Overpaying (Reprised) - PLEASE DON'T!

[Guest Deweywop]

I finally delved into this thread only after half of it was deleted. I'm grateful. Too much hot air.

 

I frankly don't understand Ad rian's argument:

 

>I often wonder whether my waiters and waitresses in New York

>don't think the same thing when they get a 20% tip? The

>bottom line is that there is simply no justification to pay a

>10% or 20% tip here but not there.

 

Gee, a 10-20% tip on a 50 reais sauna boy comes to 5-10 reais, within what most on this thread say is reasonable. So what's your disagreement? People were criticizing foolish, outrageous, I would say arrogant overtipping, not 5-10 reais.

 

But there's another problem with your argument. "Here" is *not* "there." If you travel as much as you say, you should understand that the first rule of travel is to respect local customs. That's all everyone is saying on this thread. Turn your argument around. If someone is from a country where it is considered condescending to tip a server, should that person stiff a waiter in New York? He/she might if they did not know better, but I would certainly inform them that "things are different here."

 

>If

>not, you are just plain cheap. All other rationalizations and

>explanations could equally apply here: - "Don't spoil the

>natives, or they might revolt!" How revolting!!

 

I probably am just plain cheap. I'm pretty "revolted" at how the US has turned into a baksheesh culture where everyone and everything has a tip jar or palm out. I'm probably dumb for not learning all the different rules, newly invented every day, for how much to tip whom, what to leave for a $12 haircut, what to leave for a $50 one. If another culture wisely does without all this, it would be arrogant intervention for you to change their culture, just because you think Brazilians should be treated like New Yorkers.

 

Perhaps your sentiment springs from well-grounded sympathy for "the natives." But things are often not that simple, and apparent cold-heartedness sometimes makes more sense. It's hard not to be moved by poor children in the Andes asking for candy. But are you going to be around to provide them affordable dental care after the unaccustomed chocolate rots their teeth? Is it prettier to watch 5 kids fight over the piece of gum you handed one of them? You may think this is all rationalization (it's not -- obviously few of us worry about parting with a piece of gum or 50 reais), but these are the messy issues you don't deal with in your simplistic sentiments. There are far better ways to help the natives, if you are so inclined.

[ad rian]

>But there's another problem with your argument. "Here" is

>*not* "there." If you travel as much as you say, you should

>understand that the first rule of travel is to respect local

>customs. That's all everyone is saying on this thread. Turn

>your argument around. If someone is from a country where it

>is considered condescending to tip a server, should that

>person stiff a waiter in New York? He/she might if they did

>not know better, but I would certainly inform them that

>"things are different here."

 

Well, the problem with your "here is here" and "there is there" local context argument is where does it stop? Is it ok to defer to local customs on tipping, but not on barebacking and age of consent? Where do you draw the line?

[handyandy]

At any rate,

>reading the past threads on the subject, it seems that your

>hypocritical self-righteous "altruism" has been well exposed

>for all the Board to see. I just love your consistency. With

>Bruno, your avice to him was gouge the Gringos, you did not

>seem to do a dynamic economic analysis in that case. But

>where it suits you, you feign all this concern for the poor

>local clients and escorts in Brazil and Argentina.

 

It seems to me that Trilingual's advice is quite consistent: pay, or expect to be charged, the going rate for where you are. We live in a market economy and we (or at least most of us) subscribe to the theory that the free market regulates prices most efficiently. (Some well-known attempts in the 20th century at applying some other methods of establishing prices have recently crashed and burned, as you may remember, and those economies have spent the last 10-plus years trying to convert to the market system.) Don't expect Bruno to charge Brazilian sauna prices in New York (he doesn't charge such low prices in Brazil either!), and don't disturb the local economy in Brazil by inflating prices there.

 

That's eminently reasonable, and applies to everything, not just escorts. If you are from Smallsville USA visiting The Big City and you go out to eat in a fancy restaurant, you don't expect the meal to cost only $23 including tax and tip just because that's what it would cost in the most expensive restaurant in Smallsville. And by the same token, if you are from The Big City visiting Smallsville USA and go out for a meal, you don't double or triple the amount of the check just because "I'm accustomed to paying more at home." When you are driving across country and you fill up with cheap(er) gas in Georgia or some other such state, you don't leave an extra 20-30 cents/gallon at the station because "in my state, or in the next state, it costs more." In fact, quite the opposite behavior is observed: Massachusetts residents deliberately go to New Hampshire to buy liquor, residents of many states living near the border cross over into another state to buy gasoline, cigarettes (ugh!), or other items, where it's cheaper. The prices have been established in those other jurisdictions, through lower taxes or otherwise, and they work for that state, and you don't even think of overriding them.

