411 on Massage by Max

[Massageislife]

Guys - this all boils down to what most of us on this Forum have experiened and said and that is . . . YMMV. Plain and simple.

I find that a lot of people on the forum have very high/varying expectations of what a masseur should/shouldn't be providing at a particular price point. I do understand that it can be difficult at times to understand just what you may be getting, but I do also think that as three types of a massage are listed, that perhaps different services come with different rates. My main thing to say, is be upfront about what you are looking for and don't leave things to assumptions.

 

I've asked regarding the erotic part to certain masseurs and they have said, yes it does depend on chemistry, but at the same time, they are not escorts and the assumption that something very specific may happen isn't fair, unless it is discussed prior to the meeting.

 

I have been to Max on numerous occasions and have left satisfied on each and every one. He's very personable (perhaps this comes with seeing him over time) but I don't think it is fair to expect to just give someone a BJ because they are giving you a massage. Further, he runs two ads on two different sites, so unless you are specifically saying where you found said ad, and what you expect, I'm not sure the masseur owes you more than what you contacted them for, and that is a massage.

 

Regarding rates, I myself have been frustrated at high rates at times, but if i am not willing to pay a higher amount for a therapeutic massage, I move on.

 

NYCTwinkbod, I appreciate your message. I feel like this thread has value for evaluating whether or not to try Max, but for the issues it raises more generally as well. For what it's worth, I told Max I found his ad on rentmasseur. He did not ask me which type of massage I wanted. He did not undress, touch my ass or dick, or allow mutual touch (I didn't really try, since his body language discouraged it). I paid him the full rate for 90 minutes and a good tip. I didn't write about him negatively on this site until a thread popped up presenting a very different view of him than I had. A number of people have, indeed, described great experiences with him. Others have had negative experiences or have thrown out red flags, even if they were happy with the experience overall (Jasonmathison describes confirming nudity in advance that Max did not follow up on; aiekaryoko describes finding out that there is an upcharge for erotic). I'm curious what type of massage you receive from Max and if there is an upcharge. A thread describing multiple people's experiences is the kind of "YMMV" discussion (to quote Redwine) that is valuable in this forum. A multiplicity of opinions and experiences really helps!

 

What I'm saying shouldn't vary--and what I think we can support each other with--are our shared ideas of what we can expect from masseurs collectively or individually. To use Max (perhaps I should start a new thread, since this isn't about Max, really) as an example, I wish those who advocated for him would have disclosed that they, for example, asked for an erotic experience in advance and/or that he told them there was an upcharge for it. That would have helped me either make my experience with him better or avoid him. Information that flags good masseurs or warns us off of problematic ones is the central role of this site, right?

 

The larger thing I value on this site is the discussion, which is not always direct, of how we understand advertising terms like "sensual" and "erotic," what it means when masseurs have shirtless or nude photos, the difference between advertising sites (mostly rentmasseur and masseurfinder), and what rates suggest about the services provided. I've learned a lot from my years of massage, and I would like to use that knowledge to help others navigate the m4m massage world more successfully than I sometimes have, especially as a beginner.

 

As I always write, I don't feel comfortable (for myself or for them) being upfront about the details of what I expect from an erotic experience before I meet a masseur for the first time. I have almost always been successful in getting a basic erotic experience (both of us nude, basic organic mutual touch, some genital/anal contact) by identifying the fundamental markers in an ad (a price of $150/60 currently, shirtless or nude shots, and, of course, ADVERTISING EROTIC). If an ad has those things, the masseur is promising "more" than a massage; it's not that I feel they "owe" it to me. It's why I'm shocked by an experience like I had with Max, which was only therapeutic. I agree totally that a blowjob, in either direction, cannot be expected as basic erotic massage service, but more basic erotic things, like those I list above, don't have anything to do with chemistry. And it's simply false advertising to expect a customer to ask the different prices of listed services when a single price--one that is generally the price of an erotic massage--is listed.

