Escort Fees

[SAdler]

>WTF???? does this have to do with anything being discussed in

>this thread? But I could be wrong, as I'm not aware of any

>"training" involved in bending over, spreading one's ass

>cheeks and taking it up the butt? Just came naturally to me.

>Does that require an advanced degree?

 

Well if you want someone to fuck up the butt or spread their ass, go talk to someone on the blvd who is there strictly for the money or sex, the street hookers and what not. There is a differentiation. I am discussing actual documented research that discusses the prostitution and escort community as a sociological point of interest. Prostitutes and escorts are easily comparable to any other trade. You learn skills, ways to treat customers, ways to make more money etc. It's all relevant. Further more, while it doesn't require an advanced degree, who is to say that it wouldn't BENEFIT from one.

 

Let's talk theory. Doctors and Lawyers didn't always have to be certified to do so, that was a progression of society to that point. Granted, prostitution is the world's oldest occupation but socially it's only STARTING, not saying it's anywhere close to being, to becomes accepted. I bring in the European examples because they have it legalized in places turning the government into a pimp and creating restrictions on the working people to the point that they can't refuse clients. It's a huge an detestable step but a social evolution none the less. There are definitely requirements and training required for the practitioners in other countries, it's pretty far off to have it officially here but there have always been underground learning cultures of every type.

 

>Wow, has that really been your experience? I, as a client,

>have certainly never exhibited those traits. However, I as a

>client, have certainly experienced that attitude from a vast

>majority of prima donna escorts, who foolishly believe that

>their $300/hr 6 inch limp cock is to DIE FOR!, unlike the

>little street boy who sells it for $40/pop. And btw, they ARE

>doing the escort a favor, as you know, they can take their

>business elsewhere, as male prostitutes are certainly not a

>rare exotic treasure.

 

Again. I express views from literary research and I’d be happy to cite sources for you if you’d like. Two papers I ended up writing the quarter were titled:

 

“From Selling Butt to Celibate: An Ex-Escort’s tale of using his bottom to get to the top” and When sleeping where you eat and eating where you sleep is a must: Sexual Performance Anxiety in the Male Sex Workplace.”

 

The fact is, from people actually involved in the business surveys and interviews. Nation wide research has resulted in these statements. Notice I didn’t use “I’ve met” until I was referencing the good experiences I have. You’re doing hookers and street #### a favor, even hustlers. As a whole, escorts (yes there is a differentiation) don’t need the money. It’s a job and if they lose the job it will suck, but chances are they’re intelligent enough to fall back on other skills and get other jobs.

 

Granted male prostitutes are not an exotic treasure but it’s funny to think if they unionized like the trend of female sex workers in the stripping fields. It might not be too far off, once all these Californians move East and start taking over the red states not even overpowering Red leader is going to stop new legislation. (Sorry for bringing in politics that’s ALL I’ll mention it was relevant) A strike? Eh? Yeah, not likely. But the fact returns to my ORIGINAL POINT that started all this arguing. If you don’t like someone’s rate. MOVE ON. Don’t insist or OFFER a rate that YOU think is more fair. If they want or need your business that bad, a simple “No Thanks” from you will incite an offer form them if they so desire. It’s not YOUR responsibility to tell an escort they’re not worth their price.

 

>Are you referring to clients or escorts here?

 

In all honesty, both. But I was referring to clients given the context. I’ll assume that was a rhetorical remark.

 

>LOL! Only male prostitutes can not fathom this basic business

>concept that the rest of the world deals with every day of the

>week every week of the year, every year of their lives. Every

>person who gets his ass out of bed at the crack of dawn, and

>goes to work at a sucky assed job, for FAR FAR FAR less an

>hour than a prima donna male escort, KNOWS that he is putting

>a price on himself, ergo "selling" his services for an hourly

>wage. Grow up and face reality, but of course, as soon as you

>hit the big 30, I'm sure you'll comprehend the basics.

 

I’ve touched on this. I pity ANY escort that doesn’t use their money for education or to better themselves. Pity is probably a bad word because it might not be such a luxury for most. But I will say that most ESCORTS (again, the differentiation) that I’ve encountered are in college, law school, business school and the like. They are making money through school so they don’t have to struggle to ENJOY their college lives. In the end, they’ll have had fun in school, not have been without, and have a degree that will take them places in the world well past their thirties. And for the record, there are a LOT of hot escorts in their thirties from what I’ve seen so don’t knock em. Discipline and good grooming can keep someone looking buyable well into middle age from what I’ve seen on this site.

 

>Really????? Most professionals in the corporate world have to

>be reviewed every six months on their performance.

 

Not relevant. When I say I have reviews you don’t, I’m referring to the client escort relationship in which MY credibility is called into question. I’m saying I’m reviewed so you know what to EXPECT from me. You have no reviews in context to let me know what to expect from “you.”

 

>I could do that with my "job" too! Wouldn't put food on the

>table if I did it, would it?

 

But again. This is what is all comes down to. This isn’t always to put food on the table. It’s a good or a service. Do you go to the spa for a massage or facial? Think of escorting and hiring as a luxury rather than something you’re OWED and maybe you’ll understand what I’m trying to explain to you.

[SAdler]

>If we as clients frequently encounter escorts who display

>these problems and thus get the impression that these problems

>are common among escorts, how on earth can that be anything

>other than the fault of escorts?

 

It is the fault of escorts the stereotype gets created. I’m not denying that. I’m telling you not to assume the worst and treat every escort as if they’ve already wronged you.

 

>Well, I certainly am glad you're not the type of person who

>makes assumptions about the people he deals with just because

>he's had bad experiences with some people in the past! LOL!

 

Again, I don’t. I’m happy about the good experiences I have. But if I had the anticipation of a bad experience before every client, I simply wouldn’t show up. My motto has always been “When I stop enjoying this, I’ll stop doing it.”

 

>And what is wrong with that? If I have never experienced your

>services, how exactly do I know whether I am going to agree

>with your assessment of their value? You, as the service

>provider, don't have to worry about the value of what I am

>offering you, because one dollar always has exactly the same

>value as another and so my money is just as good as any other

>client's. But the value of what you are offering isn't fixed,

>it's just a matter of opinion. Why do I have to accept your

>opinion about it?

 

Because it’s my opinion  Think about it. You’re asking me to do something simply because YOU want me to do it? Why should I do it if I don’t feel I’m going to be adequately compensated. You’re right, your money is just as good as another clients but theirs is better when they’re paying a full amount. BACK TO THE ORIGINAL POINT. If you don’t want to pay the price, don’t. But don’t insist or insult with another price. Your walking away is a good enough message. If the escort is willing to go for less, let THEM make the move.

 

>So you are saying that you are providing something that I

>can't get anywhere else? Once a customer hires you, they will

>never be satisfied with anyone else again? That's quite a

>claim! Of course, if it is the case that customers find other

>escorts satisfy them just as well as you do, then it would not

>be true that you (or any other escort) is providing something

>that is unique, right?

 

No, I’m saying I’m offering me. And you can’t get ME anywhere else. If a client doesn’t like me, so be it. Frankly, if what I’m offering a client can be offered by someone else, then I have an evil twin with a mirror image of my brain. This goes back to the original point. I think I speak for a lot of escorts by saying IM NOT A PIECE OF MEAT. If all you want out of me is sex we’re probably not going to meet. Someone can have sex the same as someone else, be a tad odd but it’s possible considering how intimate the act of sex it, but it’s possible. I’m just saying I’m me and I’m entitled to whatever price I set for myself. You are entitled to say No Thank You and go elsewhere. You are NOT entitled to tell me I’m not worth what I think I am.

 

>On the contrary. If you want to find out the value of what I

>am offering -- which is money -- you can open the business

>section of any major newspaper and find out exactly what a

>dollar is worth today. Those are my "reviews." As to your

>reviews, they are the opinions of a small number of people who

>may have completely different standards that I do. I think we

>are all familiar with the fact that escorts with many positive

>reviews here have also done some pretty rotten things.

 

Really. I’m sure there are escorts with great reviews that have done rotten things but you can DAMNED well be sure that it will go up in the message board the next day or there will be a review about it. There will of course be a red flag on their review or something. Again. How am I to know that you’re not going to try to bargain with me AFTER the act? How am I to know that you’re a good person and not some sleaze? Is it even possible to know this stuff in advance? Of course it is, but the Escorts Only message board was taken down much to your chagrin. The value of the dollar means NOTHING when the person giving the dollar is a scum bucket trying to milk someone (literally and figuratively) for every ounce of compassion and dignity.

 

The fact that a sect of you continue to argue this point further strengthens my point that respect isn’t always a top priority for you otherwise you would have maybe said, “I never thought of it that way.” Said you still felt bargaining happened on occasion but you can respect my point of view, and moved on.

[SAdler]

NN:

>

>Boston Guy and woodlawn did a fine job of responding to your

>comments; they saved me the trouble of having to respond to

>you point by point. But in response to a few highlights

>of what you said--

 

I’ve also responded to the other’s comments so please look there as well. None of my responses should be considered disrespectful, the point is that you guys are telling someone who is stuck in a famine they shouldn’t be hungry. Are you in their shoes? Have you escorted? Until then you can’t possibly respond with validity.

 

>I have 21 years of very specialized experience in a

>professional

>field. My work is in demand and I'm compensated well for it.

