Kip O'Brien's response 2/23

[AaronScottDC]

RE: You say "Po-tAY-to", I say "Po-tAH-to"

 

Hey all!

 

Since I am an escort, I don't have to think very hard to put myself in the shoes of someone who was being under paid by a client. So, I can tell you exactly what my reaction would be. First, I would very politely, but firmly remind the client of my rate and give them another chance to rectify the situation on his next visit. If, on the next visit, he choose to continue to try to under pay me, then I certainly wouldn't attempt to steal from him; instead I would simply stop seeing him. To quote another motherly advice remark, "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me." It would not at all be acceptable to order a $50 meal in a restaurant and only offer to pay $30 for it. If you tried to do it, the management would be more than a little upset and I am sure you would not be welcome in that restaurant again. Same goes for me.

 

I just couldn't resist chipping in my two cents! :-)

 

Aaron Scott DC

[Guest Thunderbuns]

RE: You say "Po-tAY-to", I say "Po-tAH-to"

 

>Interesting dialogue in the "Ask an Escort" forum in the

>thread about what escorts do if clients don't pay. Bilbo

>(who is pretty well respected here and quite a reasonable

>guy) admits to simply taking money from a client one day who

>he felt was constantly underpaying him. Sound familiar?

 

Your post also sounds familiar! You bitched about the same thing in "Ask an Escort" - What's the point in repeating it all over again?

 

As for my reply - which you probably don't give a rat's ass about - pls see "Ask an Escort"

 

 

Thunderbuns

[Trixie]

RE: You say "Po-tAY-to", I say "Po-tAH-to"

 

Quite a valuable two cents, Aaron. Quite frankly I cannot for the life of me see any way an escort could justify taking the money and running. I've always assumed that the issue of rates is understood before the meeting - whether bargaining is involved or not. If the issue has been clearly discussed, and the client tries to cheat the escort after agreeing to an agreed-upon price, the escort simply has the right to not see him again.

If an escort continously offers a lower rate to a client, for whatever reason, and resents it later, well that's the escort's problem, and not the client's. If an escort believes he's worth more than $100 per hour,

than he shouldn't agree to $100 p.h. even if business is slow. Or, should it be economically necessary, he could always indicate to the client that the reduced price is a "sale" price, and not holding for any future meetings.

In any case, stealing is stealing, and really can't be justified. Since there are unlikely to be any legal recourse in such matters as this, the best thing to do for both escort and client is to act with clarity and dignity. That way, if you're the victim of some slimeball, you can say that you did your best, and come away from the situation without karmic s**t on your face.

[marc anthony]

RE: You say "Po-tAY-to", I say "Po-tAH-to"

 

>

>Your post also sounds familiar! You bitched about the same

>thing in "Ask an Escort" - What's the point in repeating it

>all over again?

>

>As for my reply - which you probably don't give a rat's ass

>about - pls see "Ask an Escort"

>

>

>Thunderbuns

 

If it bothers you that I post in more than one forum, don't read all the fora. You certainly aren't the standard for proper manners on a message board...

 

And obviously I do care about the replies of other members of this board, or I wouldn't post my thoughts here. And even if it irritates you, I will post my reply again here too.

 

You say that Kip threatened to "out" the reviewer, and that this was the major problem. That is true, but on his very next post, Kip apologized and said, " People who know me know that I wouldn't hurt a fly, and I would never do something like that. I was just so upset." Funny, everyone who thinks he is so evil completely ignored that post. And the point of fact is no one was ever outed.

 

It is fine to formulate your own opinions, but at least consider all the evidence. And you may reply to me on as many of the fora that you choose to.

[Guest]

RE: You say

 

>Interesting dialogue in the "Ask an Escort" forum in the

>thread about what escorts do if clients don't pay. Bilbo

>(who is pretty well respected here and quite a reasonable

>guy) admits to simply taking money from a client one day who

>he felt was constantly underpaying him. Sound familiar?

 

Stealing was wrong when Kip did it and it was wrong when Bilbo did it. If a client stiffs an escort, the escort should simply no longer see the client. If the escort continues to see the client, he should know what to expect, and not complain about it. Nevertheless, what was particularly atrocious in Kip's case was his apparent willingness to essentially destroy the client's life by revealing the encounter to the client's family and employer. After some people expressed outrage over Kip's response, Kip has backpedalled and said he'd never have done it.

Did he? Kip's later explanations were clearly riddled with lies. Kip is an admitted thief and a liar, and I put no weight on his statement that he never did it. We're obviously probably not going to hear from the humiliated client. Just the fact that Kip would even think of doing such a thing is very chilling.

