Solicitation specifics

[Bayman4Fun]

I searched "solicitation", looked through the 10 pages of threads and couldn't find an answer to my question.

 

As best I interpret it... solicitation is not illegal, solicitation of prostitution, or in some cases (minors) solicitation of sex is illegal.

 

So, where exactly is the prostitution demarcation line?

 

Would a guy who runs an ad seeking someone to talk dirty to him while he masturbates be guilty? Someone who just wants to cuddle? Sniff undies? Domination with no conventionally-defined sex? Strippers/lap dances?

 

Is there a broad interpretation of sex that triggers prostitution? Would hiring a guy to sit at the other end of the sofa and watch porn together, JO at same time be a sexual act, making it prostitution?

 

FYI... none of these are my interests.... I have uber-smartass tendencies, so i understand .... please repress the urge for funny comments, or at least add something constructive along with the witticism

[+ José Soplanucas]

FYI... none of these are my interests.... I have uber-smartass tendencies, so i understand .... please repress the urge for funny comments, or at least add something constructive along with the witticism

 

This will be my birthday present for you.

 

http://joevannortwick.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/joe.jpg

So I am not respecting your warning but I did hear your call for something constructive.

 

We need a lawyer.

[misterlobo]

This guy I knew took several law classes and told me how he learned that technically the people who give out free hugs are committing an illegal act because technically that counts as prostitution (but no one cares obv)

So I don't know, but it seems like the vagueness of definition allows a lot to be criminalized when one feels like it ?

[+ José Soplanucas]

This guy I knew took several law classes and told me how he learned that technically the people who give out free hugs are committing an illegal act because technically that counts as prostitution (but no one cares obv)

So I don't know, but it seems like the vagueness of definition allows a lot to be criminalized when one feels like it ?

 

That was my first thought, but then I could not remember any case of debating prostitution's definition but Pornography's. You are probably correct, the lack of clear definition gives free ground to interpretation and discretionally.

 

We need a lawyer. @bigjoey @quoththeraven

[Bayman4Fun]

This will be my birthday present for you.

 

http://joevannortwick.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/joe.jpg

So I am not respecting your warning but I did hear your call for something constructive.

 

We need a lawyer.

 

Yech.

[+ quoththeraven]

That was my first thought, but then I could not remember any case of debating prostitution's definition but Pornography's. You are probably correct, the lack of clear definition fives free ground to interpretation and discretionally.

 

We need a lawyer. @bigjoey @quoththeraven

I haven't been following this thread but I don't consider the wording of, say, New York's statutes regarding prostitution to be vague as opposed to unwise or more far-reaching than they need to be. (I'm primarily thinking of the way in which laws aimed at pimping and brothels can also be applied to renting to sex workers or to a sex worker collective.)

 

The idea that giving free hugs implicates prostitution laws is laughable for two reasons: although hugs may induce sexual feelings in either party, it is not considered an inherently sexual act, and no money is exchanged.

 

*smh*

[+ quoththeraven]

I searched "solicitation", looked through the 10 pages of threads and couldn't find an answer to my question.

 

As best I interpret it... solicitation is not illegal, solicitation of prostitution, or in some cases (minors) solicitation of sex is illegal.

 

So, where exactly is the prostitution demarcation line?

 

Would a guy who runs an ad seeking someone to talk dirty to him while he masturbates be guilty? Someone who just wants to cuddle? Sniff undies? Domination with no conventionally-defined sex? Strippers/lap dances?

 

Is there a broad interpretation of sex that triggers prostitution? Would hiring a guy to sit at the other end of the sofa and watch porn together, JO at same time be a sexual act, making it prostitution?

 

FYI... none of these are my interests.... I have uber-smartass tendencies, so i understand .... please repress the urge for funny comments, or at least add something constructive along with the witticism

It's the exchange of money for sex that is illegal. The implication is that sex involves the participation of the person who is being paid. (Otherwise it's not an exchange.) As a result, I don't think any of the things you mention constitute prostitution, assuming that the jerk off scenario is limited to each man yanking his own dick. In that case, you're paying for voyeurism, not sex. (If that were illegal, camming and watching porn would be illegal too.) But paying someone to jerk you off would almost certainly be considered prostitution. Any form of penetration in exchange for payment will be considered prostitution because there is widespread agreement that penetration is inherently sexual.