 

I’m sure you have an I’m sure you’re good at what you do. I would never discount the fact that you may be the BEST in your field. But what it comes down to is that escorts are they themselves original people. This simile just came to me. You wouldn’t hire Drew Carey to play a part designed for Brad Pitt. Just the same that if you want a certain escort because of their looks and intelligence, another wouldn’t do. The way I bring in my other comparison is that if you need a doctor, yes, one is probably better than another. But they should both be expected to have the same training and same right to practice medicine.

 

Not to contradict myself but the context is different here. There is no TRAINING for escorting. Individuals are just that and they can’t be replaced by someone else. When you need a surgeon for a hernia, there are lots of them that will do the job the same way and cure your problem the same way. Again, one can always be BETTER than the other but the general EXPECTATION is the job will get done.

 

>Many people in the USA have no medical insurance, and ask

>doctors and hospitals and pharmacists to negotiate--with

>success. By success, I don't just mean that they pay less,

>I also mean that the practitioners aren't insulted. As

>woodlawn said, you don't know what you're talking about.

 

Not the same. I’ve already explained why. Free market economy. Even without medical insurance different practitioners charge different amounts. Those without insurance can get the theoretical SAME treatment at any of them. As a society we know there are better practitioners, but that aside you have to understand that the unbiased EXPECTATIONS should be the same and equal in all cases.

>

>This takes the cake. Maybe some day if you're misdiagnosed

>by one doctor and then helped by another you'll sing another

>tune. Or maybe you'll have the experience of being treated

>by a doctor like some of the ones I've known, who care so

>much about their patients that it makes you want to cry.

>

>It would be so choice if a doctor went to one of the

>L.A. Hooville meetings when you're there, and if you

>would tell them face-to-face how individual your

>escorting is, and how medicine is just medicine.

 

Misdiagnosis is grounds for malpractice. I’m sure there are many doctors who are that involved with they patient but I’d object and have the judge throw that one out for relevance and prejudicial to the jury. It’s not relevant to the actual argument here. As to encountering a doctor at a HooVille meeting, let them debate the issue with me. Medicine is medicine. It’s not something easy to pull out of your ass and I’m in NO WAY discrediting the hard work that went into their practice, but I doubt they’d disagree with me that part of their business is keeping clients coming in. They know that if a client doesn’t get the service from them, there are thousands of other practitioners out there that can do a similar if not better job. With me? I know and have the self satisfaction of knowing that if a client turns his back on me or tries to play bargain games and I say no to them, they will not have me…ever. If they don’t want me, all the better. But that’s the ENTIRE POINT OF WHAT IM SAYING.

 

If you can’t afford someone else. Move onto another person. Don’t tell them that they’re not worth that because the fact that you want to hire them is proof enough that you want them and they must be doing something right. If you walk away, and that happens enough, maybe that escort will re-evaluate their fee structure. What the point is is that it’s THEIR decision, not yours.

[woodlawn]

>It is the fault of escorts the stereotype gets created. I’m

>not denying that. I’m telling you not to assume the worst and

>treat every escort as if they’ve already wronged you.

 

Very sensible. I agree.

 

>Again, I don’t. I’m happy about the good experiences I have.

>But if I had the anticipation of a bad experience before every

>client, I simply wouldn’t show up. My motto has always been

>“When I stop enjoying this, I’ll stop doing it.”

 

Again, a very sensible reply.

 

>Because it’s my opinion. Think about it. You’re

>asking me to do something simply because YOU want me to do it?

> Why should I do it if I don’t feel I’m going to be adequately

>compensated.

 

You shouldn't. That's how business transactions work.

 

>You’re right, your money is just as good as

>another clients but theirs is better when they’re paying a

>full amount.

 

Absolutely. If someone else is offering you more money than I for the same services, you should take their offer. That's what I always tell escorts when I bargain with them. I never allow myself to get into a bidding situation.

 

 

> BACK TO THE ORIGINAL POINT. If you don’t want

>to pay the price, don’t. But don’t insist or insult with

>another price. Your walking away is a good enough message.

>If the escort is willing to go for less, let THEM make the

>move.

 

I don't quite see how an escort is supposed to make the first move in bargaining if he offers a price and I then refuse and leave the conversation. Bargaining can only take place if I make a counteroffer or at least in some way indicate that I am willing to make one.

 

>No, I’m saying I’m offering me. And you can’t get ME anywhere

>else.

 

Quite true. But since many if not all of your clients probably see other escorts, it seems established that they can get whatever they're looking for from someone else just as well as from you.

 

> If a client doesn’t like me, so be it. Frankly, if

>what I’m offering a client can be offered by someone else,

>then I have an evil twin with a mirror image of my brain.

 

Please see above.

 

>This goes back to the original point. I think I speak for a

>lot of escorts by saying IM NOT A PIECE OF MEAT.

 

I understand you to be saying that you do not like to be thought of as a commodity. All I can tell you is that by adopting the occupation you've chosen, you have in a sense made yourself a commodity. You should not blame clients for regarding you as one.

 

> I’m just saying I’m me and I’m entitled to

>whatever price I set for myself. You are entitled to say No

>Thank You and go elsewhere. You are NOT entitled to tell me

>I’m not worth what I think I am.

 

A commodity is always worth whatever someone is willing to pay for it. I seem to remember a thread by you on this board complaining that in a certain city where you were plying your trade you were having trouble finding enough customers willing to pay the prices you wanted to charge. That is the market telling you that you are not worth, to the consumers in that market, what you are charging.

 

> Again. How am I to know that

>you’re not going to try to bargain with me AFTER the act? How

>am I to know that you’re a good person and not some sleaze?

 

You don't. But it was your idea to get into a business in which you have no real recourse if you are cheated -- it was not my idea for you to do this. The fact that you have no recourse means that you must be very, very good at sizing up people based on a very brief contact, or you must reconcile yourself to being cheated on a certain number of occasions. And the same applies to clients.

 

> The value of the dollar means NOTHING when

>the person giving the dollar is a scum bucket trying to milk

>someone (literally and figuratively) for every ounce of

>compassion and dignity.

 

The value of the dollar means that what I am offering you -- money -- has a value of which you can be reasonably certain. I am not offering you myself, any more than I offer myself to a dentist when I make an appointment with him. I am offering to pay X number of dollars in return for certain services. You know what X number of dollars is worth. I do not know what your services are worth, because I've never tried them.

 

>The fact that a sect of you continue to argue this point

>further strengthens my point that respect isn’t always a top

>priority for you otherwise you would have maybe said, “I never

>thought of it that way.” Said you still felt bargaining

>happened on occasion but you can respect my point of view, and

>moved on.

 

In the years I have been reading this board I have noticed that when the subject of fees comes up, even certain clients who always take the side of the escort on other issues find themselves arguing against the escorts on this one. I have seen that happen in this thread also. It should not come as a shock to anyone that escorts are opposed to anything that might reduce their income while clients feel it's not such a bad idea to do something that might reduce what they have to pay. Both sides are arguing from self-interest.

[augustman]

Mr. Adler:

For the most part I have no problem with anything you said except the content regarding that you feel insulted if the client attempts to negotiate.

 

I have generally been of the ilk "let the market set the price" and move on if I do not like it. Second I am not a negotiating person I see a price, if it fits great, if not I might ask if the have a multi hour price that is different, many do some do not. I will not ask anything if I see the escort has specifically stated "No price negotiation." Again no problem I just move on.

 

However, I believe the recent trend of escorts to use the "Varies" invites the client to ask if the escort negotiates. I believe you responded in that exchange why an escort would do that and many of your client reviews you have asked your clients to phrase it that way. I realize most of those are multi-hour and you did state that is a potentially different situation. But I contend that continued use of the varies means different things to different clients and escorts. Whether it be for services provided, certain locations, etc. So that if they ask about rates and question it is because the advertisement of the rate is in question. If you do not want clients to question the rates than please be specific up front. This is my rate $XXX per hour and I do not negoitate. This does not eliminate the clients who can not read with retention which I know are just plain fools, but it does eliminate some.

 

By the way I can name at least three well known escorts with higher rates when they quoted me that used the "varies" I responded thanks but not my price range and within 24 hours wrote back with a revised price that did fit my range. Two of them turned out very good and I reviewed them but did not include this in their review. I find this the case with travelling escorts to make a city worth a visit.

[Boston Guy]

>If you can’t afford someone else. Move onto another person.

>Don’t tell them that they’re not worth that because the fact

>that you want to hire them is proof enough that you want them

>and they must be doing something right. If you walk away, and

>that happens enough, maybe that escort will re-evaluate their

>fee structure. What the point is is that it’s THEIR decision,

>not yours.

>

 

I've read all of your replies with interest. You've clearly given the matter some thought, which is not surprising. But I disagree with you on a number of points.

 

First, you say above (and have said at least one prior time in this thread), "If you can't afford...". You seem to assume that someone who is offering to negotiate rates with you cannot afford your services. I would like to point out that there is a very significant difference between not being able to afford something and believing that something does not represent good value at the price at which it is offered.

 

I know you don't care for the product comparisons, but simple examples often make good economic examples. If I'm in a grocery store and I see a loaf of my favorite whole-wheat bread offered for $0.99, I might think that's a very good value and buy a couple of loaves. On the other hand, if I see it offered for $99.00, I'd think the store was nuts (or made a mistake) and I wouldn't buy any. The fact that I wouldn't choose to buy a loaf of bread for $99.00 should not lead one to conclude that I do not like the bread or that I cannot afford to pay $99.00 for a loaf; certainly I can, just as anyone here could. But I wouldn't, because it would not represent good value.