I personally cannot imagine hiring either Kip or Bilbo. What would you do if you hired them? Take your pants in with you when you showered? What if they wrote down your credit card numbers? The stealing about it is bad enough, but they brag about it and "justify" their actions later.

I don't expect the escort I hire to be some Saint Francis, but I think one can certainly try to avoid the really bad apples!

[marc anthony]

RE: You say

 

Unicorn: Your analysis is a good one, and perhaps the most level-headed one which concludes that Kip should be avoided. I certainly respect your decision and your conclusions. I do still disagree because having hired lots of twinks, I know they are prone to lots of verbal bravado and poor self-restraint. Usually, however, they are very harmless. Youth... they make a lot of noise but don't usually have the courage to really do harm. Because I like the twink escorts, I guess I have become more tolerant of such behavior, and excuse their occasional transgressions so long as they appear willing to change and mature. However, I certainly would not consider it unreasonable for other clients to be unwilling to take such a risk.

[+ Lucky]

RE: You say

 

Marc, I like your posts. You state that you value other posters opinions, so here goes:

Take off the rose colored glasses, get out of the protective mode and try to look at the whole picture. A lot of guys here who hire escorts think that your Kip is off base. His description of the "whole truth" clearly indicates that his life is a mess and he hangs aroung with someone who is a bad influence. He sounds highly immature. That the thought would cross his mind to out a client speaks volumns about what is in his mind. He doesn't need better spin, he needs to grow up. And everybody, including you, should let him.

You say that youth usually don't have the courage to do harm. You are obviously reading different media than I am. Some of the most horrendous crime is committted by angry confused youths frustrated that their lives suck.

I hope Kip's life does not continue to be the soap that it is, but your continued denial of his danger won't help him either. He needs professional help. IMHO

[Guest DevonSFescort]

RE: You say

 

>Stealing was wrong when Kip did it and it was wrong when

>Bilbo did it. If a client stiffs an escort, the escort

>should simply no longer see the client. If the escort

>continues to see the client, he should know what to expect,

>and not complain about it.

 

Unicorn! I know you're a smart guy who puts a premium on honest behavior, so please reassure me that you don't mean to say that when an escort steals, it's stealing, but when a client steals, it's "stiffing," and as long as the client gets away with it more than once, he's entitled to expect to continue to get away with it.

 

Bilbo's client, alcohol or no alcohol, knew perfectly well that he was ripping Bilbo off. No, I can't imagine putting up with it for as long as Bilbo did, but I'm not in Bilbo's market (leather master in Houston), and I don't presume to know what his options are. Maybe escorts in Houston have to deal with more sketchy behavior from clients then we do here in San Francisco, where escorting has the same kind of de facto legality as smoking pot. At any rate, the fact that Bilbo put up with this guy's scamming for awhile in no way entitled the client to "know to expect" that he could continue to steal in safety and comfort.

 

>I personally cannot imagine hiring either Kip or Bilbo.

>What would you do if you hired them? Take your pants in

>with you when you showered? What if they wrote down your

>credit card numbers?

 

According to Bilbo's story, which is what you're basing your judgement on:

 

>I finally caught him once

>with more money in his pocket than he owed me and

>confiscated the rest of it, which didn't repay all that he

>owed me on his tab.

 

Now, unless they had some kind of payment plan set up, that money was payable on demand NOW (now, being, of course, back then). The client doesn't get to control the terms of when he's going to pay money he owes. Ever seen the security at Tower Records tackle to the ground somebody who tried to leave with a measly $20 CD without paying? It's not nice. It's a pretty confrontational scene. Bilbo, acting as his own security task force, confronted a guy who had stolen much, much more, and unless his story is omitting a great deal, the guy walked away without any injuries, without having to spend the night in jail, and without even having paid all he owed! As thieves go, this guy had it pretty cushy. I'm not sure I favor coddling clients who steal any more than this.

 

The Kipster, on the other hand, says he was "tired of meeting him for $100," which certainly seems to imply that he was letting the client negotiate him down, and that the client had every expectation going into this meeting that the fee, if only for him, was $100. So Kip resents his client (who I'm willing to stipulate was probably a creep) over a choice that Kip himself freely made, and decides to punish the client for that choice, through an act of trickery. Doesn't look very po-TAY-to po-TAH-to to me.

 

>I don't expect the escort I hire to be some Saint Francis,

>but I think one can certainly try to avoid the really bad

>apples!

