ARE MOST GYM GUYS SHY IN THE LOCKER ROOM?

[trilingual]

I don't mean this as a "racial" slur, but this really seems to be an American problem. (I've seen some other articles, similar to the one that apparently appeared in Philadelphia, about this creeping/creepy American male phobia about being seen naked by other guys.) It really contrasts with attitudes in most other countries I've visited where people in general just aren't that self-conscious about their own bodies. I can just imagine these shrinking violets dealing with mixed nude swimming nights at a public pool in Berlin, or nude sunbathing at a FKK area in a public park or beach in Germany. I'm sure this also has something to do with the American fashion passion for baggy, non-revealing pants and bathing suits.

 

This would almost be funny if it weren't so sad and unhealthy. This is just a sign of something else that seems to have gone seriously wrong in this country. I'm not sure of the cause, but in part I'd bet it's homophobia, and in part I'd bet it may have been generated by the overall anti-sexual atmosphere whipped up during the early years of the AIDS plague. But there are probably other factors at work, including the growing conservatism of American society, the influence of the Falwells and Helmses, the fears of school boards about suits over possible sexual abuse, and on and on and on. . .

 

Maybe I'm having a bad night, but did somebody notice when fun was banned in America?

[taylorky]

pfffffffffffffttttttt why is everybody so concerned with other peoples behavior....maybe some of us (as i posted earlier)would rather choose who see's us naked........jeeeeeeeeeessshhhh

[Will]

I agree with you, Trilingual. Europeans -- I'm not talking about Britons -- in general are just not self-conscious about their bodies. Not, at least, the way Americans are. Go to any beach, whether on the Atlantic or the Mediterranean, and you'll see acres of flesh hanging out there for all to see that would have been covered up -- or not even present -- on American beaches. Along with this lack of self-consciousness goes an indifference to what other people look like. I strongly suspect that one reason for Americans' shyness is their fear of ridicule, of not "measuring up," of looking stupid or dumb or old or fat. It's a form of self-centeredness, even narcissism, that does seem to be particularly, if not uniquely, North American. I understand from friends who've been there that attitudes towards the body in Latin American countries are much as they are in Europe: live and let live. Better: have fun and let have fun.

[phage]

>I don't mean this as a "racial" slur, but this really seems

>to be an American problem.

 

And why exactly is it a problem? Other than the fact that it fails to satisfy someone else’s prurient interest in seeing a naked man, why is modesty a problem?

 

If a guy is uncomfortable being nude in front of his significant other…that’s a problem. But just because he doesn’t like it flapping in the wind in front of a bunch of old guys – who may or may not be getting a cheap thrill – doesn’t indicate a phobia to me. (Since it’s only a phobia if it is an irrational fear.)

 

I know that all things non-American are considered vastly superior, more refined, and more advanced, but I actually think it’s kind of cute.

[Guest sniper]

I've seen guys who very meticulously strip to their underwear, wipe off their sweat with paper towels, and put on clean clotehs over their sweaty underwear. They wind up drawing far more attention to themselves than if they just took a damn shower.

[Rick Munroe]

>pfffffffffffffttttttt why is everybody so concerned

 

Because we're horny gay men. Sheesh!

[trilingual]

>I know that all things non-American are considered vastly

>superior, more refined, and more advanced, but I actually

>think it’s kind of cute.

 

Well, we're all entitled to our opinions, but mine is that this isn't cute. It's sad and pathetic, and maybe even kind of sick. At the very least it's the tip of the iceberg of a new Victorianism. What do you suppose these guys are going to teach their kids about their own bodies and self-esteem? And about gays?