 

Similarly, when I'm on the road and considing hiring an escort, that choice represents just one way I can spend my evening or whatever time is available to me. I could just as well read a book, catch a movie, go to a good restaurant, spend time calling friends, etc. Given that, if I decide I do want to hire an escort, I will see who is available at that particular time and place. If none of the escorts interest me, I will not hire any, regardless of the price. On the other hand, if several interest me, I will compare the price they are charging, just as I would compare the price of several cars I might be considering purchasing. If my interest in all is equal -- which it wll might be, if I haven't previously met any of them -- and one price is clearly favorable, I'll probably call that person first. If our conversation is satisfactory, that's where it stops and I won't call the others at all. If it's not, I'll try the next. In this context, Woodlawn is correct: there are times when escorts beome commodities, where any one of a list can be substituted for another with relative ease.

 

If I were an escort and I heard that, I'd probably be a bit miffed at first. I wouldn't like hearing that I'm just like one of the other guys who are available. But that would be ego talking, rejecting the idea that I am not a truly unique, one-of-a-kind person with individual worth. Certainly every escort is just that: as unique as any of us. But -- and here's the rub (no pun intended) -- the SERVICES offered by escorts are not unique. When it comes to at least some clients, the services offered by many escorts are interchangeable. And, unfortunately, I can attest after many years of experience as a client, that many escorts do little or nothing to make their services unique or memorable.

 

In this context, escorts become a lot like doctors and attorneys -- when hired for certain purposes. For example, if I have a cut that needs a few stitches or a will that needs to be altered in a minor way, almost any doctor at the ER or almost any attorney can do the job.

 

On the other hand, if I'm looking for a surgeon to perform brain surgery on my mother or an attorney to handle an important, complex legal matter, competence is the primary consideration; price would only become a consideration, if at all, if faced with two professionals who I was convinced could equally handle the difficult task ahead. For me, the choice of an escort never rises to this level. Why? Because, as you say, escorts are a luxury. Hiring an escort is simply about having fun. It's never a necessity or even a matter of great importantance. It's about having fun.

 

But that's only from the client's perspective. From the escort's perspective, it's about earning money -- a matter of considerably greater importance, especially for those escorts for whom escorting is their sole source of income. It's not surprising, then, that escorts often don't like to enter into negotiations that they often view as an attempt to reduce their income.

 

Some escorts never negotiate and that is certainly their right. If someone says that they don't negotiate, I accept that -- and may well walk away. We each get to conduct our business as we see fit, so long as the market allows us to earn enough income to satisfy our needs and desires. But escorts who refuse to negotiate, out of a naive notion that it's somehow insulting to them, are probably doing themselves a disservice.

 

Escorts often write here that an offer to negotiate their services is insulting to them. I think that's naive, if for no other reason that the very offer indicates that the prospective client recognizes that the services offered by the escort have real value. From this point of view, any offer of negotiation is an acclamation of value. And negotiations do not need to end up with less money in the escort's pocket by any means.

 

Indeed, if an escort is charging an hourly rate that I think is higher than I want to pay, I often ask if they offer a lower hourly rate for a longer period of time. An escort who charges $300 per hour will generally not get my business. However, if that same escort agrees to $400 for two hours, we might both be happy.

 

Negotiations, when respectfully conducted in recognition of the fact that both parties are bringing something of value to the table, should not be insulting to either party. Even if a negotiation fails, which they often do, it's not because one party is bad or evil; it simply means that no agreement acceptable to both parties is possible at this time.

 

Frankly, if I were an escort and my goal was to make as much money from escorting as possible, I'd be attempting to negotiate all kinds of deals with various clients. I'd be seeking a mix of last-minute appointments at high rates plus steady, dependable appointments with known clients at a lower rate in exchange for guaranteed frequency, special rates for multi-day trips, and so on and so on.

 

If I were an escort, the one thing I'd remember at all times would be that my own self-worth is not based on anything offered to me by any client at any time, good or bad. But the economic value of the SERVICES that I offer may well go up and down with the market, based on time of day, day of the week, geographic location, state of the national economy, or any one of a host of different factors.

 

BG

[Rick Munroe]

>When it comes to at least some

>clients, the services offered by many escorts are

>interchangeable. And, unfortunately, I can attest after many

>years of experience as a client, that many escorts do little

>or nothing to make their services unique or memorable.

 

And then there are those of us who go out of our way to be "different." Although it has inexplicably never been reported in our reviews, I will often, while getting blown, perform a hillbilly version of the Laverne and Shirley theme song ("Making Our Dreams Come True") with two metal spoons while Derek uses a comb-and-wax-paper kazoo to do a counter-melody (Fifty Cent's "Candy Shop") as he power-pounds the guy.

 

Then again, maybe that isn't so memorable. Maybe it's something most people would try to forget. :+

[SAdler]

Yay for Layovers. Absolutely NOTHING to do but this. Not sure why I’m bothering because of the circular arguments at this point but really right now it’s just something to do in Dallas while I wait.

 

>>You’re right, your money is just as good as

>>another clients but theirs is better when they’re paying a

>>full amount.

>

>Absolutely. If someone else is offering you more money than I

>for the same services, you should take their offer. That's

>what I always tell escorts when I bargain with them. I never

>allow myself to get into a bidding situation.

 

But the point is you are making a specific offer to say that that escort is NOT WORTH what they quote.

>

>> BACK TO THE ORIGINAL POINT. If you don’t want

>>to pay the price, don’t. But don’t insist or insult with

>>another price. Your walking away is a good enough message.

>>If the escort is willing to go for less, let THEM make the

>>move.

>

>I don't quite see how an escort is supposed to make the first

>move in bargaining if he offers a price and I then refuse and

>leave the conversation. Bargaining can only take place if I

>make a counteroffer or at least in some way indicate that I am

>willing to make one.

 

Quite simple. I’ve even outlined it several times. “Too much, no thank you.” Or, “Sorry, that’s a little out of my range good luck.” Etc. etc. The escort sets their price, you have graciously contacted them exhibiting an interest. By doing so you have INSTANTLY indicated you are in the market to hire. It is now up to HIM to decide if he needs/wants your business to bargain. By letting HIM make the next move, no chance of insult takes place. The “bargain” either continues or the matter dies with nobody being offended.

>

>>No, I’m saying I’m offering me. And you can’t get ME

>anywhere

>>else.

>

>Quite true. But since many if not all of your clients

>probably see other escorts, it seems established that they can

>get whatever they're looking for from someone else just as

>well as from you.

 

Touche but no. I have a lot of exclusive clients. How do I know? You’re right I don’t. But there are many who tell me I’m enough etc. But frankly, that’s not even the point. The argument being made is if they are being satisfied by other escorts, it’s because those escorts have something that I don’t. they too are individual people satisfying a different part of their fantasies. To be crass. I had a client who would always hire me and he also had another regular but he said he wouldn’t tell me because I’d be so shocked at his difference in taste from day to day. One day we had a threeway which he called “East Meets West.” It was an asian escort. I have to say there are something an asian escort can provide that I will never be able to in a million years. Regardless, by genetic makeup and personality, we’re both unique individuals.

\

>Please see above.

 

Déjà vu  Me Too

 

>I understand you to be saying that you do not like to be

>thought of as a commodity. All I can tell you is that by

>adopting the occupation you've chosen, you have in a sense

>made yourself a commodity. You should not blame clients for

>regarding you as one.

 

I’m not blaming them for making me one. I’m making social commentary based on research; nothing more, nothing less. This wont win me points but higher classes and different castes of people treat all people and their “servants” as it were differently. I wouldn’t really even want to associate with a person who considered an escort a commodity, that’s not the type of client I deal with.

 

>A commodity is always worth whatever someone is willing to pay

>for it. I seem to remember a thread by you on this board

>complaining that in a certain city where you were plying your

>trade you were having trouble finding enough customers willing

>to pay the prices you wanted to charge. That is the market

>telling you that you are not worth, to the consumers in that

>market, what you are charging.

 

LOL. DEFINITELY not me. If so I’m sure there was a COMPLETELY different context and instead of making sweeping comments like that to indict me for hypocrisy (the 8th deadly sin in my book) why don’t you please POST this thread.

 

>You don't. But it was your idea to get into a business in

>which you have no real recourse if you are cheated -- it was

>not my idea for you to do this. The fact that you have no

>recourse means that you must be very, very good at sizing up

>people based on a very brief contact, or you must reconcile

>yourself to being cheated on a certain number of occasions.

>And the same applies to clients.

 

The point (Again in context for your statement) is in regards to reviews and the lack thereof for clients. If it were relevant to the topic of fees your response might hold water, otherwise you’re taking my statement out of context.

>

>The value of the dollar means that what I am offering you --

>money -- has a value of which you can be reasonably certain.

>I am not offering you myself, any more than I offer myself to

>a dentist when I make an appointment with him. I am offering

>to pay X number of dollars in return for certain services.

>You know what X number of dollars is worth. I do not know

>what your services are worth, because I've never tried them.

 

Thank you for making yes ANOTHER point for me. Who is anyone to bargain for services they have not yet tried. My regulars receive discounts ALL the time because I feel that frequent flyers deserve compensation. The fact is, some try to bargain negating someone’s self worth before they even meet them.

