Spanish lessons

[pierrot]

This has nothing to do with escorts, and I don't know why I'm posting it here, except that I thought someone might have an idea.

I'm vacationing in Spain in a few months and would like to hire a Spanish teacher for private lessons. I'm in Manhattan, and since half the population speaks Spanish it shouldn't be too big a problem, but I am looking for someone with real teaching experience, not just a Spanish speaker. Anyone have any contacts for this?

[+ deej]

Google is your friend. :-)

 

http://www.google.com/search?q=spanish+lessons+manhattan&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a

 

(I recently did a similar search for LA so I was pretty sure what the results would be.)

[noviceny]

I also wanted to add that it would be good, if you can, to hire someone who might be able to teach you Castillian Spanish. When I was in Spain, I had no problem understanding people and the same in Mexico. However, I can not really understand alot of Puerto Ricans and I absolutely understand NONE of the Dominicans.

 

In Spain you can tell a distinct and distracting difference (at least for a plebian Spanish speaker like myself) between the north and the south. "Hasta Luego" I can understand but in Malaga "Ta ego" sounds like my vreakfast order. Chopping off half the word seems to be a problem in almost all languages but i think you will have alot of fun.

 

Spain is the shit ! and it is still my favorite country to this day. People were friendly : a group of guys took me out for a night on the town WITH THEIR GIRLFRIENDS whom with they already had plans ! That is just too fuckin cool and would never happen in NYC.

 

People too the time to try to understand my Spanish and seemed really happen that I was trying and not giving up and just trying English.

 

If you go to Madrid, Barcelona, Alicante or the Alhambra let me know. I have one or two places that were my favorites and id be happy to write em down for u

[Epigonos]

I lived in Mexico for a year studying Spanish and then spent two years in Guatemala in the Peace Corps a thousand years ago. Upon my return from Guatemala I taught Spanish at the high school level for twenty years. Now with that background out of the way here are my suggestions.

 

1. Unless you intend to limit your time in Spanish speaking countries to Spain forget about learning Castillian/Madrid type Spanish. The lisping "th" sound they use for the "c" is made fun of and laughed at through out all of Latin America.

 

2. Puerto Rican and Cuban Spanish is very difficult to understand as they drop the letter "s" in just about all circumstances.

 

3. The Spanish of Mexico City is impossible as they tend to sing it rather than speak it.

 

4. If you can find a teacher from Northern Mexico, Costa Rica, or Northern Columbia you will learn a Spanish that is universally understood and free from really strange regionalisms.

 

It is a great language and people in all Spanish speaking countries are extremely appreciative when someone tries to speak their language.

You might also want to consider looking for a school in one of the above areas and take a learning vacation.

[+ deej]

Interesting. Could the two years you spent in Guatemala have inured you to the dialect differences somewhat?

 

More years ago than I care to admit, I spent 3 summers touring around Mexico and one year we also visited Guatemala. In northern & central Mexico (including Mexico City) I was conversationally fluent. I only spoke English in the group I was traveling with.

 

In Guatemala I couldn't understand a word. (I have the same problem in Louisiana. ;-)) I was only in Guatemala for a few days, and much of that was spent in the jungle at Tikal, so I probably would have tuned my ear with a longer stay.

 

I don't have so much trouble with Puerto Rican Spanish, but I've been around it enough to "learn to hear it".

 

The crew that does landscaping around my office is Spanish-speaking but I can never understand any of it. I've recently discovered (by flirting with the cute ones, of course) that they're mostly Honduran.

 

I have the most trouble with the central American dialects.

[Epigonos]

Spanish like English is all the more interesting because of the multitude of influences that have changed it from country to country and even area to area within a country.

 

In Guatemala the influence of the twenty two indigenous languages, spoken in a country about the size of Tennessee, is tremendous. Because of that influence the people have a tendency to add what sounds like the letter "s" in front of all words starting with the letter "r" thus sRameriz and srecto.

 

In Central America, with the exception of Costa Rica, the people use the word vos with the regular familiar tu form thus Adonde vas vos? instead of Adonde vas tu? In traditional Spanish this makes no sense what-so-ever.

 

In Buenos Aires, Argentina and Montevideo, Uruguay because of the influence of Italian immigrants the letters "y" and "ll" have become the letter "j" thus jo instead of yo, jamo instead of llamo, and caje instead of calle.