 

>Of course, if the escorts are paid more, they might have mre

>money to support themselves and their family.

 

That's true. But don't forget that you are there for a week or two and hire the guy once or twice, and then you go away with all your money. But the long-term result of disturbing the economy in that way will be that you will make it harder for the Brazilian Joe Average to hire the guy. And Joe is there all the time, not just for two weeks, and he hires the guy a few times a month every month (the guy is going to have rent to pay in February, too, not just in January), and there are a lot more of Joe that the guys are depending on for their income than there are of you.

 

I've been in a lot of different countries, and on all the (inhabited) continents, and one thing that you find everywhere, in Western Europe or Australia, in the Soviet bloc both before and after, in the Third World, etc., is resentment over the way (many) Americans throw their money around, think that they should get special treatment because of it, often show little respect for local customs and culture and little concern for violating them, etc. Paying R$100 for a service that normally costs R$50 is just one example of that.

[handyandy]

The

>bottom line is that there is simply no justification to pay a

>10% or 20% tip here but not there. Or if you tip $50 on a

>$250.00 call here, then a similar tip there is justified. If

>not, you are just plain cheap. All other rationalizations and

>explanations could equally apply here: - "Don't spoil the

>natives, or they might revolt!" How revolting!!

 

ad rian, are you among the mathematically-challenged? Or maybe among the literacy-challenged?

 

The standard sauna price is R$50. 10% of R$50 is R$5. 20% of R$50 is R$10. If a client is going to tip, a tip of R$5-10 is exactly what has been recommended in these threads many times, by trilingual and by others. This thread is not about "tipping" and is not saying "don't tip". It is about OVERtipping, or, more precisely, OVERPAYING. Read the title of the thread and the posts. It and its predecessor threads are about Americans and Canadians paying R$100 instead of R$50 in Brazil. It is about someone who paid 300 pesos instead of the requested 150 pesos in Argentina. Go back and read trilingual's original post, where he mentions that example explicitly. That's not 10% or 20%. That's 100%.

 

Now, of course, the subject of tipping in general has come up here in other forums many times, and has been discussed to death. And there are many clients who don't tip here either. So it's possible that someone who doesn't tip here would carry that practice over and not tip there either. He's just being consistent.

 

And, by the way, a tip of "$50 on a $250.00 call" IS 20%.

[Guest Deweywop]

>Well, the problem with your "here is here" and "there is

>there" local context argument is where does it stop? Is it ok

>to defer to local customs on tipping, but not on barebacking

>and age of consent? Where do you draw the line?

 

You point out something important. The line is hard to draw. For me, preventing AIDS is so categorically and undebatably right that there is no cultural relativism there. Local customs might mean in some countries people are lazy or uninformed about safe sex, but anyone who has even the slightest inkling should know that he SHOULD have safe sex. Paying for something, however is not categorical or absolute. There is no absolute rule that a candy bar should be worth $1 or 75 cents or 40 p or 1.5 reais or whatever. You do what the local context does. If one goes around flinging $10 bills for a candy bar in New York, one would be viewed as dumb, show-off, or arrogant.

 

As for age of consent that's a can of worms I probably don't have the energy to get into. But i think your concern about age of consent matches my concern about "overpaying." In both cases, the main problem is that foreigners are coming in and distorting the local environment. Speaking apart from sex, I've met Czechs who told me they can no longer visit Prague b/c it has gotten too expensive for them. Tourist inflation is an issue in many places and while somewhat inevitable the more it can be prevented the better for everybody.

 

And yes, if 10 million northern gay men start hitting Brazil for fantastic and economical sex, that would be a distortion too. Hopefully we're discussing among a select, intimate club here. When it gets too big, I'd be one wander away quietly.

[handyandy]

>Well, the problem with your "here is here" and "there is

>there" local context argument is where does it stop? Is it ok

>to defer to local customs on tipping, but not on barebacking

>and age of consent? Where do you draw the line?