 

EXAMPLE:

 

A certain escort’s rates happen to be posted as $200/hour. Through the course of my research one of the emails he brought to my attention said, “I’ll give you $180.”

 

WTF? I mean really. This goes back to the image I painted of the crotchety bitchy queens who are so unhappy with their own lives they sit and bicker with everyone over $20! Again, I’ll get flack for referring to queens etc but see the sub thread above for clarification.

>

 

>In the years I have been reading this board I have noticed

>that when the subject of fees comes up, even certain clients

>who always take the side of the escort on other issues find

>themselves arguing against the escorts on this one. I have

>seen that happen in this thread also. It should not come as a

>shock to anyone that escorts are opposed to anything that

>might reduce their income while clients feel it's not such a

>bad idea to do something that might reduce what they have to

>pay. Both sides are arguing from self-interest.

>

NO NO NO NO. That’s the point. You are not listening to a damned word I said. For me especially and the point fo this argument its not ABOUT the MONEY. It’s about RESPECT. The fact that someone feels they have to right to negate someone’s self worth is what upsets me so much. It then trickles down into selfish client syndrome who “thusly” makes it ALL ABOUT THE MONEY. It’s not.

 

SING IT ARETHA!

[noviceny]

wow...that was alot of reading to get caught up with this post

 

Both sides made me think a lot, but I guess it boils down to this for me:

 

1) Escorts are providing a luxury item that only they (that specific escort) can provide. This puts them in a unique position when it comes to pricing. No other person looks like them, or says what they say or has their personality.

 

2) Doctors, lawyers, etc. provide more of a necessary service. We must go to them for their expertice.

 

I have a sliding scale, based on someone's income and the fact that I can afford to have a sliding scale. I may stop that practice as I am finding out that I cant afford to do that any more. Many doctors have the same...a lot of persons and organizations that are part of the helping professions will do the same.

 

Escorting is a service profession, but they are providing us with a luxury and I believe, that is why the client may be looked at differently than a client of a social service agency. We have the money to blow $200+ on fun...some of us can do it more than others, but I dont think anyone would feel badly for any of us if we got ripped off. The attitude of "well they can afford it" seems to abound.

 

I thought hiring escorts would be fun cause I really do like all kinds of people and wanted to experiment. Its been fun, but I dont feel like the same person I was when I started. If this is how I feel, I can only imagine how escorts feel. After all, Ive made a few bad decisions, but this site and others are looking out for my choices and "rights." Whose looking out for the escort ? His fellow escorts?...hell no !!! The client ?...sometimes. So the guys have to look out for themselves...financially, emotionally, psychologically. Financially is the easiest way for someone to look out for themselves cause its all concrete and you can stick to a limit, an obvious line...but sometimes the psychological and the financial get mixed up and the line can be too rigid or too lax.

 

Just my opinion

[Rick Munroe]

>Whose

>looking out for the escort ? His fellow escorts?...hell no !!!

 

Actually...Derek is very protective of me.

[tangjason]

I remember surfing around when I first came out in 1999, the going rate was $150. It has now climbed to $250. The rise is comparable to real estate prices over the same period.

[JT Brooklyn]

IMHO.."Getting Laid" has really gotten involved around here! Paragraphs and Paragraphs of "Reasons Why"..Either You Have it or You Don't! Either "YOU SPEND IT" or "You WON'T!... "Justifying" Why So Much..(Escorts) or Why Not Pay so much.. (Clients) is as "ALWAYS" a GOING NOWHERE Conversation.. BUT I guess it has A "Cleansing Value". Like an Enema! LOL :+ p.s There certainly are "Workin Guys" who do have "Close Friends" also in the same line of Work! The all alone in Life.."WAIF THEORY" is a little Wacked Out!..IMHO of course..LOL :+

[noviceny]

>IMHO.."Getting Laid" has really gotten involved around here!

>Paragraphs and Paragraphs of "Reasons Why"..Either You Have it

>or You Don't! Either "YOU SPEND IT" or "You WON'T!...

>"Justifying" Why So Much..(Escorts) or Why Not Pay so much..

>(Clients) is as "ALWAYS" a GOING NOWHERE Conversation.. BUT I

>guess it has A "Cleansing Value". Like an Enema! LOL :+ p.s

>There certainly are "Workin Guys" who do have "Close Friends"

>also in the same line of Work! The all alone in Life.."WAIF

>THEORY" is a little Wacked Out!..IMHO of course..LOL :+

 

I kinda agree but I have heard a number of escorts say "No one knows I do this" That can definitely lead to isolation and a feeling that one is doing something wrong. Sure there are guys who have no problem with this line of work and have a great support system but I think those are few and far between.

[JT Brooklyn]

Novice..99% of the Guys I have Hungout with, Definitely Have "Not" felt any kind of "Guilt.." Especially when they are getting a "Great B/J" and.. or about to "CUM" AND Getting Paid for It!... Would You Really? lol :+

[woodlawn]

>Yay for Layovers. Absolutely NOTHING to do but this.

 

Ever thought about reading a book? There are probably one or two books in existence worth reading that you have not yet read.

 

 

>Not

>sure why I’m bothering because of the circular arguments

 

Please look up the definition of "circular argument." You are using the term incorrectly.

 

>But the point is you are making a specific offer to say that

>that escort is NOT WORTH what they quote.

 

You could say that. Or you could say that I am telling him what his services are worth to me.

 

>Quite simple. I’ve even outlined it several times. “Too

>much, no thank you.” Or, “Sorry, that’s a little out of my

>range good luck.”

 

In each case the client is using words that tell the escort the issue is price: "too much" or "out of my range." Those words tell the escort the client would be willing to hire if the price were lower. They open the door to bargaining. They also do what you say the client should never do -- they tell the escort that to the client he is not worth the price he is asking.

 

>Touche but no. I have a lot of exclusive clients. How do I

>know? You’re right I don’t. But there are many who tell me

>I’m enough etc. But frankly, that’s not even the point. The

>argument being made is if they are being satisfied by other

>escorts, it’s because those escorts have something that I

>don’t.

 

I think Boston Guy put the matter very well in his most recent post. A lot of clients are looking for certain services that a large number of escorts are capable of providing. For them, one escort is just as good as another.

 

> I wouldn’t really even want to associate

>with a person who considered an escort a commodity, that’s not

>the type of client I deal with.

 

That's okay. There are lots and lots of escorts who are perfectly willing to do so, and lots and lots of clients who are satisfied with the services of those escorts.

 

>LOL. DEFINITELY not me. If so I’m sure there was a

>COMPLETELY different context and instead of making sweeping

>comments like that to indict me for hypocrisy (the 8th deadly

>sin in my book) why don’t you please POST this thread.

 

I won't go to the trouble, but I do seem to recall that the thread was about the comparative difficulty of finding clients willing to pay your price in San Francisco as opposed to L.A.

 

 

>Thank you for making yes ANOTHER point for me. Who is anyone

>to bargain for services they have not yet tried.

 

As BG and I have both said, there are lots of clients who want services that any number of escorts can supply, just as there are lots of patients who want routine services that any competent doctor can perform. It's appropriate for them to bargain because they are not looking for something "unique."

 

>WTF? I mean really. This goes back to the image I painted of

>the crotchety bitchy queens who are so unhappy with their own

>lives they sit and bicker with everyone over $20!

 

Some people just enjoy haggling. I have a relative who is like that. He will even haggle with a cab driver over the amount of the fare. He doesn't need to economize and can afford to pay any amount of money for anything he wants, but he loves bargaining for its own sake.

 

> For me especially and the point fo this

>argument its not ABOUT the MONEY. It’s about RESPECT. The

>fact that someone feels they have to right to negate someone’s

>self worth is what upsets me so much.

 

You are free to get as upset as you like. For me and for a lot of other clients, however, it's about the money.

[SAdler]

Auggie:

>For the most part I have no problem with anything you said

>except the content regarding that you feel insulted if the

>client attempts to negotiate.

 

Again. I must ask you. Why am I not entitled to my opinion when it surely holds more validity that yours in this case. Do you escort? When somebody asks to bargain with YOU are you offended? I mean really. What is so hard about this premise of entitlement to understand. There are grounds in life. If you haven’t been there, you can’t talk about that!

 

>I have generally been of the ilk "let the market set the

>price" and move on if I do not like it. Second I am not a

>negotiating person I see a price, if it fits great, if not I

>might ask if the have a multi hour price that is different,

>many do some do not. I will not ask anything if I see the

>escort has specifically stated "No price negotiation." Again

>no problem I just move on.

 

What the issue here is this continued notion of “the market.” The premise I’m trying to get across here is that everyone is their own person and entitled to set their own price regardless of what everyone else is charging. If it works for them, great. If not, they can alter their fees accordingly.

 

>However, I believe the recent trend of escorts to use the

>"Varies" invites the client to ask if the escort negotiates. I

>believe you responded in that exchange why an escort would do

>that and many of your client reviews you have asked your

>clients to phrase it that way. I realize most of those are

>multi-hour and you did state that is a potentially different

>situation. But I contend that continued use of the varies

>means different things to different clients and escorts.

>Whether it be for services provided, certain locations, etc.

>So that if they ask about rates and question it is because the

>advertisement of the rate is in question. If you do not want

>clients to question the rates than please be specific up

>front. This is my rate $XXX per hour and I do not negoitate.

>This does not eliminate the clients who can not read with

>retention which I know are just plain fools, but it does

>eliminate some.

