Men with older brothers more likely to be gay

[Guest]

[marylander1940]

So you disagree with the evidence presented in the link on post #19: "Bogaert et al. (3) present direct biochemical evidence indicating that the increased incidence of homosexuality in males with older brothers results from a progressive immunization of the mother against a male-specific cell-adhesion protein that plays a key role in cell–cell interactions, specifically in the process of synapse formation, during development called neuroligin 4 Y-linked, or NLGN4Y. This study provides the first data-based explanation for the FBO effect and adds a significant chapter to growing evidence indicating that sexual orientation is heavily influenced by prenatal biological mechanisms rather than by unidentified factors in socialization."

On what basis (in other words, what evidence) do you disagree with the scientific study? (By the way, there are other studies showing similar data) Or do you just believe whatever feels right to you, and ignore scientific inquiry into a subject?

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-JMJoqDEBsW0/Tksf8WIazeI/AAAAAAAAAgk/Gbhp0wSZ1D8/s1600/web-UCScalendar-2012-ScientificTruthPauls2011.jpg

 

This would be useful in one of the many Coronavirus threads!

[sydneyboy]

So you disagree with the evidence presented in the link on post #19: "Bogaert et al. (3) present direct biochemical evidence indicating that the increased incidence of homosexuality in males with older brothers results from a progressive immunization of the mother against a male-specific cell-adhesion protein that plays a key role in cell–cell interactions, specifically in the process of synapse formation, during development called neuroligin 4 Y-linked, or NLGN4Y. This study provides the first data-based explanation for the FBO effect and adds a significant chapter to growing evidence indicating that sexual orientation is heavily influenced by prenatal biological mechanisms rather than by unidentified factors in socialization."

On what basis (in other words, what evidence) do you disagree with the scientific study? (By the way, there are other studies showing similar data) Or do you just believe whatever feels right to you, and ignore scientific inquiry into a subject?

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-JMJoqDEBsW0/Tksf8WIazeI/AAAAAAAAAgk/Gbhp0wSZ1D8/s1600/web-UCScalendar-2012-ScientificTruthPauls2011.jpg

I have got to be extremely careful here because as I said in my post I do not want this discussion to be unseemly and over the years I have encountered people who have strong views on the issue of causation.

This article is described as “scientific “ but when it comes to explaining matters of the mind one has to be careful about what is “science “ and scientists disagree. There was a very well known Sydney psychiatrist Professor Nathaniel McConaghy (now deceased) who was an early and enthusiastic practitioner of aversion therapy. I read one article he wrote years ago in which, on the question of causes, believed homosexuality was the result of a vitamin deficiency while the foetus was still in its mother’s womb. This was by no means his most bizarre theory/practice.

One thing I have observed over the years is that some gay people have a blind spot when it comes to accepting that their sexuality is the result of familial circumstances. I do not.

Edited March 26, 2020 by sydneyboy

[+ E.T.Bass]

I recall years ago a study reported the probability a man self-identifties as gay increases as the number of older brothers increases. Clearly it did not mean that having older brothers causes you to be gay. Obviously, no matter your birth order, the probability of turning out gay is low.

 

That said, I am youngest of an all boy family. I have a straight twin.

[+ WilliamM]

I recall years ago a study reported the probability a man self-identifties as gay increases as the number of older brothers increases. Clearly it did not mean that having older brothers causes you to be gay. Obviously, no matter your birth order, the probability of turning out gay is low.

 

That said, I am youngest of an all boy family. I have a straight twin.

 

I have a younger brother and had a twin brother. Neither brother is/was gay.

 

 

I respect @sydneyboy for giving his opinion. In my family of cousins there are older brothers who are gay and middle brothers who are gay. No gay youngest Brothers.

Edited March 26, 2020 by WilliamM

[Guest]

...

This article is described as “scientific “ but when it comes to explaining matters of the mind one has to be careful about what is “science “ and scientists disagree. There was a very well known Sydney psychiatrist Professor Nathaniel McConaghy (now deceased) who was an early and enthusiastic practitioner of aversion therapy. I read one article he wrote years ago in which, on the question of causes, believed homosexuality was the result of a vitamin deficiency while the foetus was still in its mother’s womb. This was by no means his most bizarre theory/practice.