[jack]

Its wonderful to travel in Oslo, Norway, where the most popular public park for families to gather to sun and picnic displays numerous (like more than seventy five) stone statues of a man holding a teenage boy in various poses. Its also where Norway's Olypmic symbol of four men holding up a huge birdbath is located. But I didn't see anybody faint or parents or young people pay any more attention to the statues (some obviously showing the kid's dick flopping around) than the matter of fact, normal attention that they did get. Then, in Bergen, in the center of their downtown center is a magnificant stone, copper, water fall statue in the center of the plaza which has four tall, thin, lankie, hung, with some pubic hair, teenage boys shoulder to shoulder in bronze: right there in the middle of town. Easy, because its a part of life. Its normal. People, nude. Boys nude. Same thing in Helsinki. We Americans do have our problems with life. That may also be why Montreal is so stunning with places like Taboo with young guys nude, etc. I do agree this subject reflects cultural differences, attitudes, and philolsophies in the world. (P.S. Down by the pier in Oslo, there were hundreds of Norweigan guys with those thin lips, blue eyes, 30" waste lines, long fingers on bonie wrists, and size fouteen Niki's) :-)

[jack]

For guys to not take showers because . . . or to take showers in their underwear is sad, pathetic, and really, sick. It says how they feel as a human being among other human beings. There are some guys who are inhibited or shy or perplexed or unsure or unsafe about being nude for a male masseus. Sad. Closing down showers in high schools is terrible and stupid. Then, if a guy doesn't get into the military, he winds up not ever being comfortable with his body being nude with other people. That is sad. Say what you want, but the swim class at prep school was all nude. Testi at first. But we got used to being nude with twenty or twenty five other guys walking around the pool (Stroke Hard, Finish Fast). No big shucks although I do remember some real nice guys with nice bodies and nice packages -- stimulating. Same at college. Americans need help with their bodies and comfort level with their accepting their position in humanity. We should feel normal nude and enjoy it: like most of the rest of the world does.

[phage]

>Well, we're all entitled to our opinions, but mine is that

>this isn't cute. It's sad and pathetic, and maybe even kind

>of sick. At the very least it's the tip of the iceberg of a

>new Victorianism.

 

I’m not trying to be antagonistic, (okay, maybe a little) but nobody has given any kind of good reason on why this is sad or sick other than Rick’s dead-on response that we are horny gay men. I understand completely why we want to see them naked, but I also understand why they wouldn’t.

 

I doubt that most gay men would be comfortable being nude around a group of women. (Yes, I know they do it in many parts of the world, but I didn’t grow up there and have no particular desire to emulate the European or Japanese philosophy any more than I would want to go the other way to Muslim modesty.) Why should it be any different in an environment filled with homosexuals?

 

>What do you suppose these guys are going

>to teach their kids about their own bodies and self-esteem?

>And about gays?

 

Probably the truth as confirmed by most of the opinions in this thread. That there are men out there who will take a sexual interest in your body. Because they are the same sex, it is likely that you will be in fairly intimate situations from time to time. If you don’t want to give them a cheap thrill, it is probably best to be discreet about the family jewels.

[duke37]

I have to agree with phage.

 

I think what taylor said in this thread is pretty relevant and most people haven't responded to it. He said (I'm paraphrasing) that he was comfortable being naked but preferred to share it with people he chose not just everyone at a gym. Perhaps (and I'm just speculating) our culture has gotten so sexualized that people instinctively feel the need to cloak themselves in modesty as a self-defense mechanism. We are bombarded almost constantly with sexualized imagery or content with a sexualized subtext in about every part of public space. Movies, television and the expectations of popular culture are highly charged with sex. Perhaps more so than in the past? Maybe the current level of modesty is a reaction to that.

 

And of course we have the same media beating the drumbeat of how we are all supposed to look. Plenty of evidence to show the growing problem of body image disorders in young men. And it makes perfect sense when you know that the vast majority of people are not going to EVER look like the ideas put out in the media.

 

And as for the comparison to other cultures. Let me throw some kerosene on the fire. Maybe thats why we are where we are and they are where they are. Perhaps these traits you admire in other cultures holds them back from achieving what we have in the United States. I am very willing to acknowledge the role of culture in making Europe and South America the great places they are. Maybe our "puritanical" "neo-Victorian" culture has contributed to our success and distinctiveness.