 

The varies, I’ll be blunt is a new way to do the business even less legally. I’m admitting to it, my rates are based on the service. That’s what varies is. To my knowledge (and in my research) it has never stood for “make me an offer.” My clients review me usually for dinner sessions that can last anywhere from 2 hours to 5 or 6 hours and I wont change the rate to an “evening” rate until the relevant parameters are set in motion. Some times I get paid (by this 5/6 hour session theory) a LOT below the going rate. Other times, obscenely higher. Firstly, it all balances out but secondly, I wouldn’t allow it to get that far unless I was enjoying myself. It comes down to the escort. It’s their responsibility, not yours.

 

>By the way I can name at least three well known escorts with

>higher rates when they quoted me that used the "varies" I

>responded thanks but not my price range and within 24 hours

>wrote back with a revised price that did fit my range. Two of

>them turned out very good and I reviewed them but did not

>include this in their review. I find this the case with

>travelling escorts to make a city worth a visit.

 

EXACTLY. Proves my point! You did nothing. You didn’t offer a lower price … they simply realized that you were interested and just not willing to pay their rates so THEY initiated the bargain. Someone get the winner a Teddy bear. He gets it….I hope 

[SAdler]

OOps, wrong reply

[SAdler]

>If you can’t afford someone else. Move onto another person.

>Don’t tell them that they’re not worth that because the fact

>that you want to hire them is proof enough that you want them

>and they must be doing something right. If you walk away, and

>that happens enough, maybe that escort will re-evaluate their

>fee structure. What the point is is that it’s THEIR decision,

>not yours.

>

 

>I've read all of your replies with interest. You've clearly given the matter some thought, which is not >surprising. But I disagree with you on a number of points.

 

As you are entitled. I’m also entitled to respond considering the subject matter, as long as you don’t tell me that I, the person with the “experience,” is wrong.

 

>First, you say above (and have said at least one prior time in this thread), "If you can't afford...". You >seem to assume that someone who is offering to negotiate rates with you cannot afford your services. >I would like to point out that there is a very significant difference between not being able to afford >something and believing that something does not represent good value at the price at which it is >offered.

 

Well then here’s an even LESS politically correct statement. Stop being so cheap! Congratulations. You can afford it. But then why on EARTH would you presume to bargain. THAT is insulting.

 

EXAMPLE: I worked at Starbucks for three years, at a variety of locations and socially diverse classes were definitely a part of that. We had everyone from homeless people, to trailer trash, producers, B-List and EVEN A-List celebrities. Yes I know. AMAZING. An Iced Venti Latte costs about $4.00 on average across the US. Three shots of espresso, $2.70. If you buy three shots of espresso over ice in a Venti cup, you can go over to the condiment bar and fill up your cup with milk. Same as a latte; wow, you just saved $1.30.

 

Working class individuals that could have really used the money didn’t bother to play the game because they respect the fact that we the Baristas got screwed and had to go fill the milk container taking away from our ability to serve OTHER customers. The ones who usually pulled this milk scam? The producers and people that rolled up in beamers and benzes that they had recently purchased. Simply because they felt entitled or didn’t respect anyone besides themselves they figured they could pinch their pennies.

 

With escorts. Why make trouble if you don’t need to? If you can afford it, spread the wealth. It’s part of how this industry thrives. The circle of payment from client to escort who will have the respect to be a good client in the future. Those not having been working guys CAN’T understand the mentality behind working because they themselves have NOT been there.

 

>I know you don't care for the product comparisons, but simple examples often make good economic >examples. If I'm in a grocery store and I see a loaf of my favorite whole-wheat bread offered for >$0.99, I might think that's a very good value and buy a couple of loaves. On the other hand, if I see it >offered for $99.00, I'd think the store was nuts (or made a mistake) and I wouldn't buy any. The fact >that I wouldn't choose to buy a loaf of bread for $99.00 should not lead one to conclude that I do not >like the bread or that I cannot afford to pay $99.00 for a loaf; certainly I can, just as anyone here >could. But I wouldn't, because it would not represent good value.

 

Getting back to the grocery store and the market place, it’s all about CONTEXT and you’re comparing apples and oranges. If you went to a market place or farmer’s market where you are EXPECTED to bargain, think of it this way. The same loaf of bread is offered for $2. Are you going to offer a quarter or something like $1, $1.50. Do you see the differentiation as to why in context some offers are ok and others are obscene? Of course the 99 cents versus 99 dollars is OBSCENE. But likewise, offering someone $199 dollars instead of $199,000 for their Bentley is along a different premise. When you’re discussing escorts fees, you have to keep that in mind. If the quotes fee is $300 (and we’ve established you can afford it), then what do you have to gain from offering $250 except to cheat someone out of $50 who could really NEED it. If the difference you’re offering in the context of the base fee is really indifferentiable, it’s TOTALLY insulting to an escort because you’re basically just trying to work them down. All so you can feel better when you are calculating your expenses? That makes you even MORE wrong if you can afford it.

 

>Similarly, when I'm on the road and considing hiring an escort, that choice represents just one way I >can spend my evening or whatever time is available to me. I could just as well read a book, catch a >movie, go to a good restaurant, spend time calling friends, etc. Given that, if I decide I do want to hire >an escort, I will see who is available at that particular time and place. If none of the escorts interest >me, I will not hire any, regardless of the price. On the other hand, if several interest me, I will

 

Thus far you’re proving my points. Thank You, but please, continue 

 

>compare the price they are charging, just as I would compare the price of several cars I might be >considering purchasing. If my interest in all is equal -- which it wll might be, if I haven't previously >met any of them -- and one price is clearly favorable, I'll probably call that person first. If our >conversation is satisfactory, that's where it stops and I won't call the others at all. If it's not, I'll try the >next. In this context, Woodlawn is correct: there are times when escorts beome commodities, where >any one of a list can be substituted for another with relative ease.

 

Exactly. But as per the entire discussion, you have yet to discuss BARGAINING. The point is, you’re not “vesting” an interest in anyone in particular at this point, you’re just trying to get laid. Anyone will do. If you’re looking to hire someone for an “experience” only they can give, what is the point of telling them they’re not worth what they say they are?

 

>If I were an escort and I heard that, I'd probably be a bit miffed at first. I wouldn't like hearing that >I'm just like one of the other guys who are available. But that would be ego talking, rejecting the idea >that I am not a truly unique, one-of-a-kind person with individual worth. Certainly every escort is just >that: as unique as any of us. But -- and here's the rub (no pun intended) -- the SERVICES offered by >escorts are not unique. When it comes to at least some clients, the services offered by many escorts >are interchangeable. And, unfortunately, I can attest after many years of experience as a client, that >many escorts do little or nothing to make their services unique or memorable.

Yes but here is where I challenge you. Maybe the services are completely interchangeable. How do you know that without having hired someone? How can you dare to presume that since their services are all the same you can OFFER something less? What nobody in this thread seems to get is my arguments are not coming from finance or greed, it’s about respect and considering the other parties involved. Acknowledging they aren’t just pieces of meat to be haggled over.

 

>In this context, escorts become a lot like doctors and attorneys -- when hired for certain purposes. For >example, if I have a cut that needs a few stitches or a will that needs to be altered in a minor way, >almost any doctor at the ER or almost any attorney can do the job.

 

Uh huh. I said that  In fact, I got YELLED at for saying that!

 

>On the other hand, if I'm looking for a surgeon to perform brain surgery on my mother or an attorney >to handle an important, complex legal matter, competence is the primary consideration; price would >only become a consideration, if at all, if faced with two professionals who I was convinced could >equally handle the difficult task ahead. For me, the choice of an escort never rises to this level. Why? >Because, as you say, escorts are a luxury. Hiring an escort is simply about having fun. It's never a >necessity or even a matter of great importantance. It's about having fun.

 

OK. So in this case can you see how “having fun” can be a unique experience as important to getting right as a skilled surgeon or high powered attorney? Although somewhere in this thread I refuted the idea of skilled surgeon or empowered attorney because in the long run the law is the law and the brains composure has been the same in all med schools. Granted some surgeons and attorneys are stupid, but you hire each with the expectation they are more than competent to complete the task. Likewise, all escorts might be competent, but if you insist on hiring a particular one or want one so much you are proposing a bargain, it’s obvious they are the “specialized surgeon” you’re looking to hire.

 

>But that's only from the client's perspective. From the escort's perspective, it's about earning money -- >a matter of considerably greater importance, especially for those escorts for whom escorting is their >sole source of income. It's not surprising, then, that escorts often don't like to enter into negotiations >that they often view as an attempt to reduce their income.

 

It’s not so much a reduction of income. It goes to credibility, respect, and reputation. That’s the important factor to consider here. Again, please don’t presume the escort’s perspective. I don’t presume a client’s perspective, I’d appreciate if the escorting community were afforded the same courtesy.

 

>Some escorts never negotiate and that is certainly their right. If someone says that they don't >negotiate, I accept that -- and may well walk away. We each get to conduct our business as we see fit, >so long as the market allows us to earn enough income to satisfy our needs and desires. But escorts >who refuse to negotiate, out of a naive notion that it's somehow insulting to them, are probably doing >themselves a disservice.

 

Are you calling me naïve because I make more than enough money not negotiating? Are you compounding the insult by calling me names because I feel insulted? That’s respectful. I do myself no disservice because I live life however I want to and enjoy every moment of it and never “want” for anything. Tell me more about the disservices I’m doing myself please. 