 

Through out Mexico the word mande is used to mean "excuse me I didn't understand you could you please repeat what you said" This drives the rest of the Spanish speaking world crazy because mande is a form of the word mandar meaning to order someone to do something and they don't believe you should ever give someone the right to order you.

 

Words also change from Spanish speaking country to Spanish speaking country. In most of Spanish speaking countries huevos are eggs BUT in Mexico huevos is the slang word for balls. In Mexico if you want eggs ask for blanquios.

 

Damn Spanish is fun!!!!!

[+ deej]

Spanish speaking men can be fun too.

 

I'm on my way to see one now. He's so cute with his legs in the air calling me papi. ;-)

[pierrot]

Thanks for the comments. I look forward to learning Spanish and have already found from studying a basic book that I recognize lots of it. I am French-speaking anyway and speak some Italian, so Spanish is another member of the family.

I'm not sure what about the pronunciation choices. It seems most people recommend a basic Latin American Spanish as opposed to Castilian. Actually I like the sound of Castilian better, but my experience with other languages tells me that foreigners should always attempt to be "standard" rather than to adopt an "accent" -- because you'll always be pegged as a foreigner anyway. It just confuses the issue if you try anything fancy.

I'm spending most of my time in Barcelona. I notice the street names there are in Catalan. No idea what to do with that and I can't learn yet another language, but I've been there before and know that all speak Spanish as well. As a matter of fact, lots of Catalans speak some French too, but I don't want to fall back on that. I want to at least speak enough Spanish not to feel unable to communicate at all.

[liubit]

As a native Spanish speaker, I second all those who advised you NOT to try "Castillian Spanish". Not only are Spaniards the only ones who "lisp" (as pointed above), but also the only ones who use the (otherwise correct) term VOSOTROS for the plural of the familiar TU (you). Try to conjugate verbs using that form, you will have a blast with words like QUISISTEIS (you wanted) and the like. Don't waste your time: the rest of us many million Spanish speakers use USTEDES (plural of USTED, the formal TU), which simplifies grammar, pronounciation and conjugation (QUISIERON instead of QUISISTEIS). To our ears, VOSOTROS sounds as funny as THOU, THEE, THY, THINE would sound to American ears. Go for Latin American Spanish (Colombian or Mexican, NOT Cuban or Argentinian...) Buena suerte (good luck). :-)

[pierrot]

So, just out of curiosity, do Spanish speakers outside of Spain only use the informal TU in the singular, then switch to formal usage for any plural usage? Or do you only use the formal USTED in both singular and plural and never use the informal TU at all?

[Epigonos]

The basic answer to your first question is YES but it is a little more complicated than a simple yes. In Latin America Spanish speakers use the fimiliar singular tu form. They also use the formal singular Usted and formal plural Ustedes. Now the somewhat complicated part -- they use the formal plural verb endings for the familiar plural but without using the formal plural pronoun Ustedes with it. Damn I hope that makes sense.

[liubit]

Spanish grammar 101

 

It does make sense, Epigonos....I would address my brother and my sister individually using TU, but USTEDES if I do it collectively. Kind of weird, but it beats the Spanish VOSOTROS every time }(

 

And for your very last point, you certainly know that in Spanish you do not need to use the pronoun explicitly every time: unlike in English, the verb form is enough to "give away" what the verb refers to. Example: in English, "WANT" is used for I, you, we or they, whereas in Spanish, it would change for every person (QUIERO, QUIERES, QUIERE, QUEREMOS, etc.)

 

The exception is, of course USTED and USTEDES, where you use the 3rd person singular and the 3rd person plural, and not a special form. The context is what makes you understand...

[+ Gar1eth]

I only know a little Spanish--my standard phrase is "yo hablo un poco espanol, pero no entiendo"

 

but aside from the fun you can have with "ustedes' and vosotros" just wait until you get to the imperative--there are different forms for positive and negative commands--which does not occur in the other 2 languages that I actually have studied--Latin and German.

 

Ghombre (Gman)

[Epigonos]

The problem with different forms for the imperatives is easily solved by simply sticking to the formal commands -- they are the same in both the affrimative and negative. Only the familiar commands have different affrimative and negative forms.

To reiterate liubit's last point one can make the formal commands less formal by simply omiting the pronouns Usted or Ustedes thus Venga aca (less formal), Venga Usted aca (more formal). The negative of these two would simply be No venga aca and No venga Usted aca.