 

Agreed, and I know that people, including escorts, aren't exactly like their message board personas, but if Bilbo's one of the really bad apples, I have been thoroughly conned. I can't think of many more gentle people on this board than Bilbo, and now he's told this one story and suddenly he's a thug? At worst, he could be accused of vigilante justice, which is often the best kind of justice an escort can hope for.

[MiamiLooker]

RE: You say

 

"The Kipster, on the other hand, says he was "tired of meeting him

for $100," which certainly seems to imply that he was letting the client negotiate him down, and that the client had every expectation going into this meeting that the fee, if only for him, was $100."

 

I've read nothing that implies there was any negotiation by the client to reach this fee. Maybe Kip's rent was due and there were no better prospects....

[Guest Thunderbuns]

RE: You say "Po-tAY-to", I say "Po-tAH-to"

 

>If it bothers you that I post in more than one forum, don't

>read all the fora.

 

I'm amazed that you have soo much time on your hands.........

 

>You certainly aren't the standard for proper manners on a message >board...

 

Never said I was! But all things considered, I don't think my manners are overly obnoxious. I may be blunt, but I don't resort to calling others assholes as some posters do.

 

>You say that Kip threatened to "out" the reviewer, and that

>this was the major problem. That is true, but on his very

>next post, Kip apologized and said, " People who know me

>know that I wouldn't hurt a fly, and I would never do

>something like that. I was just so upset." Funny, everyone

>who thinks he is so evil completely ignored that post. And

>the point of fact is no one was ever outed.

 

I think you are living in a state of denial. Please read Unicorn's post # 54, and Lucky's post # 56. They state very clearly all I would say to you in this regard.

 

>It is fine to formulate your own opinions, but at least

>consider all the evidence.

 

I have considered all the evidence - you should too!

 

Thunderbuns

[guyinsf]

RE: You say "Po-tAY-to", I say "Po-tAH-to"

 

I read this thread when it was initially started but then ignored it until today. What drama! Where is Mary J. Blige when you need her?

 

Honestly, the thing that sticks out for me is that I cannot make sense of Kip's explanations. Was there a client whom he took money from and threatened to out? If so, was it that client who wrote the review? If so, was it Kip who wrote the response to that review? If there was no client but the review was written by Kip's "ex-friend" as some sort of revenge, why would Kip respond by affirming the reviewer's allegations and then adding even more damning information?

 

The only "story" I can make up from all of these details that even begins to make sense is the following:

 

There was a client with whom this happened, and that client is Kip's ex-friend. Kip's ex-friend ripped him off in the past and eventually coerced Kip into their first sexual experience, some time in the past. Now his ex-friend has been paying Kip for sex, though not as much as Kip would want. Kip, therefore, took the ex-friend's money on that last "date" and subsequently threatened to out him. Kip and his ex-friend still communicate by two-way radio, so after Kip took his ex-friend's money, Kip and his ex-friend had some verbal communication via the radio. Kip's ex-friend subsequently created a new username which was used to post the review. The anger over having been wronged by his ex-friend in the past contributed to Kip's overly aggressive response.

 

The only problem with my creative writing is that it seems like Kip is indicating that there was an actual third person involved.

 

At any rate, I'll side with the guys who say they would steer clear. No matter what the real story is, there is far too much drama here, at the very least.

[marc anthony]

RE: You say

 

>Marc, I like your posts. You state that you value other

>posters opinions, so here goes:

>Take off the rose colored glasses, get out of the protective

>mode and try to look at the whole picture.

 

You may be right... I usually am in the "protective" mode. Like I said before, my fault is that I tend to give people the benefit of the doubt. Maybe someday I will get burned bad... but for now, even in my business in which lots of snakes and dog-eating-dogs can reach out and bite you, and in the slightly shady world of escort hiring, I have been successful. But I certainly don't deny the possibility that I could be wrong on this one... after all, I have never MET Kip, which is also true of virtually everyone on this board, except the one client of his (not the guy who just signed on, but the one who posted really early on) who actually came to his defense, or the other reviews he has had which have all been positive.

 

>A lot of guys

>here who hire escorts think that your Kip is off base. His

>description of the "whole truth" clearly indicates that his

>life is a mess and he hangs aroung with someone who is a bad

>influence. He sounds highly immature.

 

Agreed. He is VERY immature. What I have maintained all along is that there is a difference between "immature" and "sociopath." You can grow out of one, the other is an incurable disease. Labeling someone that based on the evidence posted here seemed very harsh indeed, especially since we can at least agree that some people would hire an "immature" escort with lots of growing up to do, but very few people would hire a true sociopath.

 

>You say that youth usually don't have the courage to do

>harm. You are obviously reading different media than I am.

>Some of the most horrendous crime is committted by angry

>confused youths frustrated that their lives suck.