 

Jeff

[+ Axiom2001]

Oooooooohhhhhhhhhh, Papi, your thoughts are right on the money! They're completely valid, for I have been a teacher of English for some years. In the past the young men and women in my classes did take showers after being in their p.e. classes; today, and I think for the past decade, they HAVE NOT. The schools no longer provide towel service, etc. (I've gotten on my kiddies if they've came to my classes smelling funky...)

 

If kids in this country are brought up in this Puritanical country embracing their bodies, nudity and a healthy education regarding sex and sexuality-- perhaps the problem would be resolved. An escort from Hungary whom I saw over two months ago and I had this very excellent conversation about this very issue.

 

Unfortunately, as of today, I have problems being nude in a group setting, and I have taken showers while in p.e., (but I was the towel boy and took my showers privately.) I also have gone to the baths (when they were in SF); I've been to the saunas while in Amsterdam, Spain, France, and Australia, but you know what, I did not have nude phobia while in these venues.

 

I used to go to the gym to workout. I can't remember what I did, but I do remember that when I saw some of those hot bods, I just looked. Some of the straight8 bois would become a little paranoid, but I did not care-- I got some views that were delightful. (I HOPE I addressed the thread, properly!)

[Guest lipstick]

Whoa! What started out as a light-weight, semi salacious thread has turned into a deep-down psychological, social meditation on self-image, right to select and choose, and privacy issues!

 

Lemme throw this out. When I first HAD TO strip naked in front of other guys, it was back in Junior High (Middle)school, when I was about 12 years old. Now I had never been naked in front of other guys my age before, other than when I was a child in front of my parents, during bath times, etc. So when I had to do it, I felt a lot of shame and all the other baggage that some kids with low esteem

have when they go through these rituals of school, etc. Added to the family "culture" of total privacy, I was also a fat kid. It took me a while to get comfortable with my body and to accept it for what is was at the time, so that gym period (into High School, then into College)eventually was never as stressful an ordeal as it was during those first few years.

 

I am now 49 yo, and when I think about it, I had again avoided the gym environment and culture for the longest time when I should have started working out and keeping in some semblance of acceptable health by getting into a cardio program, etc. Looking back a bit, I believe it was again the intimidation of the gym culture and the perceived disdain that I assumed people (young people) would have for a middle-aged, past-it guy like me, that prevented me from ever starting to get into a workout regiment, least of all joining a fitness club in the Bay Area.

 

Part of my rehab, as it were, started when I was invited by a friend to join him as he worked out, when we were on a 4 day getaway in Monterey. This was at a Gold's Gym location, where if you talk about hardcore weight-training for both health and show, then I was at the wrong place at the wrong time. Talk about intimidation! But as I forced myself to go through the workout stations and trying to figure out how to use this and that contraption, I then begin to realize that most of the folks there didn't give a rat's ass about how old or out of shape you were, but that everyone was there for whatever their reason or particular goal was, whether it was for cardio, looking good or plain narcissm. And I also noticed that on the "other side" of the gym (away from the free weights), there were all shapes and sizes of men and women, some just starting out on a program, some halfway there, some still struggling, whatever. And I don't think they cared how they or you looked, 'cause they were busy on focusing on their programs, thank you.

 

It was this experience and realization for me that allowed me to eventually have the balls to join a club and to make a plan for myself to take off some of that weight than I've been kidding myself all these years to lose "when circumstances permit", and to lowering the high-risk cholesterol levels that I had been building up for a while.

