Backpage CEO arrested

[+ Keith30309]

The problem is that the people who are pushing these crackdowns fail to acknowledge that difference. We are all opposed to the sexual abuse of minors and the coercion of vulnerable people into sex work against their will. But many people are also ideologically opposed to voluntary sex work by consenting adults. Indeed, these people often refuse to accept that this kind of work should ever be seen as voluntary or legitimate, since they believe it is inherently maladaptive and immoral. (see, for example, http://seattleops.org/what-we-do/mens-accountability/; an alternative ideology, to which I tend to subscribe, can be found here: https://sexworkclients.org/myths-vs-facts/ ).

 

These folks seek the “abolition” of prostitution by trying to “end demand.” And while this is obviously a silly goal that they will never achieve, they have been very successful recently in using the prosecutorial apparatus of the State to crack down on webpages and webpage operators to further their agenda. (see, for example, http://seattleops.org/buyer-beware/, http://www.companyofmen.org/threads/followup-on-amnesty-internationals-call-for-decriminalization.113549/, http://www.companyofmen.org/threads/crackdown-continues.110695/). This success is not because everyone agrees with their philosophy—opinion is actually quite divided about legalization as a general matter—rather, it is because they and the government authorities involved focus their public statements exclusively on cases of minors and coercion/trafficking, about which there is a widespread consensus. In essence, they disguise their effort to crack down on all prostitution (about which people are ambivalent) by constantly conflating it with the most abusive forms of prostitution that everyone is against. That is why I, for one, am always skeptical when I see these arrests and website seizures justified by the need to protect vulnerable women and children. While this is a real problem, I don’t thinking shutting down escort advertising sites like Redbook, Rentboy, or TheReviewBoard.net, or arresting the CEO of Backpage is the solution.

 

Agree completely.

I would add that there are for-profit entities who have a financial stake in the game of incarcerating as many people as possible for non-violent offenses and they heavily influence law-makers and law-enforcers.

 

It's no coincidence that more than 3/4 of the contributions to tough-on-crime Sheriff Joe Arpio's $10m reelection war chest came from outside Arizona. $10m in contributions to a sheriff!

[Newly]

Here we go again. Posters ranting about how the US is prudish and making it seem like all liberal(s) and liberal countries allow these activities and spouting all sorts of questionable studies. Interesting how no one seems to be aware that many countries that we consider ultra liberal such as the Scandinavian countries and the Netherlands have backed off from legalized prostitution and many of them such as Sweden have enacted laws against it, by now prosecuting the johns. Their experience after years of legalization has been that it fostered other crimes and exploitation - and they apply both to female and male subjects. Meanwhile other countries such as Thailand that few people would consider a bastion of liberalism turn a blind eye to it. You are free to believe what you want but at least try to present a balanced view instead of blinding assuming that one's opinion on this subject is a litmus test for being progressive and forward thinking.

[+ quoththeraven]

Here we go again. Posters ranting about how the US is prudish and making it seem like all liberal(s) and liberal countries allow these activities and spouting all sorts of questionable studies. Interesting how no one seems to be aware that many countries that we consider ultra liberal such as the Scandinavian countries and the Netherlands have backed off from legalized prostitution and many of them such as Sweden have enacted laws against it, by now prosecuting the johns. Their experience after years of legalization has been that it fostered other crimes and exploitation - and they apply both to female and male subjects. Meanwhile other countries such as Thailand that few people would consider a bastion of liberalism turn a blind eye to it. You are free to believe what you want but at least try to present a balanced view instead of blinding assuming that one's opinion on this subject is a litmus test for being progressive and forward thinking.

 

Not true. There have been extensive discussions of all models of dealing with sex work, including the Scandinavian model, going back at least to shortly after I joined the site in 2014. I was even willing to give the Scandinavian model the benefit of the doubt if it actually decreased trafficking, but have since been convinced by academic research that the touted effects are primarily, maybe even entirely, PR on the part of law enforcement and social service agencies.