 

I'll end with my massage experience from last night. I went for the second time and received an outstanding massage again from George (https://www.masseurfinder.com/massage-therapists/38637/). As his only ad is on masseurfinder, there are no topless photos of him, of course. He also does not use suggestive language in the text of his ad. Finally, his rate of $120/hr clearly communicates that it will be a therapeutic only massage. Now, I basically never go for therapeutic m4m massage (That's what legit spas are for) because I like a therapeutic and erotic mix, but I really needed a legit massage and he was so cute--and he IS so cute--that I went for it last month. Because I was nude and he is sexy as fuck, I experienced the massage as extremely sensual, but he wasn't nude, my hands had almost no contact with him, and he didn't touch my dick or my asshole. I didn't expect or try anything more because of the way he marketed himself. I would love to see him open up his services, but I'm never going to push it. He's been clear in the all the ways that I think he needs to be. I don't have unreasonable expectations from masseurs, and I'm not frustrated by high rates for therapeutic massage. I only dislike being scammed by masseurs advertising for erotic services and not following through.

[Massageislife]

Customers should feel uncomfortable asking for anything sexual since it is illegal. I also think it is very unrealistic to assume anything about a masseur and the service he offers simply by judging the photos in the ad or the price. There is no such thing as trusting the ad.

 

If you have the balls to ask about a particular expectation in advance (before ever meeting), always expect the MT to say YES. The MT is not motivated in any way to discourage a new customer appointment. It's far better to get the new person in, even for one time, then to say no to anything.

 

I would find suspect any customer who wishes to lock in details in advance of his appointment. I'm sorry to say this, but if you feel any need to insist on a particular action, like "touch my cock or my asshole," you're probably a fool for a customer or worse, something is off about you.

 

Every time I book an appointment with a HE massage therapist, I say in my communication, "I love a sensual man, but the massage is the most important element to me. I will arrive in your studio freshly showered, with no expectations." All I can say to readers is I have never been disappointed in the sensual department. I have had some mediocre massages, though.

 

I can say this from my spa experience, service providers don't like pushy, needy, demanding customers. They can feel and sense when a customer is desperate for something. People who enjoy giving massage tend to be very sensitive. If you drop the desperation and go with the flow of an organic experience, you're likely to experience the best results.

Hey, Roger, you quote me, but I'm not sure all your comments are directed at me. Maybe they are?

 

Anyway, I agree totally: given the (unjust) legal issues around m4m massage, I don't think it's good for the client or the masseur to discuss sexual matters in setting up an initial massage. That's why I never do it. I also agree that ads are not a sufficient way to assess whether a masseur is a good fit. That's why we're all on this site, right: to get additional information?

 

I like the way you write a masseur, but that for me would still feel too suggestive (and I wouldn't expect or hope for HE, if I used the word "sensual" explicitly). I am still holding onto the idea, which has generally served me very well, that between the information I glean on this site about a masseur and the way he advertises himself (erotic is indicated by price ($150/60 currently), pictures (shirtless/nude), and text (ADVERTISING EROTIC)) it should be clear what is expected. We're professionals here!

 

As for verbally asking for things during the massage (which I don't do) or coming across as needy or demanding, which I don't think I do, my point is exactly that: the purpose of the ad--which in the vast majority of my experiences have been accurate--is to indicate what a client can expect. One of the things I like about this site is that my brothers' actual experiences with specific masseurs add information (occasionally the kind that reveals the dishonesty of the ad) to what the masseurs are saying about themselves. On a larger level, I really value the discussion of what the ads themselves mean. There are lots of discussions on this site--all very valuable to me--about things like rates. People often write that an amount is too much for a therapeutic massage, and the top questions are almost always what elements are included in an erotic massage (since beyond nudity, some MT, and some dick/ass contact which should be (rightly) assumed as included, there is an endless range of things which cannot be expected but might occur). One of the chief ways I evaluate whether I will go to a masseur is his price. As I wrote above, I have recently gone to a masseur whose rate of $120/hr and whose ad (on masseurfinder only, with headshots only and without suggestive text) made me understand in advance that sensuality or eroticism would not be involved, and they weren't. I was satisifed and didn't push for or expect anything more. What I have been writing about are ads that falsely advertise erotic massage and, secondarily, about clients who seem to go to bat for masseurs, rather than simply add their positive impressions to the mix.