 

Now when it comes to oogling and being oogled, I feel this way about it. I do oogle. I am a faggot, after all. Am I out to hit up on these hunky guys? Hell no..... There are rules of behavior that I follow. It is generally understood (and mandated by club policy) that a locker room (and any other part of the entire facility) is not a place to make a hit on anybody. In that sense, the locker room is more "neutral ground" than a bar or nightclub would be. Do I, a chubby 49 yo, ever feel that I'm being oogled from time to time? I suppose so. Does it bother me? A little bit. When I first started at the club, I too skipped the showers, though I've never been the type to cover up 100% of the time. But when I did cover up, that was more to hide my pot belly from these worked out 20-30 yo somethings, than from any concern with being oogled. But then I realized and said to myself: "Why the hell am I continuing to wear these sweaty clothes? What the hell am I embarassed or concerned with?" Am I to be intimidated into what I think other guys are thinking about my out of shape appearence, or what they may be doing in their heads, i.e, oogling?

 

For MYSELF ('cause all our experiences are gonna be different), I couldn't come up with a good reason to continue to skip the shower part, nor to cover up each time I was about to pull down my shorts. 'Cause if anyone WAS foolish enough to hit up on me (and I would be pleasantly surprised and flattered if they did, believe me!!), all I would have to do is to say: "No, thanks."

 

And for me, that gives me all the power and confidence in the world that I'll ever need: the ability to say "No" (or even "Yes").

 

Thanks!

 

[taylorky]

PHAGE and DUKE37 thank you for recognizing the RIGHT of people to be who they are without being vilified.........to trilingual and jack..true some people are pathetic and sad;and y'all fit that description well.if you choose to troll around public places looking for cheap thrills so be it .nothing i can do about that.but don't expect people like me to help you in your sick little fantasy's....do i like looking at cute naked guy's ..................of course i do i'm gay and breathing.but i don't expect them to strip so i can see .and i don't dump on them when they don't.........damn grow up already......

[Guest ortrud45]

Duke37:

 

I read the contents of your first two paragraphs with great interest.

 

But what you state in the last one I find rather farfetched and in the

context with the original topic "are most gym guys shy in the locker room?" on the verge of being ridiculous!}>

 

Albeit being patriotic is okay for you, for me, for everyone!:*

 

Best regards ortrud 45

[Rick Munroe]

>trilingual and jack..true some people are pathetic and

>sad;and y'all fit that description well.

 

Hey, they weren't personally attacking you (or anyone else; they were stating their opinions). Speaking of vilifying...why are you doing it to them?

 

>don't expect people like

>me to help you in your sick little fantasy's

 

You're being more judgmental here than anyone else in the whole thread. Ease up, y'all.

[Guest Thunderbuns]

>You're being more judgmental here than anyone else in the

>whole thread. Ease up, y'all.

 

Thanks for saying what needed to be said Rick.

 

For a self-proclaimed 19 year old hillbilly,(if one is to believe his profile), Taylor has a really big mouth. He's quick to criticize others for expressing their opinions and downright rude in the names he chooses to call them.

 

He however, seems to feel that he can say what ever pops into his head, with impunity. So typical of the youth of today who think they know it all due to their vast wealth of experience.

 

As he is a recent member to this board, one is almost inclined to think Ethan has rejoined us with a new identity. :0(

 

Thunderbuns

[trilingual]

>And as for the comparison to other cultures. Let me throw

>some kerosene on the fire. Maybe thats why we are where we

>are and they are where they are. Perhaps these traits you

>admire in other cultures holds them back from achieving what

>we have in the United States. I am very willing to

>acknowledge the role of culture in making Europe and South

>America the great places they are. Maybe our "puritanical"

>"neo-Victorian" culture has contributed to our success and

>distinctiveness.

 

Surely you can't be serious? First of all, this "puritanical" "neo-Victorian" culture is pretty recent. And it has more or less coincided with America's success and distinction in achieving a massively corrupt corporate society, an unelected government, a culture of selfishness and greed. . .