 

>Escorts often write here that an offer to negotiate their services is insulting to them. I think that's >naive, if for no other reason that the very offer indicates that the prospective client recognizes that the >services offered by the escort have real value. From this point of view, any offer of negotiation is an >acclamation of value. And negotiations do not need to end up with less money in the escort's pocket >by any means.

 

Correction, not an acclamation of value but a NEGATION thereof. We have set the value. Would you go to a gallery show, walk up to a painting valued by the artist at $5000 and offer him $2500? Do you know what that would DO? How INSULTING that would be? THINK ABOUT IT. GET OUT OF YOUR WALLET FOR A SECOND AND CONSIDER SOMEONE’S FEELINGS. Consider their personal thoughts, emotions, motivations. If an artist prices a painting based on the amount of SOUL they put into a piece of art; how shall an escort price themselves, by how many morals they’re negotiating by sleeping with someone they aren’t attracted to? The META thought I’m trying to give you people is that escorts are human beings with thoughts and emotions and feelings. The sooner clients stop thinking of them as something to buy then the whole NOTION of negotiating will disappear.

 

>Indeed, if an escort is charging an hourly rate that I think is higher than I want to pay, I often ask if >they offer a lower hourly rate for a longer period of time. An escort who charges $300 per hour will >generally not get my business. However, if that same escort agrees to $400 for two hours, we might >both be happy.

 

Two hours of what? In theory, there are MANY like that. And again, you asked if they offer a lower rate for longer period of time. The ball is again in THEIR court. You’re also not SUGGESTING a value, you’re leaving it up to them. Very respectful. In that situation I might have a number like $500 in mind. If you were to SUGGEST $300 I’d be insulted.

 

>Negotiations, when respectfully conducted in recognition of the fact that both parties are bringing >something of value to the table, should not be insulting to either party.

 

Whoa whoa whoa. Pennies are valuable. Just because you bring them to the table doesn’t mean I should feel respected. Respect matters that you CONSIDER the other person and not just fulfill your own desires.

 

>Even if a negotiation fails, which they often do, it's not because one party is bad or evil; it simply >means that no agreement acceptable to both parties is possible at this time.

 

I would never presume someone evil until I checked with my cards. I might start including readings with my sessions. But I digress. This isn’t a plea agreement where no party leaves happy indicates success. The mater is how it is approached and when the parties recognize and respectfully acknowledge what rolls they are to play and which they are not.

 

>Frankly, if I were an escort and my goal was to make as much money from escorting as possible, I'd >be attempting to negotiate all kinds of deals with various clients. I'd be seeking a mix of last-minute >appointments at high rates plus steady, dependable appointments with known clients at a lower rate in >exchange for guaranteed frequency, special rates for multi-day trips, and so on and so on.

 

LOL. Excuse my laughing. I woke up half the plane. Babe, If you could do that then Kudos to you but I reiterate, don’t tell me what you would do until you’ve flow 3000 miles in my sandals. You don’t know what that life is until you do it and you should never presume it’s so easy  That’s in a “perfect” world according to clients and “considered” by escorts. But really, utopia is a few millennia from now.

 

>If I were an escort, the one thing I'd remember at all times would be that my own self-worth is not >based on anything offered to me by any client at any time, good or bad. But the economic value of the >SERVICES that I offer may well go up and down with the market, based on time of day, day of the >week, geographic location, state of the national economy, or any one of a host of different factors.

 

You started off strong with this paragraph. You are still saying that a PERSON’S self WORTH is based on other people. You’d be a BAD therapist. Simple as that. Of course prices should be within a general price range. If the going rate of a city is $250/hr and someone is charging $500/hr I’d have to question what was going through their mind. But frankly, if they can get that then they have nothing to worry about now do they?

 

If you were an escort, if you were this, if the world exploded. That’s the point. You’re not. You weren’t. You won’t be. Don’t presume to call me naïve and tell me what I should be doing. That’s not simply insulting, it’s foolish on your part.

[SAdler]

::tear::

 

I love it when they get it

[SAdler]

>Ever thought about reading a book? There are probably one or

>two books in existence worth reading that you have not yet

>read.

 

I’m actually in the middle of several at the moment. One on Audio and one paperback. I just find that when I have the internet available to me it’s the most productive. Further more if I didn’t get on this thing to defend myself when the shit is coming from every which way I’d get too backlogged and who wants to spend a month in New York responding to bitchy snide remarks?

 

>Please look up the definition of "circular argument." You are

>using the term incorrectly.

 

Circular arguments is referencing the fact that I bring up respects and you guys keep bringing it back to price wars. I’m a college graduate, I think I can handle basic rhetoric definition.

 

>You could say that. Or you could say that I am telling him

>what his services are worth to me.

 

AND THAT IS THE INSULT! DO YOU NOT GET THAT?

 

>In each case the client is using words that tell the escort

>the issue is price: "too much" or "out of my range." Those

>words tell the escort the client would be willing to hire if

>the price were lower. They open the door to bargaining. They

>also do what you say the client should never do -- they tell

>the escort that to the client he is not worth the price he is

>asking.

 

No. They tell the escort that the CLIENT is not willing to spend that. Giving a specific dollar amount is overall insulting. By using those phrases what you are saying is, “That’s too much for me but I’d be interested if you had a lower price.” There’s no need to suggest the price, if the escort is willing to go lower, they obviously will! If not, MOVE ON.

>

>I think Boston Guy put the matter very well in his most recent

>post. A lot of clients are looking for certain services that

>a large number of escorts are capable of providing. For them,

>one escort is just as good as another.

 

Please see my response to Boston Guy 

>

>That's okay. There are lots and lots of escorts who are

>perfectly willing to do so, and lots and lots of clients who

>are satisfied with the services of those escorts.

 

Then go to them. That’s the point. 

 

 

>I won't go to the trouble, but I do seem to recall that the

>thread was about the comparative difficulty of finding clients

>willing to pay your price in San Francisco as opposed to L.A.

>

Um, couldn’t be me. Have never been to SF while “gay and working” and have made no plans to do so. Trust me, you’re mistaken. But thanks for taking the cowards way out of not proving you made a mistake, very mature.

 

>As BG and I have both said, there are lots of clients who want

>services that any number of escorts can supply, just as there

>are lots of patients who want routine services that any

>competent doctor can perform. It's appropriate for them to

>bargain because they are not looking for something "unique."

 

LOL. That’s the point. With an ESCORT you have NO idea what is unique and what is not. In a sexual context, you can ask several clients about certain skills I possess that would put a sword swallower to shame. In every other context, the details are truly endless. I’m a person, I have a brain. This is where it comes down to the difference between ESCORTS and HOOKERS. Just service with a smile, or intelligence and company behind the smile.

 

>Some people just enjoy haggling. I have a relative who is

>like that. He will even haggle with a cab driver over the

>amount of the fare. He doesn't need to economize and can

>afford to pay any amount of money for anything he wants, but

>he loves bargaining for its own sake.

 

Sorry. That’s rude and pathetic. There’s a time and a place for haggling. A cab-fare of all things is just wrong. Those people drive around all night to feed their families and you want to take a dollar off the price so they can’t have rice-a-roni one night so you can feel better about yourself? I have a long tirade set up for that but that’s just WRONG

 

>You are free to get as upset as you like. For me and for a

>lot of other clients, however, it's about the money.

 

Which just shows (and you are freely admitting it) what a selfish disrespectful issue this is. Quo Erat Demonstratum. And Yes, I’m well aware of the latin translation and it DOES apply Woodlawn. Thank you.

[Boston Guy]

>As you are entitled. I’m also entitled to respond considering

>the subject matter, as long as you don’t tell me that I, the

>person with the “experience,” is wrong.

>

 

You seem to forget that clients have experience, too.

 

>Well then here’s an even LESS politically correct statement.

>Stop being so cheap! Congratulations. You can afford it.

>But then why on EARTH would you presume to bargain. THAT is

>insulting.

>

 

First, I'm not trying to be politically correct. Second, you seem to lack any real understanding of the concept of value. If I followed your logic, I would buy anything that I have enough money to pay for, whether or not the good or service being purchased represented good value for my money. That's not only unrealistic, it is naive.

 

 

>EXAMPLE: I worked at Starbucks for three years, at a variety

>of locations and socially diverse classes were definitely a

>part of that. We had everyone from homeless people, to

>trailer trash, producers, B-List and EVEN A-List celebrities.

>Yes I know. AMAZING. An Iced Venti Latte costs about $4.00

>on average across the US. Three shots of espresso, $2.70. If

>you buy three shots of espresso over ice in a Venti cup, you

>can go over to the condiment bar and fill up your cup with

>milk. Same as a latte; wow, you just saved $1.30.

>

 

There are those who would call that being a smart consumer. Most of the wealthiest people I know acquired their wealth through a combination of careful acquisition of resources and even more careful use of the resources they had accumlated. You may call them cheap; it wouldn't bother them one bit. It may not be an accident that the people you saw being prudent shoppers were the ones with the money.

 

 

>With escorts. Why make trouble if you don’t need to? If you

>can afford it, spread the wealth. It’s part of how this

>industry thrives. The circle of payment from client to escort

>who will have the respect to be a good client in the future.

>Those not having been working guys CAN’T understand the

>mentality behind working because they themselves have NOT been

>there.