[Bayman4Fun]

It's the exchange of money for sex that is illegal. The implication is that sex involves the participation of the person who is being paid. (Otherwise it's not an exchange.) As a result, I don't think any of the things you mention constitute prostitution, assuming that the jerk off scenario is limited to each man yanking his own dick. In that case, you're paying for voyeurism, not sex. (If that were illegal, camming and watching porn would be illegal too.) But paying someone to jerk you off you would almost certainly be considered prostitution. Any form of penetration in exchange for payment will be considered prostitution because there is widespread agreement that penetration is inherently sexual.

What you've written seems to be the logical interpretation.

 

I was just wondering if some DA, or local jurisdiction, could make the case that if its sexual in nature, its sex and therefore prostitution. Or, if touch matters. I'll build a ludicrous hypothetical based on a previous reply:

 

If someone hired a guy and got their jollies removing his skid-marked undies, patted his butt in appreciation, sat there and masturbated......but no act we think of as 2-person sex took place.......

[+ José Soplanucas]

What you've written seems to be the logical interpretation.

 

I was just wondering if some DA, or local jurisdiction, could make the case that if its sexual in nature, its sex and therefore prostitution. Or, if touch matters. I'll build a ludicrous hypothetical based on a previous reply:

 

If someone hired a guy and got their jollies removing his skid-marked undies, patted his butt in appreciation, sat there and masturbated......but no act we think of as 2-person sex took place.......

 

Now you are making me horny.

[Bayman4Fun]

Now you are making me horny.

If I ever produce a skidmark, you can come take them off my fat ass. I'll even sing a Broadway Showtune while you're at it.

[+ quoththeraven]

What you've written seems to be the logical interpretation.

 

I was just wondering if some DA, or local jurisdiction, could make the case that if its sexual in nature, its sex and therefore prostitution. Or, if touch matters. I'll build a ludicrous hypothetical based on a previous reply:

 

If someone hired a guy and got their jollies removing his skid-marked undies, patted his butt in appreciation, sat there and masturbated......but no act we think of as 2-person sex took place.......

Anyone can argue anything (except for those benighted folks who have abused the court system so often their filings are subject to review and sanction if they don't pass muster), but that has the detrimental effect of decreasing one's credibility with judges. Most prosecutors have easier ways to play fast and loose with the law (primarily by failing to reveal exculpatory evidence) than this one.

[+ Travis69]

If I ever produce a skidmark, you can come take them off my fat ass. I'll even sing a Broadway Showtune while you're at it.

Will singing the Broadway Showtune cost extra??????

[Bayman4Fun]

Will singing the Broadway Showtune cost extra??????

Depends on the request.

 

To accompany the skid mark tease, I can perform

1. Food Glorious Food! from Oliver
   
2. What do the simple folk do? from Camelot, or
   
3. This is the Moment! from Jekyl & Hyde
   

[AndreFuture]

Just film the encounter and say you're making porn. Problem solved!

[+ MostlyLurking]

If you want to know what is illegal prostitution, the way to find out is to look at the law. There's some variation from state to state. Here's what it says in Illinois.

 

Any person who knowingly performs, offers or agrees to perform any act of sexual penetration as defined, . . . for anything of value, or any touching or fondling of the sex organs of one person by another person, for anything of value, for the purpose of sexual arousal or gratification commits an act of prostitution. 720 ILCS 5/11-14 (a).

 

And here's what it says about solicitation.

 

A person commits the offense of solicitation when, with intent that an offense be committed. . . , he or she commands, encourages, or requests another to commit that offense. 720 ILCS 5/8-1 (a)

 

("Start with the statute" is an important lessons for lawyers that law school usually seems to teach pretty well. Two more lessons law school usually misses are learning to say "I don't know" and "It was my fault.")

 

So, to Bayman4Fun, the OP:

 

"Would a guy who runs an ad seeking someone to talk dirty to him while he masturbates be guilty?" No. First, running an ad wouldn't be prostitution, it would be soliciting for prostitution. Second, there's no "touching of the sex organs of one person by another."

 

"Someone who just wants to cuddle?" Cuddling is probably OK.

 

"Sniff undies?" No problem.

 

The balance of the questions are left as exercises for the student.

[+ quoththeraven]

New York law is less specific than Illinois', but yes, it's always best to start with the statute.

 

A person is guilty of prostitution when such person engages or agrees or offers to engage in sexual conduct with another person in return for a fee.

 

NYS Penal Law Section 230.00.

 

http://ypdcrime.com/penal.law/article230.htm#p230.07

 

"Sexual conduct" is not defined; thus, its definition is left up to the courts. http://statelaws.findlaw.com/new-york-law/new-york-prostitution-laws.html