[rogerG]

I'm not sure all your comments are directed at me.

They weren't.

I don't think it's good for the client or the masseur to discuss sexual matters in setting up an initial massage.

IMO, it depends. Some MTs take their massage work seriously, and they enjoy when their talent is respected. Others, usually those with no accreditation, are more focused on sex. They're basically escorts who pretend to focus on some version of massage. Those who are focused on sex typically don't mind discussing expectations over a phone call or text. They often like to know what's going to happen so they can prepare, mentally and physically.

I like the way you write a masseur, but that for me would still feel too suggestive (and I wouldn't expect or hope for HE, if I used the word "sensual" explicitly).

I don't like guessing games or forcing someone to read my mind. I like honesty and confidence. Ordinary HEs don't work for me anymore because they take too long. Mechanical HEs would leave me flaccid within seconds. It's far better for me to relieve the MT of any expectation or pressure to perform a specific act. With chemistry and the right positive attitude, some major, joyful stuff can happen. I find the organic experience to be far more stimulating than anything else.

 

That said, if sensual doesn't happen, even when I desired it, I don't care. I don't leave disappointed or think I was scammed as long as the massage was worth the time and effort. Chemistry has a lot do with connection, no matter what the ad or photos suggests. You can't force chemistry. I would never take that personally. It's either there or it isn't. No one is at fault.

[Massageislife]

They weren't.

 

IMO, it depends. Some MTs take their massage work seriously, and they enjoy when their talent is respected. Others, usually those with no accreditation, are more focused on sex. They're basically escorts who pretend to focus on some version of massage. Those who are focused on sex typically don't mind discussing expectations over a phone call or text. They often like to know what's going to happen so they can prepare, mentally and physically.

 

I don't like guessing games or forcing someone to read my mind. I like honesty and confidence. Ordinary HEs don't work for me anymore because they take too long. Mechanical HEs would leave me flaccid within seconds. It's far better for me to relieve the MT of any expectation or pressure to perform a specific act. With chemistry and the right positive attitude, some major, joyful stuff can happen. I find the organic experience to be far more stimulating than anything else.

 

That said, if sensual doesn't happen, even when I desired it, I don't care. I don't leave disappointed or think I was scammed as long as the massage was worth the time and effort. Chemistry has a lot do with connection, no matter what the ad or photos suggests. You can't force chemistry. I would never take that personally. It's either there or it isn't. No one is at fault.

I know that I could have maybe have avoided the couple of frustrating experiences of the sort I had with Max if I had asked more questions; it's just not part of how I want to interact with masseurs I haven't met. I guess I will have to swallow a few bad experiences (unless my brothers on this site give me some better heads-ups!).

 

I'm also with you on HE. The first time a masseur succeeded with one on me, I was surprised. I found a few since then that know (or care) what they're doing. Maybe because of this, I don't see HE as implicitly agreed to in an erotic massage, although a lot of us see HE as what differentiates a sensual from an erotic massage. I'm not sure how you're using the word, "sensual," in your post, but I do think some contact with my ass/asshole/dick, even just natural brushing against during the massage, is suggested by "erotic" (not by sensual). What is the difference between the two otherwise?

 

I'm actually happy with the variety of experiences I've had, almost all of them with masseurs who advertised (by price, by photos, by text, and by rate) erotic massage. Those experiences, however, have ranged wildly, from (at the low end) a masseur who kept his underwear on and didn't offer HE but was very open to my touch and treated all of me (including my ass and dick) as parts of my body that would have some role in the massage to (at the high end) one who almost immediately turned the session into a sexual encounter. All of these experiences fall into the range of what I consider "erotic," and I don't have any complaints, even though sometimes (maybe there's no such thing as perfect satisfaction) there was more or less "erotic" elements than I wanted going in. They were still all great and memorable experiences!