 

Moreover, I'm as opposed to legalization a la Germany and the Netherlands (or those parts of Nevada where female sex work is legal) as I am to the Scandinavian model. I want decriminalization, not legalization. If the parties are adults and whatever happens is consensual and non-coerced (i.e., no trafficking or exploitation), I want the government to butt out.

 

(Saminseattle's post above also touches on some of this.)

[+ Gar1eth]

 

Moreover, I'm as opposed to legalization a la Germany and the Netherlands (or those parts of Nevada where female sex work is legal) as I am to the Scandinavian model. I want decriminalization, not legalization. If the parties are adults and whatever happens is consensual and non-coerced (i.e., no trafficking or exploitation), I want the government to butt out.

 

(Saminseattle's post above also touches on some of this.)

 

Isn't decriminalization de facto legalization? I mean it's saying they won't penalize you but they aren't actually 'brave enough' to say, 'OK it's now legal for consenting adults to pay someone to get your rocks off with'.

 

 

And speaking of the world's oldest profession, this just in...

 

 

 

 

Rentboy CEO cuts deal with feds to reduce sentence on prostitution charge

 

https://www.google.com/amp/www.lgbtqnation.com/2016/10/rentboy-ceo-cuts-deal-feds-reduce-sentence-prostitution-charge/amp/

 

Gman

[+ quoththeraven]

Isn't decriminalization de facto legalization? I mean it's saying they won't penalize you but they aren't actually 'brave enough' to say, 'OK it's now legal for consenting adults to pay someone to get your rocks off with'.

 

 

And speaking of the world's oldest profession, this just in...

 

 

 

 

Rentboy CEO cuts deal with feds to reduce sentence on prostitution charge

 

https://www.google.com/amp/www.lgbtqnation.com/2016/10/rentboy-ceo-cuts-deal-feds-reduce-sentence-prostitution-charge/amp/

 

Gman

 

Sorta, but they're actually very different. Legalization usually includes regulation, which keeps government and the police involved. It also seems to encourage sweatshop-style sex work, at least for women. This is a problem in Germany and the Netherlands; the Netherlands went from decriminalization to legalization, and arguably it was not an improvement.

 

Germany has factory-style brothels that are not many steps up from descriptions of the experiences of women trafficked into sex work by the Japanese military during the Second World War. And Japan itself is an example of the downside of legal, state-regulated sex work by women for men prior to it being outlawed in the late 1950s. (Sex work by men for men was more casual and unregulated - in effect, decriminalized, not legalized. I'm not sure what its status is now.)

 

There's another thread going on the Rentboy plea deal.

[+ Gar1eth]

Sorta, but they're actually very different. Legalization usually includes regulation, which keeps government and the police involved. It also seems to encourage sweatshop-style sex work, at least for women. This is a problem in Germany and the Netherlands; the Netherlands went from decriminalization to legalization, and arguably it was not an improvement.

 

Germany has factory-style brothels that are not many steps up from descriptions of the experiences of women trafficked into sex work by the Japanese military during the Second World War. And Japan itself is an example of the downside of legal, state-regulated sex work by women for men prior to it being outlawed in the late 1950s. (Sex work by men for men was more casual and unregulated - in effect, decriminalized, not legalized. I'm not sure what its status is now.)

 

There's another thread going on the Rentboy plea deal.

 

I always appreciate your explanations.

 

It's weird though that registration would lead to worse conditions. At least with registrations there are usually enforced medical check ups, aren't there?

 

Gman

[coriolis888]

1

[+ quoththeraven]

Here we go again. Posters ranting about how the US is prudish and making it seem like all liberal(s) and liberal countries allow these activities and spouting all sorts of questionable studies. Interesting how no one seems to be aware that many countries that we consider ultra liberal such as the Scandinavian countries and the Netherlands have backed off from legalized prostitution and many of them such as Sweden have enacted laws against it, by now prosecuting the johns. Their experience after years of legalization has been that it fostered other crimes and exploitation - and they apply both to female and male subjects. Meanwhile other countries such as Thailand that few people would consider a bastion of liberalism turn a blind eye to it. You are free to believe what you want but at least try to present a balanced view instead of blinding assuming that one's opinion on this subject is a litmus test for being progressive and forward thinking.