 

As for some of the other comments around here, like wanting to appear naked among women, or whatever, I must say the first time I was taken by friends to the mixed "free" swimming night at the pool in Berlin I was a bit taken aback, as it was a "first," but that wore off in all of about five minutes. And I'm 56, overweight, and not exactly the owner of a body most American gym bunnies would be anxious to show off. But in other countries, it just isn't a big deal. Bodies are just bodies. They come in all shapes and sizes, and people take them for granted. So did I after a few minutes. And swimming nude felt much nicer than using trunks. Plus there were at least a couple of hot guys to admire (and who clearly didn't mind being admired) between laps! For my taste, I prefer that approach to life, and not the uptight, anal one (and I don't mean anal in the nicest possible way. . .)

[Guest IndyEric]

This topic piqued my curiosity.

 

I'm a college professor, and one thing I've noticed is that when I started teaching 14 years ago, I would see a number of students taking showers, in the sauna in the locker room, etc., when I was changing there before or after working out. (And I'll have to say, it was definitely a nice fringe benefit!)

 

Not any more! Now I almost never see a student using the showers or the sauna. The sauna is in the locker room, so it's men only (the women have their own). While faculty/staff guys use it a lot, and almost all of us do so completely naked, when I see a student in there--maybe once or twice a semester--he is wearing either a swim suit or a towel wrapped securely around his waist.

 

After a phys. ed. class, the students either go back to their dorm to change or they just go to class in their gym clothers. I've seen some guys come into the locker room and just put on a dry shirt if they are pretty sweaty. I never see a student shower after phys. ed. or working out.

 

That's how they are growing up now. My son is almost 14 and just entering 8th grade. He says that no one in his gym classes has ever taken a shower during the two years of middle school just completed.

 

I did some Google research on this phenomenon. Schools are much more sensitive to factors that cause emotional stress to students, and the requirement to become naked and shower was one such thing. Not only is virtually everyone uncomfortable with it at first, but many students, especially kids with body issues and something teasable about their bodies (i.e., fat, small penis, etc.) found the experience really traumatic.

 

Plus there is the general privacy issue. There are much higher standards regarding student privacy in many areas, including their bodies. I can't talk to a student's parents about his or her progress without their permission, for example. Regarding bodies, the culture that kids grow up in now is one in which there is much more talk from an early age about keeping private parts private, not doing anything that makes you emotionally uncomfortable, etc. In today's climate, a school system could be sucessfully sued for causing a child emotional distress by forcing him or her to shower in front of others.

 

Teenage boys have a tremendous fear of getting an erection in the locker room or showers, too. That's what was most traumatic for me when I was in middle and high school. Then everyone would know I really was a "fag" and my life would be even more miserable.

 

The sexualization of everything in the popular media (including shows aimed at pree-teen kids) also adds to the pressure, as does the wider cultural acceptance of the fact that there are gay people everywhere, and even a "staight-acting" class or teammate may be looking at you sexually.

 

So as they grow up now, kids have almost no experience with, or images of, non-sexual nudity, which is what happens in locker rooms and showers, even in most gay baths. It's no wonder that by the time they reach college, or are young adults using health clubs, young guys are still very shy about changing and showering even in front of other guys.

 

Guys over 30 seem much more comfortable being naked around each other. I think it has to do not only with our earlier experiences, but also with the fact that by that age guys are more comfortable with their sexuality, and most of us no longer entertain illusions that people are going to be looking at us as (potential) sexual objects! Not many of us middle-aged guys with bellies are worried that someone else in the showers is staring longingly at our bodies.

[Guest Thunderbuns]

>I can't talk to a student's parents about his or her progress >without their permission, for example.

 

Wow - how wierd is that! What ever happened to free speach. As the parents are usually the ones footing the bills for the education, they must feel like the equivilant of eunuchs if they have to get their kids permission to talk to you.

 

What will it be like 50 years from now? - one shudders to think.

