"Straight" men?

[Guest TexasTaurus]

I just returned from Houston where I saw one hell of a fight between two men. I would like to get some opinions on what you guys think of this.

 

One of the men (about 34 years old and damned good looking) was the "husband" of a 56 year old drag queen. The fight started when a second man accused the 34 year old of being "gay". He said he wasn't and the fight was on.

 

The man, living in a sexual relationship with the drag queen, does not consider himself gay, so what the hell? If you date a drag queen, does it make you gay?

 

I have seen this type of thing more than once here in Dallas, just wondered what any of you thought.

[marc anthony]

By definition, yes. A drag queen is a transvestite, which is a male who dresses like a woman. If you are a male dating another male, you are gay. If the person you are dating is a transexual, then you could say you are not gay, as that person has "officially" changed to becoming a woman. So they can argue, fight, rationalize, whatever. But I'd have to say the hot guy is gay, by the definition of the word.

[Bilbo]

Not by my definition of the word. One might participate in homosexual acts, and might even be homosexual as opposed to bi, but one is not gay until one has accepted himself and views his sexual activity as being correct for himself and is proud of himself.

[Guest CZ]

RE:

 

Every time this topic comes up, I throw in the same two cents. As I recall, no one has ever seen any merit in what I've said. On the other hand (and more significantly, perhaps), no one has ever shown me why it isn't a perfectly reasonable way of answering the question. For what it's worth, here it is again.

 

If you can tell me (truthfully) what a guy looks at and/or thinks about when he's jerking off, I'm pretty sure I can tell you whether he's gay or straight.

 

That's it. No labels, no depth-analysis, no discussions of role-playing, no sociocultural theorizing. . .

[marc anthony]

We'll have to disagree on that one, Bilbo. Being gay is a sexual orientation. Can't say I believe that one's acceptance of it or pride about it have anything to do with whether or not one is actually attracted to the same gender. There are many gay men who are confused, married, closeted but very much attracted to other men.

[Guest]

The guy is gayer than a fruitcake, and nuttier (and more mixed up) than a Halloween sack full of Payday bars, Almond Joy, Peanutty Butterfingers, Reece's Peanut Butter Cups, and Snickers. Anyway you slice it, he comes out queer. The fact that he's so ashamed about his sexual orientation that he goes out with a drag queen and gets into fist fights over the issue just makes him more nutty, not less fruity. We like to think we're all gay and proud. Some people, though, are gay and just plain nuts. (Or I could be more politically correct and say warped from a hateful/homophobic upbringing/local prevailing social mores).

[Guest cp8036]

I think they are drinking too much malt liquor.

[Guest Fin Fang Foom]

>The man, living in a sexual relationship with the drag

>queen, does not consider himself gay, so what the hell? If

>you date a drag queen, does it make you gay?

 

This is a tricky one.

 

The mere fact of someone being in a "sexual relationship" with someone else does not dictate whether they are gay or straight. There are many many many many thousands of men who are married with children who are dyed in the cashmere homosexuals. The mere fact that this guy has sex with another man (drag queen or not) does not make him gay - and it doesn't matter that he lives with the guy. There can be many reasons for the living arrangement.

 

My definition of being gay is a person who is not only sexually but emotionally attracted to a person of their own gender.

 

The prisons are filled with straight men daily fucking each other up the ass but I would bet you that 99% of those guys would not want to "set up house" with one of their "bitches" if they were released tomorrow.

 

As gay men, we focus a little too much on the "sex" in "homosexual". There's much more to being gay than sucking dick.

 

This may sound like heresy to some of you, but it's true.

 

Opinionatedly yours,

 

FFF

[Bilbo]

FFF

So, we agree and fairly quietly, too. Great!

 

I would add though that I have noticed that once one goes beyond being homosexual and becomes gay that he often has time to focus on other things. Not all gay men do use that time for other things, but there is a wide spectrum of gay projects that aren't even often used for pickups - The Pink Pistols (the national gay handgun group), some gay churches, the gay Mardi Gras Krewes, etc. Believe it or not, the gay male nudist group I belong to takes great pains to make sure that it doesn't become a sex club. But these things are only possible once one has accepted oneself fully.

 

To extend your analogy, the word sex, while in homosexual, is not in the word gay.

