly, if he's insisting you keep your hands and arms up on the table at all times, your entire story is speculative and inconsistant.

[Rick Munroe]

>Due to many circumstances I'm firmly in

>the closet for now. I work with a lot of other people, some

>of whom are gay so I don't ever go to local bars in case I

>would be seen there.

 

May I ask what those circumstances are? Having never been in the closet, this stuff fascinates me. You work with out gay people but don't want them to know you're out. If they're out, I assume you don't work in a homophobic industry or company. Why are you afraid of them finding out you're one of them?

 

Also...I don't mean to be harsh (and if I am, blame it on my overnight job last night...I need a nap!) but this infatuation with your masseur seems a bit juvenile to me. I think if you weren't closeted and allowed yourself to be with men outside of a professional circumstance, you'd probably find what you're looking for, and it would be far more satisfying. (OK, definitely nap time...I don't even want to read this to see if it makes sense before I click "post message"...bad sign)

[Rod Hagen]

>If he is SO professional, perhaps a hand

>shake, rather than a kiss would be the expected form of

 

Gays often kiss "hello" and "goodbye". It certainly doesn't imply "it's ok to caress my thighs during the next procedure". Thank YOU and goodbye, thunder.

[Guest TexasTaurus]

Don't ask for an erotic massage. Many therapists are simply TOO professional to do that, gay or not.

 

Though you are in the closet, you MUST go to a gay bar every once in a while. During your next massage, ask him what gay bar he goes to (he said he thought he saw you there) and, you can skillfully, find out when he is going next. If he is interested, he will tell you and then you can just show up there and he WILL come over and talk with you. He has already said he would. I have done that before and it worked.

 

Good luck!

[chrismac]

I completely agree with Devon's response. If I were in your situation, I'd handle it as Devon suggests - that should give you the direction you're looking for.

 

I can understand your comment about being closeted and not wanting others at work to know, ESPECIALLY the gay ones. Probably not everyone at your work is gay, and you don't want everyone to know about you. If the gay guys know you're gay - they might not be able to resist the temptation to "out" you at work. I don't know why some people are like that - but people love reading "Us" Magazine for the same reason I guess - gossip. You probably want to handle those issues in your own time and on your own terms, not someone else's.

 

You could also tell him, if after a future session he seems affectionate and makes complimentary comments toward you, something like, "well, if you ever want to see me non-professionally, just let me know..." as he heads out your door. No harm in that. Just don't seem desperate or fawning.

[scudman]

WOW!! You guys are awesome!:-)

 

I've been away all day and this is the first chance I've had to check the board. Thanks so much for all of the great advice.

 

The more I read, the more I have decided that I don't want to try and compromise him professionally by trying to coax him to give me an erotic massage. I really feel like he enjoys his work (he's working on getting his national license) and I think it would make him uncomfortable to do more. In both sessions, I gave him plenty of chances to spice up the massage, e.g. arching my back a little when he's working on my butt, putting my hands close enough to the edge to brush against his crotch area if he wanted, etc. but he hasn't budged. And the fact that he carefully worked around my hardon (which I'm proud to say is nice and thick) while massaging my abs tells me he doesn't want to do more.

 

Believe me, I've had plenty of sensual massages. One guy ended up riding my cock right on the table, and most remarkably (at a "straight" spa no less) I once started a massage fully draped and ended up bent over the table getting pounded by a Tom of Finland type scandinavian guy, calling him "Daddy" and begging for more. But I digress...

 

Back to the issue, I'm just going to hire him as a masseur at his studio in the next couple of weeks, and when we're done, I'll casually ask him he wants to grab a beer later. If he says no or makes up an excuse why he can't, I'll drop it and just leave at that. And maybe he'll say yes.

 

I appreciate you guys worrying about my closeted status, but I live in Dallas, so it's not so small town that I'm worried about being outed by being seen with another guy at a bar or restaurant. I'll just make sure we're not in an Oak Lawn bar, but there are plenty of great spots not far away that aren't exclusively gay. I've eaten out with escorts before (even recognizable ones like Tony Cummings)and haven't really had to worry about it.

 

Finally Rick, I don't want to turn this thread into an in/out closet discussion, but my main issues about staying in the closet relate to my religious upbringing and much of my family and social circle. I've lived most of my life in the "Bible belt" in a conservative Christian environment that doesn't lend itself to being gay. So far, the urge to be with other guys openly hasn't been strong enough to risk a rift between me and my family and many of my friends. And I KNOW that many of you are going to tell me that it won't be as bad as I think (I've read those threads before about how happy people are when they come out), but it is my decision and at this point I'm not ready. I'm really not miserable about it--honest! Who knows, it could be that really falling in love with another guy like my massuer-crushee would make that difference, but that's many bridges down the road.

 

Bottom line, the infatuation with my massuer might be juvenile, but (1) I do feel like something is clicking there, and (2) he IS gorgeous and nice and intelligent and all kinds of good things. I'll take the low key approach and tell you guys later what happens. I DO think I need to wait a couple of weeks though. I think calling for another massage in less than a weeks time is a bit too stalkerish--and that's not me, despite my ravings here.

 

Thanks again you guys. Sorry this post is so long again.:-)

[Rick Munroe]

>So far, the urge to

>be with other guys openly hasn't been strong enough to risk

>a rift between me and my family and many of my friends. And

>I KNOW that many of you are going to tell me that it won't

>be as bad as I think

 

Actually, I wasn't going to say that. The bottom line is that those people you call your friends don't know you and therefore really aren't your friends. They're friends with that person you pretend to be. As for family, well...when I was a teen and told my parents I was gay, my attitude was, "If you don't accept this, I'll disown you."

 

Btw, I wonder how many of your friends and family are gay, too. If they don't know about you, imagine the things you don't know about them.

[Guest SeaGuy]

Good for you scud, I think you're making the right decision and am pretty sure you'll get your "date" with dessert at his place to follow. Before you know it you'll be getting lots of free booty and take a leave of absence from the escort scene, not strictly enforced of course, paying for it has great advantages. Good luck.;-)