Eerie silence

[Guest Newbie]

With less than an hour to go till its April 7 (in NYC anyway), I'm struck by the fact that there have been hardly any postings to the Deli all day.

(My very rough count puts it at fewer than 20, all of them on page one, and most of them tacked on the the ends of threads that have been up, it seems, forever. Hardly any new posts.) Yesterday was just as quiet. Kinda boring, really.

 

So the dark thought occurred to me: maybe everyone's in the chat room!

 

I hope not. My own interest in chat rooms in general waned quite a bit after the O.J. Simpson saga had run its course, and I did never see much point to chatroom chitchat about sex (all those interlocking illusions & delusions in real time!), so I was less than enthusiastic about Hooboy's announcement that 'chat' was on the way.

 

If it has indeed arrived here bigtime, it may well sap the life out of this forum. Some may find it more fun to trade snappy one-liners in chats, but I'd much rather read hard & fast information & opinion on these boards.

 

Question is: do I have to go into the chat room and ask if anybody agrees with me on this?

[Guest jeejer]

That's funny because I had the same feeling. so I went to the chat room and had a short discussion with myself. Guess everyone was out with their escort. Watch out Hooboy there is bound to be a deluge of reviews coming in.

[HooBoy]

I think a lot of people, myself included, are too scared to post anything for fear of being ridiculed and humiliated.

[Guest Skeptic]

Since Hooboy hasn't shown himself to be scared of doing and saying anything he pleases in the past, maybe this newfound timidity is a good thing. But no one who posts here, even the webmaster, should fear ridicule, unless what they're saying is self-serving bullshit. As for 'humiliation,' that's an entire subjective matter. Either you feel it or you don't. No can can inflict it on you.

[Boston Guy]

Are you serious?

[Guest lovemblond]

HB,

 

I guess the question is simply, Is this a forum or only a "message center"? I thought it was a forum and as such a place for open, frank discussion of ideas (unpleasant as they may occasionally be).

 

I grant you that at times the posts get a bit too catty but I have found the group to do an effective job of self-policing. In other cases everyone eventually finds it ridiculous and boring, effectively killing the thread.

 

This is the nature of forums, political campaigns, TV/radio talk shows and Thursday night poker at my brother-in-laws. If you dig through or strip away the bullshit in some of the nastier threads, you'll find there was some good discussion and debate lurking. Based on some of the posts, I even found a few rethinking their positions. Isn't that what it's all about?

 

HB, you've done a marvelous job on this site. You've also personally been called on some things and usually handle it very well (more than once reversing yourself based on the challenge). Indeed there are some who are personally affected by the heat. I respect that but they should toughen up or stay out of the fray.

 

If not intended as an open forum, then why not shut it down or move it a nice church site somewhere. The last time I was told to never say anything that might hurt or offend someone was 30 years ago in Bible School.

[Paul Revere]

Controversy. We need controversy. That's when everyone chimes in, and the discussion gets interesting.

 

Maybe someone needs to say something bad about Aaron Lawrence, or something good about Billyboy, or something questioning the integrity of Hooboy. Maybe taking off on the latest Aaron Lawrence "Dear Abby" questions, maybe we could have a lively discussion about pre-cum. Maybe we just have to wait for the latest Gaiety review, so we can question the judgement of NYObserver.

 

I'm only on the board today because I had to cancel my planned trip to Montreal this weekeknd. I got hit in the face with a door yesterday (stupid, but true). So I have a split lip and a gash across my nose, and even though I now more look like a hockey player, which the Canadians would find sexy, I think that I should not be spending my weekend sucking on large uncut French-Canadian dick with a split lip. I guess I catch up on my movies this weekeknd, staying in dark auditoriums.

 

And even Skeptic (are you in Boston, too?) has been posting constructive and helpful posts. Where are we to go for controversy now?

[Guest lovemblond]

Uncut dick with a cut lip. Hmmmm! Well I'm going to check out some good church sites. With all the priests gone astray (or is that agay) there may be more controversy there. :-)

[Guest Jake]

LAST EDITED ON Apr-08-00 AT 05:10AM (CST)[p]Duplicate post - see below

[Guest Jake]

Well I read all this with a great deal of interest, and am taking my "life in hand" and have decided to add my thoughts about what seems to be going on.