[Will]

RE:

 

It's odd how passionate we become about definitions that aren't definitions but linguistic conventions disguised as definitions. A sort of shorthand or even slang. For some people, "gay" means "homosexual and proud of it;" for others, it means "homosexual whether you like it or not;" for still others, "gay" means "physically and emotionally attracted to members of the same sex." There's another possibility, not mentioned here: "gay" means "physically and emotionally attracted to members of the same gender."

 

Although it isn't always apparent, there is a big difference between sex and gender.

 

In many societies, "gender" matters more than "sex." Thus, the drag queen's husband may understand "gay" to mean men who are sexually and emotionally attracted to other men *who present themselves as fully masculine.* In that case, he is absolutely right when he says that he is not gay. After all, the man he's emotionally and sexually attached (not just "attracted") to has the sex of a man but the gender of a woman. Would I say that the husband is also homophobic? You bet your bippie.

 

It's becoming more and more important in American society that we stretch our imaginations a bit so as to understand how other people understand themselves. The wages of imposing one's own definitions on other people, whether they like them or not, are all too obvious.

 

Finally, what does that 54-year-old drag queen have that I don't have, snagging herself a thirty-something hunk for a husband?

[Guest exFratBoy]

RE:

 

Agree with FFF and Bilbo.

 

Re: the idea that in certain cultures being a top does not make you "gay" especially if you are with a drag queen:

If you all remember that book "Midnight in the Garden of Good and Evil" (I'm screwing up the title big time, but hopefully you'll know what I mean) the drag queen, Lady Chablis, has several boyfriends who were otherwise straight-- e.g. she seems to be the first biological male they've been with.

 

But also wondering what a 50something queen does to get a "hot" 34 year old. Other than pay for everything, that is.

[Guest Joey Ciccone]

RE: ... men

 

Malt liquor. That's funny. Someone once called me a fag in a bar, although I was with a woman at the time. I proudly and belligerently asked the guy if he'd ever had his ass kicked by a queer. Was I fiercely embracing my sexuality, or just being a prick? The guy backed off, but the incident did make me wonder what I really am. The woman knew me as a bi escort.

 

>If you are a male dating another male, you are gay.<

 

No, you're simply dating another male. I was dating the woman in question in the anecdote above, but that doesn't make me straight. Are we only gay when in the company of men? I think it's what lies in your heart and mind, no matter who you're with at any given time, that determines a person's truest inclinations. For many, those inclinations move up and down the scale of desire.

 

I'm certainly not straight, but I'm not gay either. I'm just trying to get the most out of my time here. Experience everything. Who needs a label?

[Guest cmp]

RE:Labels

 

In certain cultures there are no words for gay, bi or straight. People in those cultures do not notice the difference between attraction and attraction. There are no groups, communities or categories. Would you differentiate coffee-drinkers from beer-drinkers from coffee-and-beer-drinkers from none-of-the-above? Would you comment on a coffee-drinker friend if you suddenly caught him sipping a beer while making love to your boyfriend? Ok, wrong example. Yet we have recently read comments on this very Message Board about bisexuality being just some cover...

[Guest]

>>The man, living in a sexual relationship with the drag

>>queen, does not consider himself gay, so what the hell? If

>>you date a drag queen, does it make you gay?

>My definition of being gay is a person who is not only

>sexually but emotionally attracted to a person of their own

>gender.

 

Hmmm. In my book, preferring sexual relationships with (i.e. getting primarily physically aroused by) members of the same sex constitutes being gay. I've met lots of gay guys who had been married. Often they were quite emotionally attracted to their wives, but when they had sex, generally fantasized about a man. Since I'm not in a relationship now, I'm physically attracted to many guys, but not emotinally attracted to them, yet I still consider myself quite gay. On the other hand, I'm emotionally but not physically attracted to a number of women, such as my mother.

 

The way I see it, most, if not all, people have a distinct preference for one gender or the other in their sexual activities. We can define those who prefer their own gender as homosexual or gay, and the others heterosexual or straight. (My Webster's defines homosexuality as "The manifestation of sexual desire toward a member of one's own sex."). A person may not like to be defined or "labeled" as such, but a definition is what it is.

 

Definitions or labels are simply meant to simplify communication. Of course, people may not wish to be associated with the negative connotations of some labels. Yet it's simpler to say "My friend is gay" than to say "My friend manifests a sexual preference towards members of his own sex." Of course, people may not want to be thought of as gay because, after all, no one's been refused an adoption for being straight. "But you are, Blanche."