 

The "low end" I describe above, however, doesn't have anything to do with chemistry (even if the "higher" levels of eroticism do). If a masseur is not going to get naked or at least underwear, is going to avoid my private parts like the plague, and is going to disallow or tried to avoid MT, then he shouldn't be advertising erotic massage. It's not about reading my mind. I'm responding to what the masseur is saying will be involved in the massage. Non-scammy therapeutic masseurs advertise on masseurfinder only, don't post nude or shirtless photos, don't list "sensual/erotic" as one of their modalities, or don't charge the erotic rate. If a masseur really does offer different modalities at different rates, he should find a way to communicate this to the client. I don't care if a therapeutic masseur doesn't give me extras; in fact, comments on this site about hoping for free "extras" bugs me. Respect goes both ways! But I do care if I pay for advertised service, and I don't get it. I want the m4m massage experience to be, first of all legal (We're fucking adults, here!), but, while it's still got a semi-underground status, I want it to be--on both sides--as professional as possible.

Edited September 8, 2019 by Massageislife

[MmM]

Every time I book an appointment with a HE massage therapist, I say in my communication, "I love a sensual man, but the massage is the most important element to me. I will arrive in your studio freshly showered, with no expectations." All I can say to readers is I have never been disappointed in the sensual department. I have had some mediocre massages, though.

 

I can say this from my spa experience, service providers don't like pushy, needy, demanding customers. They can feel and sense when a customer is desperate for something. People who enjoy giving massage tend to be very sensitive. If you drop the desperation and go with the flow of an organic experience, you're likely to experience the best results.

 

I like this. I may have to try this. But then again, I do my research here in the forum before reaching out to a therapist and I like to know in advance what his limitations are. This is not to say I get pushy the entire session. I like a good message with some sensual contact in the end. There are no one-fits-all recipe for all MT. You gotta be able to read the room, and see if and when you should let your desires be known. This doesn't mean grabbing and pushing your agenda . It means asking for permission. I am a firm believer of direct communication.

[MarkNY]

Just got stood up by JohnSport / Max.

Set a massage time for a 90 minutes but he could only do later in the day. Confirmed. All with texts, Then minutes later asks if we can do an hour earlier. I agree. And another few minutes and he's asking to move it a further ten minutes. I agree but make sure I am not going to get rushed as this sure sounds like someone lining clients up closely. Confirms it is not a rush. So be it. We agree and again confirm the new earlier time. I text yes and he thanks me. I arrive at his place, not quite a half hour travel-time for me to get to, to be let in and meet him at his door WITH ANOTHER CLIENT INSIDE. He says he mistyped (at least four times) and would be happy to see me if I just went somewhere and waited an hour. I said absolutely no way and walked. YMMV indeed.

He did answer the door shirtless, so someone got to that level. The body is very good, but not what he's advertising...

[cptnastro]

Just got stood up by JohnSport / Max.

Set a massage time for a 90 minutes but he could only do later in the day. Confirmed. All with texts, Then minutes later asks if we can do an hour earlier. I agree. And another few minutes and he's asking to move it a further ten minutes. I agree but make sure I am not going to get rushed as this sure sounds like someone lining clients up closely. Confirms it is not a rush. So be it. We agree and again confirm the new earlier time. I text yes and he thanks me. I arrive at his place, not quite a half hour travel-time for me to get to, to be let in and meet him at his door WITH ANOTHER CLIENT INSIDE. He says he mistyped (at least four times) and would be happy to see me if I just went somewhere and waited an hour. I said absolutely no way and walked. YMMV indeed.

He did answer the door shirtless, so someone got to that level. The body is very good, but not what he's advertising...

 

Sucks that that happened, but he didn't stand you up. It's a bit misleading to open with that. Being stood up would mean he didn't show up or was there and then left upon seeing you. Not excusing his behavior at all, and yeah the miscommunication via text multiple times is very messy.

 

As far as the body goes, I was there last week, and can gladly confirm his photos are accurate.

[Massageislife]

Sucks that that happened, but he didn't stand you up. It's a bit misleading to open with that. Being stood up would mean he didn't show up or was there and then left upon seeing you. Not excusing his behavior at all, and yeah the miscommunication via text multiple times is very messy.

 

As far as the body goes, I was there last week, and can gladly confirm his photos are accurate.

cptnastro, there's no need to be an apologist for this behavior. Arriving on time and being told to come back an hour later is a form of being "stood up." Why would one believe that when one returned things would be any different, especially given what you call the "messy" texting?