 

When the message board first appeared I was very happy to have it and made a few innocuous comments and was promptly made to feel like a silly little girl - maybe that's the humiliation that Skeptic refers to and so rightly indicates is a subjective matter and something I chose to feel. At any rate, I thought it was time to take my marbles and go home to mommy. As time passed I would occasionally ask a question or make what I thought was an appropriate comment to another poster - always keeping it light and never wanting to be part of the controversy that seemed to be growing daily. Personally, I couldn't care less where HooBoy lives (but I do hope he's comfortable and happy), whether he likes twinks or musclegods (I suspect he's had his fair share of both) or if he's overly dramatic at times (I really haven't seen that one, but I guess some of you feel that). I wish him well. I'm grateful for what I've learned from this site (that is, about escorts at least - as to the rest of the stuff only time will tell).

 

Recently I saw more and more redundant posts in which a subject was analyzed to the point of practical non-existence. There were literally paragraphs following paragraphs that essentially said the same thing. It was then that, at least to me, it became obvious the posting was about the poster's love for the poster and his use of language and his ability to make a well-constructed, perfectly grammatical, beautiful presentation. I thought one of the most insulting posts indicated that we should try to see value in another individual's post even with all the grammar and syntax lapses. Truthfully, that kind of comment makes me physically ill.

And when I pointed that out in my own post, although I got seven emails at my home from regular and semi-regular posters who agreed with me) no one agreed on the board. I find that interesting also. So, I pretty much decided it's time to take my marbles and go back to mommy's again.

 

When I see Billy Herrington's cock size listed as 8 inches, I'll probably post a comment about it. Or if I have a particularly bad time with an escort, I'll let you know. But the sense of community that one would hope for from a forum such as this (with a few notable exceptions - I have met in person 3 individuals from this forum who are now friends and I correspond with a couple others pretty regularly) just hasn't come to pass. I find that sad.

[Bilbo]

Can't say I agree with you. I get a feeling of comraderie from this group of posters. And had had emotional support from them when I have needed it. I suspect that this is just a lull in the conversatin, similar to those that people say happen naturally at 20 past and 20 til the hour.

[Guest Skeptic]

No, I'm not from Boston, I'm from NYC. I do love Boston, though. Such a sexy place--all those blue-collar Italian & Irish studs (not to slight the Greek guys either)! There used to be such hot hustlers around in the old days--but the Zone is no more & I guess all the 'commercial' bars are long-closed by now. I got excited when I heard there was a place called the Wang Center, but it didn't turn out to be a new version of the old bus station meat-market after all. . .

[Guest RO]

Sorry, Jake, I disagree about this forum lacking a sense of community. (Oh, Shit, are we going to have contraversy about our lack of contraversy?) The psychological progress I've made as a result of this site has been priceless. It's not just about escort reviews, etc. For me, all the peripheral issues related to hiring escorts are simply too uncomfortable for "normal" conversations. I don't know why - I have the BEST of friends - straight & gay - that I'm comfortable talking to about ANYTHING, but not this. I've NEVER talked about escort issues with ANYONE, except on this forum. You guys have been great. I'm understanding that hiring escorts is sort of like a fetish & I'm not the only one in the world who has been cursed. Don't know why it's taken me nearly 20 years to figure it out, but I damn sure feel better about myself. In fact, a few really good friends have noticed the difference, so I know I'm not totally crazy.

 

As for community, we're a diverse group. Some of us might not have much else in common, so . . . doing something like meeting in Provincetown for Memorial Day might not be too cool. (Damn those boys up there can get expensive!) Personally, the finincial freedom which enables me to periodically stuff $$$ into bulging jockstraps requires working 70+ hours/week. I don't have time (or the need) to cultivate new social friends. As it is, my posts are usually poorly written and structured (and sometimes poorly thought out), because I'm always in too much hurry to edit, etc. But, unlike other sites, I don't often feel like I've wasted valuable time.

 

Have I made my point? Basically, I think this is new territory and we're coming along just fine. Now, where are all those hot, hung, horny Daddy/Boy/Master/Slave dudes with price tags around their cocks? We're having more than one kind of drought out here in the desert . . .