...

Well, firstly, I have to point out that no one is saying that birth order is the ONLY explanation for sexual orientation. Clearly it is not, as there are first-born gay men. However, I think that the many scientific studies on the subject of development of sexual orientation strongly suggest that sexual orientation is determined in the womb much of the time, if perhaps not all of the time. The studies on the immune hypothesis provide evidence of this. It's been known for many decades that scientists can alter the sexual orientation of rodents by manipulating hormones in the womb. As for any other opinions one may have regarding other purported causes, such as vitamin deficiency, aversion therapy, or anything else, opinions are just ideas. A wise person looks for hard evidence to support his opinions. If the evidence doesn't support his opinions, the wise person changes his opinion. Foolish people confuse opinion with knowledge.

[sydneyboy]

A former next door neighbour of mine was a gay solicitor and an intelligent man. Over a few glasses of wine one night the issue of gay causation arose. I gave him my psychoanalytic explanation which he not have a bar of. He claimed it was “learnt” behaviour.

Over the preceding years he had told me of his own family history. His mother, a single woman, conceived him at the age of about 45 as the result of a one night stand. He was raised by this middle aged single woman with no male figure in his formative years. Pure unadulterated Freud. None but the blind shall see.

[LivingnLA]

Research continues. There may be something to the "fraternal order" idea, but it's only one idea and it doesn't seem to fit the majority of homosexual males. Human sexuality is incredibly complex. We're talking about subtle interactions between many different genes driving sexual behavior. It will not be explained by any one idea. Here are two pretty interesting recent papers in this area.

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6600923/

Abstract

Several biological mechanisms have been proposed to influence male sexual orientation, but the extent to which these mechanisms occur is unclear. Putative markers of biological processes are often used to evaluate the biological basis of male sexual orientation, including fraternal birth order, handedness, and familiality of same-sex sexual orientation; these biomarkers are proxies for immunological, endocrine, and genetic mechanisms. Here, we used latent profile analysis (LPA) to assess whether these biomarkers cluster within the same individuals or are present in different subgroups of nonheterosexual men. LPA defined four profiles of men based on these biomarkers: 1) A subgroup who did not have these biomarkers, 2) fraternal birth order, 3) handedness, and 4) familiality. While the majority of both heterosexual and nonheterosexual men were grouped in the profile that did not have any biomarker, the three profiles associated with a biomarker were composed primarily of nonheterosexual men. We then evaluated whether these subgroups differed on measures of gender nonconformity and personality that reliably show male sexual orientation differences. The subgroup without biomarkers was the most gender-conforming whereas the fraternal birth order subgroup was the most female-typical and agreeable, compared with the other profiles. Together, these findings suggest there are multiple distinct biodevelopmental pathways influencing same-sex sexual orientation in men.

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7031179/

Abstract

The prevalence of women’s and men’s heterosexuality, bisexuality, and homosexuality was assessed in 28 nations using data from 191,088 participants from a 2005 BBC Internet survey. Sexual orientation was measured in terms of both self-reported sexual identity and self-reported degree of same-sex attraction. Multilevel modeling analyses revealed that nations’ degrees of gender equality, economic development, and individualism were not significantly associated with men’s or women’s sexual orientation rates across nations. These models controlled for individual-level covariates including age and education level, and nation-level covariates including religion and national sex ratios. Robustness checks included inspecting the confidence intervals for meaningful associations, and further analyses using complete-cases and summary scores of the national indices. These analyses produced the same non-significant results. The relatively stable rates of heterosexuality, bisexuality, and homosexuality observed across nations for both women and men suggest that non-social factors likely may underlie much variation in human sexual orientation. These results do not support frequently offered hypotheses that sexual orientation differences are related to gendered social norms across societies.

Edited March 28, 2020 by LivingnLA

[+ Charlie]

A former next door neighbour of mine was a gay solicitor and an intelligent man. Over a few glasses of wine one night the issue of gay causation arose. I gave him my psychoanalytic explanation which he not have a bar of. He claimed it was “learnt” behaviour.