[rogerG]

Just got stood up by JohnSport / Max.

Holy shit. He sounds like a complete mess. I would have been horrified if that had happened to me. Minutes later I would have been pissed. He's one to avoid.

[cptnastro]

cptnastro, there's no need to be an apologist for this behavior. Arriving on time and being told to come back an hour later is a form of being "stood up." Why would one believe that when one returned things would be any different, especially given what you call the "messy" texting?

 

I don't mean to apologize for his behavior, although, I reread what I wrote and I don't see where I apologized or excused what he did at all.

 

Holy shit. He sounds like a complete mess. I would have been horrified if that had happened to me. Minutes later I would have been pissed. He's one to avoid.

 

With that said, I find it troublesome when people start to post things like, "He's one to avoid" based on a solo review. I've seen it before in other threads, specifically about a Russian named Alex, who was positively and negatively reviewed in his thread and he jumped in to clear some things up. The tone of the thread took a turn with people understanding where he was coming from and it seemed to level the playing field. Obviously, these are two different situations, but as Max is someone who I have seen over the past two years, I feel the need to speak up.

 

Again, I'm not excusing what he did, but I don't think he should be put on some kind of "avoid him" list. I had a very popular masseur on here cancel on me an hour before our appointment (I was already en route) after confirming the night before and the morning of the appointment, as he mixed up his calendar and forgot he had something to do. Was it highly annoying, yes, but shit happens, he apologized and I rescheduled and had a great time.

 

Just pointing out that there are two sides of the coin, and that perhaps, we shouldn't be so quick to label/judge.

[LookingAround]

I don’t get this phobia of stating what you want in a massage from a masseur. If I may, many of you are playing footsie with the masseur in your texts beating around the bush then disappointed when you don’t receive what you secretly hope for. I always say I’m looking for a great massage with both of us nude and a HE and ask if that’s what they offer. Most say yes. Those who don’t answer or who say no then I don’t book. I’m virtually never disappointed. I’m not ashamed to in one sentence say what I’m looking for and ask if that’s what they do.

[Jim_n_NYC]

I don’t get this phobia of stating what you want in a massage from a masseur. If I may, many of you are playing footsie with the masseur in your texts beating around the bush then disappointed when you don’t receive what you secretly hope for. I always say I’m looking for a great massage with both of us nude and a HE and ask if that’s what they offer. Most say yes. Those who don’t answer or who say no then I don’t book. I’m virtually never disappointed. I’m not ashamed to in one sentence say what I’m looking for and ask if that’s what they do.

It's not necessarily a "phobia". Since the massage is really what I am going for but anything else I get is gravy (to me). If I know before hand everything that is going to happen then that spoils the eroticism for me. My last massage, the guy didn't specify and I didn't know if he would even get nude, but when I rolled over, he was nude, he then started an HE after a bit, and then even more happened. That was much more exciting for me than knowing "I'm going to do A, B, C" before hand.

Everyone has their likes and dislikes...I wouldn't go so far as calling someone else's way of approaching eroticism a "phobia".

[Massageislife]

I don't mean to apologize for his behavior, although, I reread what I wrote and I don't see where I apologized or excused what he did at all.

 

 

 

With that said, I find it troublesome when people start to post things like, "He's one to avoid" based on a solo review. I've seen it before in other threads, specifically about a Russian named Alex, who was positively and negatively reviewed in his thread and he jumped in to clear some things up. The tone of the thread took a turn with people understanding where he was coming from and it seemed to level the playing field. Obviously, these are two different situations, but as Max is someone who I have seen over the past two years, I feel the need to speak up.

 

Again, I'm not excusing what he did, but I don't think he should be put on some kind of "avoid him" list. I had a very popular masseur on here cancel on me an hour before our appointment (I was already en route) after confirming the night before and the morning of the appointment, as he mixed up his calendar and forgot he had something to do. Was it highly annoying, yes, but shit happens, he apologized and I rescheduled and had a great time.

 

Just pointing out that there are two sides of the coin, and that perhaps, we shouldn't be so quick to label/judge.

cpnastro, it does come across as an apology, if you say that say that a poster's experience isn't what he says it is (a stand-up). If I hadn't already had a negative experience with Max myself, hearing about Mark's experience would be a deal-breaker for considering him. NYC is too full of attractive, nice, responsible masseurs.