[Boston Guy]

Get Over It, Jake!

 

Almost a week ago, I started a thread in the Lounge entitled "Very Dangerous Territory." Since that time, you've made a series of posts, including starting a separate thread, disparaging my remarks.

 

You haven't once really commented on the issue I tried to raise. Instead, you seem to have gotten really upset over the length or style of my post.

 

Just now you've inserted yet another critique of my post in the middle of a comment on this thread. You write:

 

"Recently I saw more and more redundant posts in which a subject was analyzed to the point of practical non-existence. There were literally paragraphs following paragraphs that essentially said the same thing. It was then that, at least to me, it became obvious the posting was about the poster's love for the poster and his use of language and his ability to make a well-constructed, perfectly grammatical, beautiful presentation. I thought one of the most insulting posts indicated that we should try to see value in another individual's post even with all the grammar and syntax lapses. Truthfully, that kind of comment makes me physically ill.

And when I pointed that out in my own post, although I got seven emails at my home from regular and semi-regular posters who agreed with me) no one agreed on the board. I find that interesting also. So, I pretty much decided it's time to take my marbles and go back to mommy's again."

 

For the most part I've just ignored your other posts because I tend to dismiss people who make a habit of jumping into discussions and criticizing other poster's style instead of trying to contribute to the discussion. But this has clearly upset you --"I pretty much decided it's time to take my marbles and go back to mommy's again" -- enough so that almost a week later you are still making caustic remarks about it.

 

Oh, you don't say "Boston Guy wrote a really horrible piece that was really long and full of shit." But we all know what you're referring to.

 

I'm awfully sorry to disappoint you, but contrary to what you think, that post wasn't at all about

"the poster's love for the poster and his use of language and his ability to make a well-constructed, perfectly grammatical, beautiful presentation". Instead I saw a situation that I thought was really serious and I hoped others would, too.

 

The few responses to the thread I created indicated that I was wrong. Others clearly do not perceive a problem here. OK, so I was wrong or we can simply agree to disagree. I can accept that.

 

But seem to have gotten so hung on the length and style of the original post that it's still driving you crazy days later.

 

Sorry to disappoint you again, but I was in real hurry when I wrote that piece. I was tempted not to write anything at all because I literally needed to leave town on a business trip right away. But the poor guy's situation really affected me and I felt really bad for him and I wanted to write something.

 

So I wrote it quickly and went on my trip. Had I had more time, I might have edited it more carefully and, on re-reading, there are some lines that could surely come out. It could easily be cleaned up and made more precise.

 

But, Jake, the damn thing is only 20 paragraphs long. The first two paragraphs described the situation that caused me to write (remember, I was creating a new thread and not responding to a previous message). The next seven paragraphs described what I saw the problem to be -- and yes, one of them was one-line paragraph that on re-reading is a little over-the-top stylistically. And in the final paragraphs I tried to start a discussion going.

 

Remember, I thought this was a really serious issue, not something on a par with a lot of the less serious, more fun things we discuss here. So I was trying, perhaps unsuccessfully in my haste, to set both a framework and a rationale for a discussion.

 

And then you write "I thought one of the most insulting posts indicated that we should try to see value in another individual's post even with all the grammar and syntax lapses. Truthfully, that kind of comment makes me physically ill."

 

Well, what I said was that I thought everyone should go back and read what the young escort in question had said. It's really easy on the Internet to just dismiss writing that's really rough, with typos and misspellings and other errors. But I thought this kid was writing from his heart and he really affected me. And I wanted to point it out in case others had missed it.

 

I certainly didn't intend to insult anyone and if you took offense, then I do apologize. But my entry wasn't about my love for myself or my love for my writing or anything like that at all.

 

Rather it was a quick attempt to respond to something that affected me more than most things I see here and I thought we should pay attention to this kid's problem. I wasn't trying to blame Hutchie or anyone else. Instead, I was trying to say that we could be developing a pattern that might end up hurting people.

 

I'm sorry you didn't like the length of the piece I wrote. I suspect you won't like the length of this one either, but sometimes it takes time and space to address an issue.