>

 

Pardon me for saying this, but I think that's a load of crap. Virtually everyone started someplace. With the possible exception of trust fund babies, most people have had to work hard for their money. I doubt very many escorts would be willing to trade their jobs for one digging ditches, working long hours at retail establishments, being a plumber or doing any one of the thousands of things people do to get by.

 

 

 

>Getting back to the grocery store and the market place, it’s

>all about CONTEXT and you’re comparing apples and oranges. If

>you went to a market place or farmer’s market where you are

>EXPECTED to bargain, think of it this way. The same loaf of

>bread is offered for $2. Are you going to offer a quarter or

>something like $1, $1.50. Do you see the differentiation as

>to why in context some offers are ok and others are obscene?

 

No, I do not. But I think some offers are laughable and should be readily refused.

 

 

>Of course the 99 cents versus 99 dollars is OBSCENE. But

>likewise, offering someone $199 dollars instead of $199,000

>for their Bentley is along a different premise. When you’re

>discussing escorts fees, you have to keep that in mind. If

>the quotes fee is $300 (and we’ve established you can afford

>it), then what do you have to gain from offering $250 except

>to cheat someone out of $50 who could really NEED it. If the

>difference you’re offering in the context of the base fee is

>really indifferentiable, it’s TOTALLY insulting to an escort

>because you’re basically just trying to work them down. All

>so you can feel better when you are calculating your expenses?

> That makes you even MORE wrong if you can afford it.

>

 

 

I will repeat that I think you do not have a good understanding of the concept of value. You seem to think that the value of something is equal to whatever price the seller has attached to it. Unfortunately, that is often not the case; in some contexts, it's seldom the case (real estate springs most quickly to mind).

 

 

>Exactly. But as per the entire discussion, you have yet to

>discuss BARGAINING. The point is, you’re not “vesting” an

>interest in anyone in particular at this point, you’re just

>trying to get laid. Anyone will do. If you’re looking to

>hire someone for an “experience” only they can give, what is

>the point of telling them they’re not worth what they say they

>are?

>

 

Why should I accept the word of an unknown person that their services are worth whatever they happen to say they are worth? On what basis should I blindly accept that, especially if my experience in the past suggests that the price being charged for the services is high enough that I am unlikely to consider the services a good value at that price?

 

 

>How can you dare to presume that since

>their services are all the same you can OFFER something less?

 

In any market, there is a wide range of pricing offered by escorts for what on paper are the same services. Years of experience have taught me that there's often little difference between lower-priced and higher-priced escorts. (Actually, I've found that lower-priced escorts are often more fun and arrive with far less attitude.) Given this, I see nothing wrong at all in making a respectful offer to an escort I'm interested in.

 

Oddly, escorts that I've spent more than a little time with consider me quite generous; one recently told me that he's going to start rolling out the red carpet at the airport when I arrive in his town. Being a smart consumer has nothing whatsoever to do with being cheap or generous.

 

 

>What nobody in this thread seems to get is my arguments are

>not coming from finance or greed, it’s about respect and

>considering the other parties involved. Acknowledging they

>aren’t just pieces of meat to be haggled over.

>

 

Nobody seems to get it because it's not true. You can say it's true but that doesn't make it true. It's entirely about money. If you offered your services for $10.00 per hour, you'd have people lined up at your door for as many hours as you stay awake. If you offered your services for $10,000.00 per hour, you'd find far fewer takers, if any, for the exact same services. What we are discussing is arriving at a fair value for a service being offered for sale. You contend that the value is always equal to whatever the seller says it is. I don't believe that to be the case. I can understand why you might want it to be so, but that still doesn't make it true. And it has nothing to do with respect. It's easy to like and respect someone a great deal but still be unwilling to purchase their product or service because the price is too high to represent good value. It happens a million times a day all over the country.

 

 

>OK. So in this case can you see how “having fun” can be a

>unique experience as important to getting right as a skilled

>surgeon or high powered attorney?

 

LOL... No, of course not. Not in a million years would I equate getting together with an escort with having an operation go right or completing an important business deal. I'm not sure how you reached a point where you would think these would be of equal importance but I doubt many people here would agree with you.

 

 

>Although somewhere in this

>thread I refuted the idea of skilled surgeon or empowered

>attorney because in the long run the law is the law and the

>brains composure has been the same in all med schools.

>Granted some surgeons and attorneys are stupid, but you hire

>each with the expectation they are more than competent to

>complete the task. Likewise, all escorts might be competent,

>but if you insist on hiring a particular one or want one so

>much you are proposing a bargain, it’s obvious they are the

>“specialized surgeon” you’re looking to hire.

>

 

Choosing an escort is much like choosing a good novel or deciding what movie to go see. It's simply about having fun. I usually enjoy the novels I read and the movies I see. Likewise, I've been really fortunate over the years to have found many terrific escorts and have had many great times with them. But, for me, at least, choosing an escort would never, ever rise to a level of any real importance.

 

Also, I think you lack a full understanding of the kinds of study, work and preparation that are needed before one is considered qualified to practice medicine or law or work as an engineer or architect or any one of many other similar professions.

 

 

>It’s not so much a reduction of income. It goes to

>credibility, respect, and reputation. That’s the important

>factor to consider here. Again, please don’t presume the

>escort’s perspective. I don’t presume a client’s perspective,

>I’d appreciate if the escorting community were afforded the

>same courtesy.

>

 

Actually, Scott, you presume the client's perspective in everything you say. For example, on a most basic level, you presume that someone who is making an offer to you is doing so out of a lack of respect or because they cannot afford to pay more.

 

 

>>Escorts often write here that an offer to negotiate their

>services is insulting to them. I think that's >naive, if for

>no other reason that the very offer indicates that the

>prospective client recognizes that the >services offered by

>the escort have real value. From this point of view, any offer

>of negotiation is an >acclamation of value. And negotiations

>do not need to end up with less money in the escort's pocket

>>by any means.

>

>Correction, not an acclamation of value but a NEGATION

>thereof. We have set the value.

 

No. You have set a price. The value perceived by the client may well be very different than the price you have set. Further, if the client does not perceive any value, then no offer at all would be forthcoming. That's pretty fundamental to all negotiation.

 

 

>Would you go to a gallery

>show, walk up to a painting valued by the artist at $5000 and

>offer him $2500? Do you know what that would DO? How

>INSULTING that would be? THINK ABOUT IT. GET OUT OF YOUR

>WALLET FOR A SECOND AND CONSIDER SOMEONE’S FEELINGS.

 

Do you honestly think that all art is purchased at the sticker price? I don't. Further, the value of an object or service has nothing to do with the feelings of the person who is providing it. The value has to with whatever utility -- in the broadest sense of that word -- it will have for the purchaser. People who negotiate for a living strip emotion from their perception of whatever is being negotiated for and look at it for what it is. People who don't do that often end up paying too much for they buy. Ask any real estate agent about that one.

 

 

>Consider

>their personal thoughts, emotions, motivations. If an artist

>prices a painting based on the amount of SOUL they put into a

>piece of art; how shall an escort price themselves, by how

>many morals they’re negotiating by sleeping with someone they

>aren’t attracted to?

 

Escorts make a decision to escort entirely on their own. If they feel they are compromising their morals or otherwise engaging in activities that are distasteful to them, they should find another way of making a living. But that has nothing to do with the value they bring to a particular client unless, of course, their dislike for what they are doing causes them to provide their client with less than stellar service.

 

 

>The META thought I’m trying to give you

>people is that escorts are human beings with thoughts and

>emotions and feelings. The sooner clients stop thinking of

>them as something to buy then the whole NOTION of negotiating

>will disappear.

 

Are you saying that escorts are going to provide their services for free? If not, then I think clients are right to consider escort services as something to buy. It's like any other transaction in which something is offered in return for a monetary payment. Not understanding this basic notion is pretty surprising.

 

 

>Two hours of what? In theory, there are MANY like that.

 

I'm not sure exactly what you are asking. But what I would expect to purchase would be two hours of an escorts time, at the same general level of quality that he would provide during a one-hour appointment. If an escort agreed to a two-hour meeting and then provided sub-standard service because he didn't like the terms of the agreement he had agreed to, well, shame on him. We should all live up to our agreements.

 

 

>And

>again, you asked if they offer a lower rate for longer period

>of time. The ball is again in THEIR court. You’re also not

>SUGGESTING a value, you’re leaving it up to them. Very

>respectful. In that situation I might have a number like $500

>in mind. If you were to SUGGEST $300 I’d be insulted.

>

 

You seem to be rather easily insulted. But you do seem to understand the concept that two hours might be priced lower than two times a one-hour rate. The question then becomes what rate is appropriate. In my opinion, the easiest way to determine the answer to that question is through a simple negotiation that respects both parties.

 

If, however, you find the concept of negotiation insulting, you shouldn't engage in negotiations. If someone tells me a price is non-negotiable, I accept that. The ball is then in my court and I need to decide if the asking price represents good value. I may decide it does but I may well simply decline to purchase whatever is being sold.

 

 

>>Negotiations, when respectfully conducted in recognition of

>the fact that both parties are bringing >something of value to

>the table, should not be insulting to either party.

>

>Whoa whoa whoa. Pennies are valuable. Just because you bring

>them to the table doesn’t mean I should feel respected.

>Respect matters that you CONSIDER the other person and not

>just fulfill your own desires.