 

I'm glad you had a good experience with Max, and you should post it--and you have now. Hearing about positive experiences are one of the reasons we use this site. Hearing about bad ones is another reason, and I'm concerned when people weigh in in ways that sound like defenses of or advocacy for masseurs. You weren't there and don't challenge the substance of what MarkNY describes, so please let the rest of us do with that information what we will.

[Massageislife]

I don’t get this phobia of stating what you want in a massage from a masseur. If I may, many of you are playing footsie with the masseur in your texts beating around the bush then disappointed when you don’t receive what you secretly hope for. I always say I’m looking for a great massage with both of us nude and a HE and ask if that’s what they offer. Most say yes. Those who don’t answer or who say no then I don’t book. I’m virtually never disappointed. I’m not ashamed to in one sentence say what I’m looking for and ask if that’s what they do.

LookingAround, I'm not sure which of us you are referring to (I'm sure I'm one of them), but you aren't characterizing the issue correctly. I don't hear anyone describing "playing footsie" or "beating around the bush." We don't "secretly" want erotic massage (i.e., both nude, HE). If we reach out with a text, "Hello, my name is X. I saw your ad on rentmasseur and would like to schedule an appointment." Many of us don't want to write, in our initial outreach, that we want a masseur to be nude and provide HE. (No one is criticizing you for doing so.) There are several, non-paranoid reasons for this. Given the legal precariousness of erotic massage, I don't like putting myself and a stranger in an awkward position in our first communications. I also think that asking a masseur one hasn't met to perform naked and jack one off will chase of masseurs who otherwise might do these things. Meeting completely changes the dynamic.

 

Like you, I'm virtually never disappointed, and I use a combination of reading the masseur's ads (he advertises "erotic," he has shirtless or nude photos, and posts an "erotic" rate ($150-160)) and reviewing what my brothers on this site report about their experiences. That is why I'm frustrated by the unusual, defensive/protective treatment of masseurs like the one this thread is devoted to. I'm frankly suspicious that any criticisms of him immediately brings out defenders. People are clearly having mixed experiences with him. I wish we'd leave it at that.

[cptnastro]

cpnastro, it does come across as an apology, if you say that say that a poster's experience isn't what he says it is (a stand-up). If I hadn't already had a negative experience with Max myself, hearing about Mark's experience would be a deal-breaker for considering him. NYC is too full of attractive, nice, responsible masseurs.

 

I'm glad you had a good experience with Max, and you should post it--and you have now. Hearing about positive experiences are one of the reasons we use this site. Hearing about bad ones is another reason, and I'm concerned when people weigh in in ways that sound like defenses of or advocacy for masseurs. You weren't there and don't challenge the substance of what MarkNY describes, so please let the rest of us do with that information what we will.

 

So it's not ok if someone counters an experience someone else has and says positive things about a masseur, because it is a "defense or advocacy" for said masseur? Right.

 

And by definition, what happened to him isn't being stood up. "To fail to meet someone for a date, meeting, or appointment, especially without telling them." So, I was only seeking to clarify that, because I find what he wrote to be misleading; and that is something I am aloud to do. Thanks.

[Massageislife]

So it's not ok if someone counters an experience someone else has and says positive things about a masseur, because it is a "defense or advocacy" for said masseur? Right.

 

And by definition, what happened to him isn't being stood up. "To fail to meet someone for a date, meeting, or appointment, especially without telling them." So, I was only seeking to clarify that, because I find what he wrote to be misleading; and that is something I am aloud to do. Thanks.

cpnastro, you're obviously able to do whatever you want. You're continuing to do it.

 

There's a difference, however, between posting a positive experience about a masseur and challenging another poster's experience. There is nothing misleading about what Mark wrote. He described it plainly, and you don't contest it. You weren't there, in any case. Your nitpicking the phase, "stand up," a phrase everyone understands the meaning of, is your putative reason for coming to Max's defense, but he does not need your defense. Our role is not to recruit clients for masseurs.