 

Nevertheless, definitions or labels help us understand our world, and to make it run better. If a man hears voices which criticize him, and feels people are out to get him, he's a paranoid schizophrenic. Of course, the man may not like having this label, but he is. If one doctor talks to another about this patient, the "label" helps the doctors understand how to communicate with the patient, which medications are likely to help, and so forth.

 

So...labels are what we make of them. We may not like having labels which we perceive as having a negative connotation. But denying them doesn't mean they don't exist.

[Guest WetDream]

I am reminded of a quote I read by Hibiscus, the founder and one of the more flamboyant members of the Cockettes, around 1970. It caused me to re-evaluate a lot of my thinking. When asked if the Cockettes were drag queens he replied, "No! We are just chicks with cocks."

[Guest LOVEHANDLE]

If it walks like a duck, fucks like a duck and sucks the dick of the duck, then what do you make of it? A heron?

[Guest TexasTaurus]

RE:

 

How does she get 34 year old studs? Money and a willingness to spend it.

[Bilbo]

Why, other than money ...

 

There are young studs who prefer older people. There are pushy people who like to be close to the spotlight, and many drag queens walk around like they have a spotlight on them all the time. There are bottoms who don't like to admit that they are, and most drag queens whom I have known have been tops. And some of them are hung like Deej. There are pushy people who feel safe when the argument is physical but not when it involves talking and quick wit. Many drag queens specialize in quick wit. It doesn't necessarily involve money. Besides, gowns and wigs and shoes aren't cheap. If she has any money, she's used to spending it on herself. If she has enough, she'll enjoy playing dress up the stud. Most of them I've known are too self confident to pay for it on a continual basis.

Then, again, I've known several who were Leather Masters when they weren't in dresses. Maybe she's taken this possible loser on as a pygmalionesque challenge.

And many of the drag queens I've known, though a smaller percentage, were among the forefront of the political activists, too. And wouldn't think of fucking such a savage, but might let him just hang around if he was handy for stuffing envelopes.

I've often found that if something is happening you can't understand, that's because one or more of the assumptions you're making about it are just plain unsound.

[Will]

RE:

 

CZ, I'm responding to your post just to let you know that somebody read it and takes it seriously. In fact, I think you're probably right. Fantasies of all kinds spring into our minds unbidden, and because of that they are usually the most truthful reporters of what's in our desires. (As the old saying goes, "A death-wish a day keeps the psychiatrist away.") The problem is, of course, that the very men whose sexual orientation is ambiguous are not likely to tell you what's in their minds when they jerk off. Whatever the truth may be, it's useless without honesty, honesty with oneself, first, and then with others.

[Guest Joey Ciccone]

RE: everything

 

>If you can tell me (truthfully) what a guy looks at and/or thinks about when he's jerking off, I'm pretty sure I can tell you whether he's gay or straight.<

 

What if he sees a collage of men and women in an orgiastic display; men penetrating women, women penetrating men, men blowing men, etc.? What is he if he sees and wants it all?

[Barry]

RE: everything

 

>What if he sees a collage of men and women in an orgiastic

>display; men penetrating women, women penetrating men, men

>blowing men, etc.? What is he if he sees and wants it all?

 

I "label" him omnisexual and stand in admiration and envy. }>

[phage]

RE: everything

 

Insatiable.

[+ deej]

RE: everything

 

>What is he if he sees and wants it all?

 

I'd label him Joey Ciccone. :9

[Guest Joey Ciccone]

RE: everything

 

>I'd label him Joey Ciccone.<

 

The only label I'll wear (except of course, the Union Label)

[Guest CZ]

RE: Really & truly everything?

 

OK, assuming that this is still a serious exchange on the subject, I'd say that Joey's answer is actually a dodge. The sort of pansexual-orgy fantasy he describes is perfectly plausible, of course; in fact, some form of it is common among 13 & 14-y.o. boys (i.e. boys who are just beginning to jerk off.) But before too long, a guy will start imagining very specific things--most notably the gender of the fantasy figures (often people he knows or has at least seen), what activities they're involved in, and with whom. From that point on, the jerk-off fantasy should be a pretty accurate reflection of his unmediated sexual desires.

 

And with all due respect to Joey's wide-ranging tastes, I honestly doubt that his jerk-off fantasies (assuming he does jerk off) are always of the sort of scene he describes, or that he thinks that there are guys out there like that.

 

Finally, while I agree with Will that people who don't want to own up to their true sexuality (to themselves or to others) aren't likely to be fully candid in answering my little question, I still stand by the simple proposition that you ARE what you daydream about.