 

I find your response interesting here, on a number of levels. My first thought was to wonder why you are escorting. One presumes that most people work to make money. One hopes that people are able to work at something that they enjoy. But, generally, one doesn't work to gain respect.

 

You seem to consistently diminish the value of the money that the client is paying for the services you offer. You've done that in this thread and also in your replies to Woodlawn. Yet one would expect that the money you earn is precisely what you are working for.

 

Saying "pennies are valuable" is quite condescending to what your clients are providing. The agreement, if I understand it, is that they pay you for agreed-upon services. In other words, you provide services and they provide money. Each party is bringing something that the other one values. Yet you condescendingly dismiss the payment as "pennies are valuable." This is the kind of attitude I have occasionally encountered with high-priced escorts who have become drunk on the constant fawning praise of clients and who consequently end up with an entirely too large consideration of their own value.

 

 

>>If I were an escort, the one thing I'd remember at all times

>would be that my own self-worth is not >based on anything

>offered to me by any client at any time, good or bad. But the

>economic value of the >SERVICES that I offer may well go up

>and down with the market, based on time of day, day of the

>>week, geographic location, state of the national economy, or

>any one of a host of different factors.

>

>You started off strong with this paragraph. You are still

>saying that a PERSON’S self WORTH is based on other people.

 

I'm not sure where you get that. I said self-worth is not based on anything offered by any client. Self-worth is internal and generally self-created. But it is entirely separate from the economic value of the services that any one of us might be able to offer at any time.

 

 

>You’d be a BAD therapist. Simple as that. Of course prices

>should be within a general price range. If the going rate of

>a city is $250/hr and someone is charging $500/hr I’d have to

>question what was going through their mind. But frankly, if

>they can get that then they have nothing to worry about now do

>they?

>

 

Not at all. I think escorts should charge as much as they can charge. Why work for less than the true economic value of your services? On the other hand, I think clients have just as much right to decide what they want to pay and to walk away at any time. It's just supply and demand. The difference between us, though, is that I know good negotiations can bring about agreements in which all parties are very happy. You don't understand that and thus see offers to negotiate as insulting. That's not that surprising: most Americans are unused to negotiating for much of anything. But that has nothing to do with the value of negotiation; it simply speaks to a lack of experience with it.

 

 

BG

[N.N.]

>Correction, not an acclamation of value but a NEGATION

>thereof. We have set the value. Would you go to a gallery

>show, walk up to a painting valued by the artist at $5000 and

>offer him $2500? Do you know what that would DO? How

>INSULTING that would be? THINK ABOUT IT. GET OUT OF YOUR

>WALLET FOR A SECOND AND CONSIDER SOMEONE’S FEELINGS. Consider

>their personal thoughts, emotions, motivations. If an artist

>prices a painting based on the amount of SOUL they put into a

>piece of art; how shall an escort price themselves, by how

>many morals they’re negotiating by sleeping with someone they

>aren’t attracted to? The META thought I’m trying to give you

>people is that escorts are human beings with thoughts and

>emotions and feelings. The sooner clients stop thinking of

>them as something to buy then the whole NOTION of negotiating

>will disappear.

 

As soon as the artist puts a price tag on a painting,

they have stepped into the world of commerce. The painting

may represent a piece of their soul, but the artist put the

$5000 price on it.

 

You suggest that we don't understand what an escort's life

(or an artist's life) is like. Give us more credit. I work

in a creative field; I got into it because I like the work;

I pay attention to detail and take pride in what I do. But I

have come to realize that when I offer my services for a fee,

I am engaging in commerce. I have to drop the idea of taking

negotiation personally. When a client wants to negotiate,

I don't think "you don't understand me," "you insult me,"

"you're telling me I'm not worth it," and so on. This is

a lesson it behooves any professional to learn.

 

There are people offering individualized, "soulful" services

every day: architects, musicians, landscaping designers, you

name it. They understand the nature of commerce; they learn

not to take negotiation so personally.

 

 

>The varies, I'll be blunt is a new way to do the business

>even less legally. I'm admitting to it, my rates are based

>on the service. That's what varies is.

 

In other words, it costs more if a fuck is involved rather

than just a blowjob. You want to have it both ways: you

want to engage in commerce, but how dare the client even

ask whether the rates are negotiable.

[woodlawn]

>I’m actually in the middle of several at the moment. One on

>Audio and one paperback. I just find that when I have the

>internet available to me it’s the most productive.

 

Productive of what? According to your last post to me, you seem to think this discussion is a waste of your time.

 

>Further

>more if I didn’t get on this thing to defend myself when the

>shit is coming from every which way I’d get too backlogged and

>who wants to spend a month in New York responding to bitchy

>snide remarks?

 

Who told you that you have to respond at all? Did the escorts of America elect you their representative to speak for them on this issue? If not, why do you think you have an obligation to talk about this if you really don't WANT to?

 

 

>Circular arguments is referencing the fact that I bring up

>respects and you guys keep bringing it back to price wars.

>I’m a college graduate, I think I can handle basic rhetoric

>definition.

 

The term "circular argument" does not refer to the subject of the argument, as you suggest, but to its structure. George Bush graduated from Yale, but he still can't figure out how to pronounce "nuclear."

 

>>You could say that. Or you could say that I am telling him

>>what his services are worth to me.

>

>AND THAT IS THE INSULT! DO YOU NOT GET THAT?

 

No, I don't get that. You seem to equate that statement with the statement, "You are bad at what you do." I see no relationship between the two, however.

 

> There’s no need to suggest the price, if the

>escort is willing to go lower, they obviously will! If not,

>MOVE ON.

 

BG and NN have both tried to explain to you how inappropriate it is for someone who sells his services to get insulted simply because a prospective customer wants to negotiate the price of those services. I really don't think I can make it any clearer than they have.

 

>Please see my response to Boston Guy

 

I did.

 

>>That's okay. There are lots and lots of escorts who are

>>perfectly willing to do so, and lots and lots of clients who

>>are satisfied with the services of those escorts.

 

>Then go to them. That’s the point.

 

I do. That's why I have never had any trouble finding an escort at the price I want.

 

>Um, couldn’t be me. Have never been to SF while “gay and

>working” and have made no plans to do so. Trust me, you’re

>mistaken. But thanks for taking the cowards way out of not

>proving you made a mistake, very mature.

 

I suppose it's possible I have you confused with one of the many, many escorts listed on this site who have a fake name similar to the one you use. If you want to avoid that sort of thing, you might try coming up with something more original.

 

 

>LOL. That’s the point. With an ESCORT you have NO idea what

>is unique and what is not.

 

But like many clients I am not looking for something "unique." I am perfectly happy with an escort who can do certain basic things in a competent manner. I think most clients are.

 

> In a sexual context, you can ask

>several clients about certain skills I possess that would put

>a sword swallower to shame.

 

I'm not going to touch that one.

 

 

>This is where it comes down to the difference between ESCORTS

>and HOOKERS. Just service with a smile, or intelligence and

>company behind the smile.

 

I'm not interested in hiring an escort in order to discuss monetary policy or whether 'Pillowman' should win the Pulitzer Prize for drama. I have actual friends for that -- you know, people who are willing to spend time with you without being paid?

 

>>Some people just enjoy haggling.

 

 

>Sorry. That’s rude and pathetic.

>I have a long tirade set up for that but that’s just WRONG

 

Take my advice -- never go to the Mideast or North Africa. There, merchants and service providers of all kinds get insulted if you DON'T haggle. I'm afraid you are something of a cultural chauvinist.

 

>>You are free to get as upset as you like. For me and for a

>>lot of other clients, however, it's about the money.

 

>Which just shows (and you are freely admitting it) what a

>selfish disrespectful issue this is.

 

You just can't seem to get your mind around the fact that money is the issue that drives all business transactions. Real professionals in any business don't find the subject of money "selfish" or "disrespectful." They're in business to make money, not to amuse themselves, and they recognize that their customers want to get value for money.

 

On the other hand, perhaps you do understand that but pretend you don't. I have known one or two escorts who post here to pretend that there is something about escorting other than exchanging sex for money because they want to make clients feel guilty for being concerned about the price of what they are buying. That probably works with some clients, but not with me.

[ErikMcAlister]

"Quo Erat Demonstratum. And Yes, I’m well aware of the latin translation and it DOES apply Woodlawn."

 

Too bad you fucked up the Latin anyway!

quod erat demonstrandum is what you MEANT to say.

 

Don't you just love it when they try to be intellectual & witty at the same time, yet simply show the fools/morons they really are? I do.

[SAdler]

>Too bad you fucked up the Latin anyway!

>quod erat demonstrandum is what you MEANT to say.

 

The latin phrase is that of a transliteration. The original dialect has made it open to interpretation as to how it is spelled directly into English. Another example is Hebrew. Are you going to chastise me for writing Hannukah VS. Chanuka VS. Hanuka VS. … you get my drift. Mathematically, in terms of a PROOF the transliteration was accurate. It’s even quite possible, though it would shock me, that you are right and when referring to specific nouns or pronouns the spelling you provided is correct.

>

>Don't you just love it when they try to be intellectual &

>witty at the same time, yet simply show the fools/morons they

>really are? I do.

 

These message boards are for people who are mature enough to have respectful dialogue on a topic. Why don’t you stick to your “anarchy” board where you can discuss whatever pathetic little detail you like and make fun of whomever you want. Here, people all mature enough NOT to call each other names and show foolish they are.