 

I understand that most people want messages on forums like these to always be pithy and witty and two sentences long. But I don't know how to respond in two sentences to an issue that seems to take a page to address. Perhaps others are much more clever than I.

 

But, Jake, I suggest that you get over it. It seems like my original post has been giving you indigestion for days. It isn't worth it. Life's too short. Go out and have some fun.

[Will]

My experience of this site is so close to RO's that I could almost think it was my own posting. It has become an invigorating habit to visit M4M every day without fail, so much so that I notice when certain frequent contributors go missing. A few weeks ago Shooter wondered where Bilbo and BostonGuy were. I joined him in that, and both guys showed up right away. If that's not a sense of community, I don't know what is.

 

To me, community doesn't mean that everybody always agrees with everybody else; it doesn't mean a clique of like-minded individuals who get together to tell each other how great they are; it doesn't mean group decisions by consensus; and it doesn't mean that everything will always be sweetness and light. In a lively community, I think, each person knows that he is a member of the whole, that he if he lieaves the community, the community itself will change and be the poorer for it. As a member, he can say whatever he likes and will be listened to. Others may disagree, even sharply. But he is as welcome at the table as anyone else. I would be really sad, Jake, if you were to pick up your toys and go home to mommy. The phrase itself sounds petulant and childish, and something tells me that you know it.

 

Another thing I like about this "place" is the terrific mix of men here. There seem to be young and old, urban and rural, rich and poor, educated and not-so-educated. As someone who likes to use words, I would be sad to think that anyone would criticize me for my way of expressing myself. At the same time, I have never seen anyone criticized for his grammar or syntax. When word usage became a tiny little thing last week, I thought the posting sounded like a sensitive reminder that we are, in fact, a community whose membership is open. That was hardly condescending or patronizing in my book. On the contrary, it was sweet, considerate, and constructive. The history of gay liberation tells me one thing above all others: If we don't stand together, we will surely fall apart, apart as a minority, apart as community, apart as friends, apart as individuals. I have spent the better part of my life feeling apart and I don't want to do it anymore. I like the feeling -- I like it a lot -- that I have all you, invisible members of my community. Yes, we have to call ourselves by pseudonyms because for us the outside world has proven to be a very, very dangerous place. How great it is to be able to come inside, to take off our shoes, to put up our feet, and to have a talk. So what if sometimes it gets heated? I'd rather be in a heated conversation than in a cold silence any day of the week.

[Guest Jake]

RE: Get Over It, Jake!

 

Huh???

 

Geez, I feel like Skeptic at a HooBoy housewarming.

[Guest Pal]

RE: Get Over It, Jake!

 

BostonGuy, not everybody thought that your remarks about the escort in Knoxville were inconsequential. I voted with you on it, and still do. In his post to this thread, Will expressed my understanding of what you said exactly and he seems to think that you raised a serious issue that needs more discussion. As for you, Jake, the whining is not attractive. BostonGuy was absolutely right that your criticism of him was nasty and did not even address the substance of his post. If you don't like the way other people treat you on line, maybe you need to take a good look at your own e-manners before you go around slamming others.

[Guest REGINA]

JAKE-READ ME

 

Jake-Don't be a stranger. I like reading what you have to say, good, bad or indifferent. Like I said to BillyBoy, "Fuck 'em". Stay with us, you're insight is as valuable as anyone elses and I like to see the name "Jake" when checking out the forum!

 

XOXO

 

p.s. Billy Herrington is 8 inches? These MUST be AOL inches!! :-)

[Bilbo]

RE: JAKE-READ ME

 

Um, actually, Will, I did criticize someone on his poor use of the English language at one time by advancing the idea that what he really needed was someone to help him work on his G.E.D. thus meaning to imply that it didn't look like he had ever graduated from a decent high school. It was a little rougher than constructive criticism because I wasn't really sure that anyone who really wrote like that would be able to effectively use a computer. If the young man really talks like that most of the time and was not pulling our legs, I do owe him an apology, but I also feel I owe him a warning that this writing style might become a real detriment if he ever wanted to leave his small hamlet in the rural midwest. But, as has basically been said, sometimes tough love is a part of a real community.