 

That’s why some of us are adults who think for themselves. So that we can decide for ourselves where to draw the line, instead of being forced into a one-size-fits-all mold or falling back on the falsely comforting and often inappropriate "just do it the way you do at home." Not all things are of equal weight, and not all things involve the same considerations. Age of consent is a legal matter; you can be arrested for violating it, but not for barebacking or tipping practices; if the local age of consent is lower than you feel is appropriate, you are not required to go that young. Barebacking is a health matter; it can give you a serious illness, and is more likely to be regulated by your own caution than by local "customs;" here again, even if local customs "allow" barebacking, you are not required to do it. Tipping is a custom and a discretionary matter, and you *should* be guided by local custom. That applies to tipping in general - waiters, taxi drivers, etc., not just to escorts. A very small amount of thought will tell you that these things are not all in the same category and are not all to be treated alike, and that deferring to local custom in some areas does not mean that you must do the same all areas.

[ad rian]

>That’s why some of us are adults who think for themselves.

>So that we can decide for ourselves where to draw the line,

>instead of being forced into a one-size-fits-all mold or

>falling back on the falsely comforting and often inappropriate

>"just do it the way you do at home." Not all things are of

>equal weight, and not all things involve the same

>considerations.

....

> A very small amount of thought will tell you that these

>things are not all in the same category and are not all to be

>treated alike, and that deferring to local custom in some

>areas does not mean that you must do the same all areas.

 

Having travelled widely in Asia, Africa and South America, I don't share your confidence about this. What I see is that those who exploit on "discretionary" grounds often have a wide defintion of discretion. As I said before, just follow the Lufthansa flights, if you have any doubt about this!

[straightshooter]

we brazilian studs will continue to guage as much as we can from the foreigners. we know we have a great product, and ultimately the bargaining power. don't try & cheat us, or we'll be forced to deny what you really need. don't try & tell us that we don't deserve every penny either, with what we have to put up.

 

ironically, it's tri's altruistic comments to his fellow americans that have ruined the party for this same group. it is their in particular objectionable and galling behaviour that has spurred us to action. thanks for the wake up call.

[+ Axiom2001]

When is it going to STOP? Have all viewpoints been voiced to DEATH?

Apparently, not! Here it is almost the middle of December, and the discussion or debate continues!

[trilingual]

RE: The Thread That Will Not Die?

 

>When is it going to STOP?

 

Evidently it'll go on as long as "Auntie Semitic" and her ilk (under all their various nicknames) get a rise out of readers here.

 

Pardon my skepticism, but "straightshooter" sounds remarkably un-Brazilian, starting with his nickname. I'm sure sorry, though, that in getting this forum rolling I provided a platform for so much crap. No good deed goes unpunished, they say. . .

[ad rian]

RE: The Thread That Will Not Die?

 

>Pardon my skepticism, but "straightshooter" sounds remarkably

>un-Brazilian, starting with his nickname. I'm sure sorry,

>though, that in getting this forum rolling I provided a

>platform for so much crap. No good deed goes unpunished,

>they say. . .

 

I don't know whether or not he is actually Brazilian, but I note that one real Brazilian shared my perspective that you are just an exploiter. The only thing worse than that is a self-righteous indignant exploiter. If you don't want to smell the crap, get out of the crapper!

[Guest Deweywop]

RE: The Thread That Will Not Die?

 

I too had my doubts about straightshooter: the particularly American misspelling of "gouge" and the "try and ____" constructions. Anyway, with regard to "exploitation," there are those who say that any kind of prostitution is exploitation. I think those of us on this board have made our peace or settled our minds about that. Outbidding the Brazilian clients by paying Brazilian escorts American rates will not make something less exploitative, if one's of that mind.

[ad rian]

RE: The Thread That Will Not Die?

 

>I think those of us on this board have made our

>peace or settled our minds about that. Outbidding the

>Brazilian clients by paying Brazilian escorts American rates

>will not make something less exploitative, if one's of that

>mind.

 

I don't think that all prostitution is exploitative, but I do think paying people less in Brazil is exploitative, and probably where one finds that kind of "eco-tourism" one probably also finds foreigners insisting on barebacking generally and fucking under age minors in particular. I have not made peace with that yet, although Tri and Axiom and a few others obviously have.

[trilingual]

RE: The Thread That Will Not Die?

 

> I do

>think paying people less in Brazil is exploitative, and

>probably where one finds that kind of "eco-tourism" one

>probably also finds foreigners insisting on barebacking

>generally and fucking under age minors in particular. I have

>not made peace with that yet, although Tri and Axiom and a few

>others obviously have.

 

Less than what? The standard rate? How is paying the going rate exploitative? Any more than paying the equivalent of 40 or 50 cents for bus fare in Brazil for a ride that costs $1.50 in the U.S.? Or a hotel that charges the equivalent of $25 when the same room would be more than $100 in the U.S.?