 

I meant it in a different context than you, I think. Of course, young people are quite capable of huge violence. Inner city violence, the retaliations in the Middle East, school shootings, etc. are all examples of people younger than Kip causing great harm. But I was referring to those who are young, and are escorting. Those "AOL boys" who are trying to raise extra money for school or parties or rent etc. all talk a big show but have (in my experience) been largely ones looking for real advice from an older more experienced guy. I can't count the number of times I have been with these kids and they have preached this and that, and embellished this and that, and declared this and that... And when I told them to shut up and listen to what the world is really like, they have become captivated listeners. Many of these guys don't have the family structure or older influence that teens need, so they are inappropriate to the usually older client set, but usually quite harmless.

 

Overall, you are right, Lucky. It is a matter of perspective. I may be wearing the rose colored glasses on this one. I just don't want all the people who disagree with me to discount so easily the fact that they may be wearing the "skull and crossbones" colored glasses.

[sdg]

RE: You say

 

hell he's young, immature and passionate. all qualities i find attractive in an escort. tell me which one of us has not said something in the heat of the moment or the anger of the situation that we never really meant to follow thru on!

[Guest]

RE: You say

 

>Unicorn! I know you're a smart guy who puts a premium on

>honest behavior, so please reassure me that you don't mean

>to say that when an escort steals, it's stealing, but when a

>client steals, it's "stiffing," and as long as the client

>gets away with it more than once, he's entitled to expect to

>continue to get away with it.

 

Oh, I absolutely agree that "stiffing" an escort is stealing, just as shoplifting or reaching into a guy's pocket and helping oneself is stealing. I would never let into my house anyone whom I knew steals, be it from stiffing an escort, shoplifting, or reaching into a guy's pocket. Although I wouldn't hire either Kip or Bilbo as an in-call, I would hope that even those who would hire him wouldn't think of letting Kip into their houses!! But I do think that if you choose to deal with someone you know is a thief, you shouldn't complain or be surprised if you're stolen from. Anyone who hires Kip is forewarned.

[Guest]

RE: You say

 

>Agreed. He is VERY immature. What I have maintained all

>along is that there is a difference between "immature" and

>"sociopath." You can grow out of one, the other is an

>incurable disease.

 

The reason I feel quite confident he's sociopathic rather than just immature is that in his comments here, he didn't express remorse, but rather compounded the offense with more lies. A successful sociopath would at least feign remorse. Also, the family notification threat or action shows deep disregard for another person.

 

>I can't count the number of times I have

>been with these kids and they have preached this and that,

>and embellished this and that, and declared this and that...

>And when I told them to shut up and listen to what the world

>is really like, they have become captivated listeners.

 

Would I be shocking you to tell you that your "captivated listeners" may actually just be faking interest? What evidence do you have that your didactic sessions have resulted in long-term behavioral changes? Forgive me for sounding skeptical.

[marc anthony]

RE: You say

 

Thank you, sdg. My point, much more concisely stated.

[Guest Thunderbuns]

ARE WE NUTS?

 

>I read this thread when it was initially started but then

>ignored it until today. What drama! Where is Mary J. Blige

>when you need her?

 

>The only "story" I can make up from all of these details

>that even begins to make sense is the following:

>subsequently created a new username which was used to post

>the review. The anger over having been wronged by his

 

>At any rate, I'll side with the guys who say they would

>steer clear. No matter what the real story is, there is far

>too much drama here, at the very least.

 

I can't imagine why so many people have taken so much time (and I include myself in that group) to disect the lies that Kip keeps burying himself under.

 

Think about it - a completly non-sensical situation has galvinized more attention than the second coming of Christ! Are we nuts - or what?

 

Thunderbuns

[marc anthony]

RE: You say

 

>

>Would I be shocking you to tell you that your "captivated

>listeners" may actually just be faking interest? What

>evidence do you have that your didactic sessions have

>resulted in long-term behavioral changes? Forgive me for

>sounding skeptical.

 

Unicorn: No... believe me. My business and my dealings in my real life with people have made me fairly astute as to who is feigning interest, and who is sincere. You are right. Many do just pretend to listen. But there are many who are really interested. I hire 19 and 20 year olds. Not all of them have aspirations of being long term escorts. They are in it to pay for school, housing, etc. Some of those are VERY interested in the perspective I bring, and the ways that I could help them in their ultimate endeavors.

 

And yes, I do have evidence that some have had long term changes. Many keep in touch with me as they pursue their education or careers in music, law, and medicine. Believe it or not... some of these young boys dream of and strive for careers in the "mainstream." And like all other young kids, are looking for advice as to how to succeed.