Over the preceding years he had told me of his own family history. His mother, a single woman, conceived him at the age of about 45 as the result of a one night stand. He was raised by this middle aged single woman with no male figure in his formative years. Pure unadulterated Freud. None but the blind shall see.

Plenty of straight men were raised by single women with no significant male figures in their lives. Freud's theories were interesting intuitions about patients in his personal practice, not scientifically grounded or supported by any rigorous research on his part. As always, correlation is not proof of causation. The fact that my spouse and his next younger brother are gay and their two younger brothers are straight, and all four were raised in the same household by a strong father and an equally strong mother, does not not prove or disprove anything about why the four brothers turned out the way that they did.

[+ EVdude]

In my family, I’m the oldest of 4. Bro is str8, one sister is lesbian. Cousin (oldest in his family) is gay, one bro identifies as bi. Another cousin (oldest in her family) is lesbian. And my Aunt, who divorced my uncle, recently came out (@ 76!) as lesbian even though she has never been with a women. She says she just knows. And she maintains that our great grandmother was likely lesbian. I think it’s the Lake Erie water. ?

[+ WilliamM]

Plenty of straight men were raised by single women with no significant male figures in their lives. Freud's theories were interesting intuitions about patients in his personal practice, not scientifically grounded or supported by any rigorous research on his part. As always, correlation is not proof of causation. The fact that my spouse and his next younger brother are gay and their two younger brothers are straight, and all four were raised in the same household by a strong father and an equally strong mother, does not not prove or disprove anything about why the four brothers turned out the way that they did.

 

Several people here have now disagreed with the so-called scientific study. Is that enough?

[+ Trebor]

Okay, I started this thread. How about we end it now!! OVER AND DONE!

[+ Pensant]

Okay, I started this thread. How about we end it now!! OVER AND DONE!

Bravo!

[sydneyboy]

Okay, I started this thread. How about we end it now!! OVER AND DONE!

I think there is a deep seated psychoanalytic explanation as to why you want this thread terminated.?

[+ E.T.Bass]

Research continues. There may be something to the "fraternal order" idea, but it's only one idea and it doesn't doesn't seem to fit the majority of homosexual males. Human sexuality is incredibly complex. We're talking about subtle interactions between many different genes driving sexual behavior. It will not be explained by any one idea. Here are two pretty interesting recent papers in this area.

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6600923/

 

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7031179/

Endocrinal mechanism is mentioned. I've been pondering that, how doctors/ scientists know that hormone receptors can fail, leading to unexpected variation in development, or lack thereof. Thanks for sharing the articles. Interesting stuff.

[sydneyboy]

Plenty of straight men were raised by single women with no significant male figures in their lives. Freud's theories were interesting intuitions about patients in his personal practice, not scientifically grounded or supported by any rigorous research on his part. As always, correlation is not proof of causation. The fact that my spouse and his next younger brother are gay and their two younger brothers are straight, and all four were raised in the same household by a strong father and an equally strong mother, does not not prove or disprove anything about why the four brothers turned out the way that they did.

I agree that straight men may be raised by single women. A personal friend of mine found out her new husband was a philanderer while pregnant with his child. That was the end of the marriage and she raised her son alone. She is a highly intelligent woman who raised her son with full awareness of the circumstances in which they were in. He did well at a local state school, a prefect, tertiary educated, although only about 24 has achieved good things in the world of work and is straight with a nice little girlfriend etc. My point is that a male child raised by a single woman has a much greater chance of being gay but it is not necessarily the case depending upon the woman concerned.

[sydneyboy]

Okay, I started this thread. How about we end it now!! OVER AND DONE!

 

I respectfully disagree. It is an interesting and throughly worthwhile topic to discuss. The fact that there is a wide range of opinions is interesting in itself.

[+ E.T.Bass]

I think there is a deep seated psychoanalytic explanation as to why you want this thread terminated.?

Mother denied me (sucking on) lollipops when all the neighbor boys spent their lazy summer days lounging in hammocks, sucking on hard, sugary sweet lollipop candies. I showed her!

[sydneyboy]

Mother denied me (sucking on) lollipops when all the neighbor boys spent their lazy summer days lounging in hammocks, sucking on hard, sugary sweet lollipop candies. I showed her!

Very good. I’ll acknowledge style any day.