 

Thunderbuns

[taylorky]

whoa a reasoned and thoughtful post.you sir are a rarity on this board;some of the other posters are upset because they can't get a cheap thrill. and go so far as to call those of us who choose not to parade around naked as being "sad and pathetic". in an earlier post i made my opinion known as to who i think falls into the sad and pathetic group and feel no need to revisit that.and so even though i disagree with some of your reasoning i do respect your thoughtful opinions.my reasons for not "choosing"to display my naked body to just anybody is one of personnel choice.i am not fat, LOL could use a few pounds,although the size of my dick is nobodys business it is far from small.i mention the previous two as a way to refute your thesis that those are the two reasons people (kids) don't like being naked.for as long as i can remember i nor any of my friends have had a problem with nudity.quite the opposite we ENJOY being nude.BUT only with people we choose.again sir thanks for your reasoned post

[Guest lipstick]

IndyEric,

 

Thanks for putting some perspective on this subject, from one who is a part of the school system.

 

This subject is apparently quite sensitive for some folks. The common observation on many of the posts is that certain guys over a certain age don't have the same concerns with being butt naked in front of other guys. Makes me wonder how most of us made it through Junior High and High School!!!

 

I have one other question though for folks. I have seen in tapes of military locker rooms (there are several hidden locker room videos put out by ANGRYYOUNGMAN.COM)a level of acceptance about being naked in front of others that belies the attitudes that young guys in the "civilian" mainstream have. Now these military guys are also young. Why are the attitudes of young folks in the military life different from the young folks in civilian life? There has got to be about the same percentage of Gay guys in the military as there is in civilian life, right?

 

So why aren't these military guys (if we are to believe the hidden locker room tapes) as demure in the locker room as the civilians are?

(if anything, it's the complete opposite: some of it borders on fratboy antics.)

 

More than once some of the posts implicitly refer to older guys who might be getting there rocks off by oogling. Is the implication here that some guys don't MIND being oogled if the oogler is a young stud versus an old troll? Or that there are no Gay guys in the military?

Are some guys just not comfortable being naked in the company of older guys, or in "mixed" company (whatever the hell that is..)?

 

The mind reels at the implications.....

 

[Bastian]

>I have one other question though for folks. I have seen in tapes of >military locker rooms (there are several hidden locker room videos >put out by ANGRYYOUNGMAN.COM)a level of acceptance about being naked >in front of others that belies the attitudes that young guys in >the "civilian" mainstream have. Now these military guys are also >young. Why are the attitudes of young folks in the military life >different from the young folks in civilian life? There has got to be >about the same percentage of Gay guys in the military as there is in >civilian life, right?

 

I think it may have to do with upbringing. Being from a military family myself, hygeine was always one more 'duty' to perform. As a boy I could get extremely dirty and love it (not that I can't as an adult). Right in the middle of my Mud Nirvana I'd hear, "You're filthy. Bathe.", and it was NOT a discussion. It certainly carried over into school, as after practice I'd be the ONLY one in the showers (except for the coaches, if you want the story write me ).

 

It's sort of funny, the men in the gym who are so worried about homos checking them out have no clue as to how uninterested this homo is in the activity, I mean I never sprung an erection during any other chores. Makes me wonder how many other gay nudist types have emerged from military influence!

 

B

[phage]

>So why aren't these military guys (if we are to believe the

>hidden locker room tapes) as demure in the locker room as

>the civilians are?

>(if anything, it's the complete opposite: some of it borders

>on fratboy antics.)

 

It’s really pretty simple. I was in the Air Force (arguably the most civilized branch of the service so I imagine it’s worse in the others) and we had group showers during basic training. You are thrown into the situation from the first day you arrive, and with drill instructors screaming non-stop for you to get out of your clothes and under that water, there is very little time to think about your modesty. By the time the screaming lets up a couple of weeks later, you are used to it all.

 

I tried not to look…honest I did. But even under the stress of basic training, I was constantly maneuvering to be in the showers at the same time as a particularly beautiful guy from West Virginia. What I wouldn’t have given for a little fratboy antics with that boy!

[+ Hoover42]

>So why aren't these military guys (if we are to believe the

>hidden locker room tapes) as demure in the locker room as

>the civilians are?

 

I'm sure at least part of the reason is that the guys are required to shower together during basic training; wallflowers quickly become the target of ridicule.