 

As for foreigners insisting on barebacking or having sex with minors, I suppose such things happen somewhere on this planet. However, I don't do either thing, personally (as Auntie Semitic seems to be trying to imply) and never have. In all of the many posts on this board, I don't recall any visitors to Brazil or Argentina inquiring about or otherwise mentioning barebacking or having sex with minors. For approximately umpteen times I've pointed out that sex with minors in Brazil is illegal and that foreigners, including prominent ones like diplomats, have been arrested for such activity and that Brazil is not a country to visit for those looking for underage sex. How many times do I have to pound Auntie Semitic across the head with that before she notices what I've been saying? Furthermore, I've said repeatedly that using the saunas is a good way for visitors to AVOID underage sex, because the saunas screen the escorts' ID and don't allow minors to work there.

 

As for barebacking, other posters have said that escorts offered to let clients penetrate them without protection, and they (the posters) have all said they declined. The saunas all provide lube and condoms when a "cabine" is rented, so there's no excuse for either party not to use them. Also, I have never heard any of the sauna escorts mention being FORCED by a client to engage in unprotected sex. Anyone familiar with the saunas knows that it's extremely unlikely that any of those guys could be forced into anything they didn't want to do. Any client trying to do that would be facing a very ugly situation very quickly, with a mob of extremely angry and very physically fit fellow escorts ready to take on a transgressor. Brazilians may be some of the most charming and easy-going people on earth, but there are lines that can't be crossed, even in Brazil, and force/rape is certainly among them. So, when all is said and done, linking barebacking and sex with minors to paying the current rate for escorts in Latin America is just a device (and an entirely speculative one at that) to give Auntie Semitic an opportunity to drag this thread on into eternity. . .

[IamI2002]

RE: The Thread That Will Not Die?

 

Looks like you fucked it up for everyone, Auntie TRI. You heard it from the horse's mouth and can't accept it. Well, you can always get a p/t job at 7 11 after you retire and save for the higher prices.

[IamI2002]

RE: The Thread That Will Not Die?

 

And you love it, TRISEXUAL, since it has given you the opportunity to imitate me --- start a flaming thread (as I did when I compared fluffy to Bruno) and have it go on, and on, and on, as fluffy himself remarked with the expletive "PORRA!"

 

Imitation is the best form of flattery.

 

German cars owner -- By the way, did a bit of spec on oil futures and now paid them off.

[ad rian]

RE: The Thread That Will Not Die?

 

>Less than what? The standard rate? How is paying the going

>rate exploitative? Any more than paying the equivalent of 40

>or 50 cents for bus fare in Brazil for a ride that costs $1.50

>in the U.S.? Or a hotel that charges the equivalent of $25

>when the same room would be more than $100 in the U.S.?

 

You started the thread. You framed the issue this time as you have in the past. You have shown yourself to be a defender of exploitation and have justified that in other threads because you are some poor retiring government hack. I don't accept that as a valid excuse to justify tipping at a lower rate when you travel than you do at home. At any rate, a Brazilian escort and lawyer has told you here how he perceives your argument, but you are still so damned self-righteous that you refuse to admit your exploitative tendancies. How pathetic! How predictable! Your blindness invites questions of whether your cheapness has some genetic or cultural root.

 

>As for foreigners insisting on barebacking or having sex with

>minors, I suppose such things happen somewhere on this planet.

> However, I don't do either thing, personally (as Auntie

>Semitic seems to be trying to imply) and never have.

 

Why should we believe you when you have revealed yourself here to be a cultural relativist when it comes to exploitation? The fact that you even express doubt about the barebacking and abuse of minors by eco tourists of your ilk in Asia, Latin America, Africa and Eastern Europe speaks volumes about the extent of your denial and/or complicity.

[Guest Jake]

RE: The Thread That Will Not Die?

 

Daddy, Somebody, Anybody - Isn't there some rule to save us from these obviously intellectually superior, better travelled, ethically perfected citizens who apparently have joined this party late and missed a couple of years of conversation but just have to straighten us all out no matter how much bitchy-twisting it takes?

[trilingual]

RE: The Thread That Will Not Die?

 

Nah, snookums. Ernani, Bruno and I are waiting for the next time you and Auntie Semitic take a trip to Brazil (assuming your creditors will allow you to leave the U.S.) and drop you off for the midnight walking tour of the Via Apia. Who would you guys like us to ship the pieces back to? We can't just feed them to the piranhas in the bay because we don't want them to get sick to their little tummies. . . x(