[liubit]

Yeah, the two imperative forms...the negative (as in NO VENGAS ACÁ, don't come here, or NO COMAS ESTO, don't eat this) is simply the subjunctive present...

 

A more horrific thing is the use of TWO verbs for the simple TO BE, namely SER and ESTAR...Impossible rules and a million exceptions: a non-native can speak fluently, make absolutely no mistakes in the use of the subjunctive present perfect or the negative imperative, a tiny slip of the tongue in SER and ESTAR would immediately give him away....oh, so subtle and yet so important.

[Epigonos]

For me the three most difficult points in Spanish grammar were:

 

Ser/Estar

Preterite/Imperfect

Placement of Object Pronouns

 

It seems that one day, after a number of years studying and practicing the language all of a sudden ser/estar and preterite/imperfect became crystal clear. However, I still find myself having on occasion to stop and think about where to place a certain object pronoun.

[raulgmanzo]

Spanish anachronisms in the new world

 

Epigonos writes:

>Spanish like English is all the more interesting because of

>the multitude of influences that have changed it from country

>to country and even area to area within a country.

...

>Damn Spanish is fun!!!!!

 

Some interesting oddities are from colonial times. My ancestors being land grant Californios spoke an almost Cervantine form of spanish even into the 20th century. Many of them originally left spain in the 1500s and held onto the language. It's pretty much dead now, I remember years ago a student of old spanish interviewing my great-grandmother before he set off for Arizona to study some isolated pockets of colonial speech.

 

In some very isolated towns in central Mexico I swear you can hear an aspirated H in words like hermoso, hecho and hongo. The words that were originally spelled with an f in latin. As oposed to those like huevos. Of course it was so light that it was hard to be sure. And when people thought I was paying attention to their speech they seemed to speak much more standard dialect.

 

My own spanish is absolutely terrible and a crazy mix from those around my neighborhood, mostly Michoacanos, Puerto Riquenos, and a past lover from Uruguay.

 

Language sure is fun.

 

Raul

[pierrot]

The use of a formal 2nd person that is equivalent to 3rd person ending is something Spanish has in common with Italian. In Italian the informal singular is tu, and informal plural is voi; the formal singular is Lei, and plural formal is Loro.

Now "Lei: is literally "she". The reason is became a way of addressing another person is that it stands in for "your honor" (onore, a feminine noun, so "she"). So you're actually saying Your honor to people you address as Lei.

I wonder if this is the same in Spanish. Where did "Usted" come from?

In French the formal is of course "vous". It doesn't stand in for anything, but it also does not use 3rd person endings, so avoids that confusion.

The confusing thing about Usted in Spanish and Lei in Italian is that you can get mixed up as to whether the speaker is using 2nd or 3rd person, since pronouns are generally omitted. (Is he talking to me or about a third party?) It all hinges on context.

One bright spot in all this confusion is that the use of formal pronouns is slowly dying in most languages. In a world where formal, hereditary rank is no longer of much interest, most European languages are re-expanding the use of the informal which was the original 2nd person. In fact, there's no a priori reason to retain the formal address.

When I first went to France 30 years ago, Vous was used with pretty much everyone. Now, many more people use Tu very quickly once they've met you. It is particularly common among gay men.

[raulgmanzo]

Pierrot asks:

>I wonder if this is the same in Spanish. Where did "Usted"

>come from?

 

Usted comes from "vuestra merced"

Which means about the same as "your honor".

 

Raul

[Epigonos]

Proving raulgmanzo's point Usted is abbreviated Ud. or Vd. singular and Uds. or Vds. plural. The question Adonde va? can mean Where is he going? - Where is she going? - or Where are you (singular)going? By context the listener will know exactly which one it is.

[+ deej]

I love this thread!

[Epigonos]

Just a tiny bit on the esoteric side don't you think deej?

[+ deej]

Not really!

 

It's a brilliant example of the diverse expertise and experience at our fingertips here if we'd just ply the depths.

[+ Gar1eth]

Guess I'll throw in some German here--since I don't as I said in my previous post know any of the Romance languages--and Latin as the origin of all the Romance languages does not have a 'Formal" "you"

 

In German--the "Formal You"--singular and plural in the nominative (subject) case is "Sie" with German being more inflected--the accusative case (direct object and certain prepositions) Sie, and the dative (indirect object and certain prepositions) Ihnen. These are the same forms as the 3rd person plural personal pronoun (they/them) but they are always capitalized when used as the "Formal You"

 

Gman