[marc anthony]

RE: ARE WE NUTS?

 

>

>Think about it - a completly non-sensical situation has

>galvinized more attention than the second coming of Christ!

>Are we nuts - or what?

>

>Thunderbuns

 

Not nuts... just having fun on the internet discussing issues of little consequence with people we know nothing about. That's what's been one of the huge draws of this thing called the net!

 

You sound like a really attractive guy, Thunder. You don't know me, but I am a very busy, successful guy in my hometown. You could be attracting beauties to your side, and I could be making more cash. But it's just fun to sit here and philosophize/argue/disagree.

 

But you're right. Enough's enough on this topic. Time to move on!

[Guest KipOBrien]

RE: You say

 

>they are very harmless.

>Youth... they make a lot of noise but don't usually have the

>courage to really do harm.

 

Well said.. exactly how I feel. Anyone who is scared of me in (any) way shape of form, I would hate to have them come in contact with a flea! I don't know you yet marc anthony, but I sure in hell are looking forward to it. It's gentlemen like you I ENJOY spedning time with. Lets just show everyone what they will be missing.

[Guest regulation]

RE: ARE WE NUTS? Yes, We Are.

 

It's not usual for me to agree with Marc Anthony, but in this case I find myself at least close to his opinion if not in total agreement. I see no difference between Kip's stealing and Bilbo's. I see a vast difference between the way members of this site treat the two. That difference seems based on nothing other than the way each escort presents himself on this message board. In other words, the difference in the way they are treated has notning to do with the facts, it's all about packaging.

 

There are only minor differences between the accusation of stealing against Kip and Nice Guy's accusation against Rick Munroe. And yet Rick is defended by most people here while Kip is roundly condemned and insulted at every turn. Once again, it's because people focus on the superficial rather than on the essential.

[jimmer]

RE: ARE WE NUTS?

 

I agree with Thunderbuns. If you look back about 40 messages, you'll note that I suggested Kip would self-destruct with his own words. He has done that now, more than once.

 

I guess we all like a soap opera, but when you know the ending, it makes the drama a little less interesting.

 

Jimmer

[Guest]

RE: ARE WE NUTS? Yes, We Are.

 

Hey, at least I'm consistent! :7 I condemned all of them (albeit in different terms)! ;-) I think Bilbo and Rick Munroe are only slightly dangerous, in that they'll take advantage of an opportunity if it presents itself. I don't think they go out of their way to rip people off, or make it a primary means of subsistence. Guys like Kip and Anthony Holloway really send chills up and down my spine, though, because I get the sense that they would do absolutely anything they felt was in their best interest at any given moment. I sincerely believe that neither Kip nor Anthony Holloway have any sense of right or wrong. I don't doubt that something terrible probably happened to them in childhood, but for whatever reason, these guys are just rotten.

[Guest regulation]

RE: ARE WE NUTS? Yes, We Are.

 

>Hey, at least I'm consistent! :7 I condemned all of

>them (albeit in different terms)! ;-) I think Bilbo and Rick

>Munroe are only slightly dangerous, in that they'll take

>advantage of an opportunity if it presents itself. I don't

>think they go out of their way to rip people off, or make it

>a primary means of subsistence. Guys like Kip and Anthony

>Holloway really send chills up and down my spine, though,

>because I get the sense that they would do absolutely

>anything they felt was in their best interest at any given

>moment.

 

You have indeed been consistent, and it is the lack of consistency in others that I pointed out above. But I see very little difference between Kip's actions and those of the other two. Each of the three persuaded himself that he had a "right" to the client's money and each proceeded to take it, albeit in slightly different ways. When ADM and some of its competitors in agribusiness engaged in a massive price-fixing scheme during the 90s they succeeded in overcharging thousands and thousands of food retailers. The executives who conceived and operated this scheme looked very different and sounded very different from the sort of person who would go into a supermarket, grab cash from the cashier's drawer, and run away with it, but in truth the differences are entirely superficial. I think you make too much of the differences among the people we are discussing.

 

What strikes me is not the idea that prostitutes sometimes steal, which is hardly a shocking or remarkable notion. What strikes me is how very differently people choose to treat two prostitutes who have engaged in very similar behavior for no other reason than that one of them has posted a few bon mots on this message board while the other hasn't.

[Guest tmbg]

RE: Kip O'Brien's response 2/23 (The Whole Truth)

 

>It helps more than you imagined! Gotta go, my soap is on....

 

LOL, As the Escort Turns is a really fun show to watch.

 

Cheers! Ritchie