 

Another thing I forgot to mention, but which the thread on the Rentboy plea deal reminded me of, is that after much study, last year Amnesty International came out in favor of decriminalization. As you can imagine, this decision was controversial, to say the least. The Lancet (the premiere British medical journal) also supports decrminalization.

 

In other words, Amnesty considers sex worker rights to be human rights and believes the evidence shows that decriminalization advances sex worker rights and human freedom and makes it easier for the people actually trafficked and actually at risk to get help that is effective.

[+ saminseattle]

It looks as though Backpage is preparing to mount a vigorous defense. http://wtop.com/national/2016/10/the-latest-backpage-com-ceo-waives-extradition/ Unlike Mr. Hurant and RB, who appear to have been caught completely flatfooted and unprepared, with no money to defend themselves after their assets were seized by the feds, I suspect that this was not a complete surprise to Mr. Ferrer. Backpage has been aggressively fighting in the courts for several years, sometimes winning, sometimes losing, and they undoubtedly have been watching the RB case and others over the last couple of years. Presumably, they did some planning for this contingency and have set some money aside that will not be so easily seized by the government. Some have even predicted that they may win: https://news.vice.com/article/backpage-ceo-arrested-on-pimping-charges-but-they-probably-wont-stick, though I’m not so sure about this. Increasingly, it seems that webpage operators are being held responsible for what third parties post on their pages, http://www.companyofmen.org/threads/rentmen-versus-airbnb.115627/, and the First Amendment may not be as protective of peoples’ freedom as previously thought.

 

A few more observations:

 

1) Again, it is important to remember that while the people pushing this prosecution focus their public rhetoric on cases involving minors, which is of course a real and terrible problem, their remedies are not at all limited to this problem. In fact, their goal is to drive all escort ads off the Internet, and if this prosecution is successful, that may eventually be the result. http://www.nytimes.com/2016/10/07/us/carl-ferrer-backpage-ceo-is-arrested.html?_r=0

 

2) Backpage is apparently a Dutch owed LLC. While I don’t know the exact situation with RM, some have said it is similarly based in Holland and therefore, it need not worry about overzealous US prosecutors. But if that analogy is valid, RM employees would still have to worry about flying to the U.S., since here, the CEO was arrested when his plane arrived from Amsterdam.

 

3) IMHO, it is very unfortunate both that RB was not better prepared for the raid that happened last year and that they were not given more resources when they were attacked. Mr. Hurant was obviously no angel and was probably not the ideal poster child, but Backpage, while being better prepared, is far less sympathetic. With RB, there was no evidence that the site was used to traffic minors; with Backpage, there is clear evidence that this did occur in some cases and that the site’s screening methods were insufficient to prevent it. I still think that if people use a website to do something so terrible, the proper response of LE is to go after those individuals rather than shutting down the entire website, but now that Mr. Hurant has pleaded guilty, I can see people arguing, “If they could legally shut down the relatively innocuous RB, surely they can shut down the far more problematic BP.”

 

4) Over the last two years the government has become increasing aggressive in shutting down escort advertising websites and arresting their operators. Given this trend, people who rely on these sites to find companionship or to advertise such services might want to think about what they would do if RM and M4RN suddenly shut down as well. http://www.companyofmen.org/threads/rentmen-down.111542/page-2

[+ quoththeraven]

I always appreciate your explanations.

 

It's weird though that registration would lead to worse conditions. At least with registrations there are usually enforced medical check ups, aren't there?

 

Gman

 

Yes, but once again, it's government control and government doctors, a combination that is more likely to lead to corruption and malfeasance than letting the market take care of things.

 

I wouldn't mind requiring mandatory disclosures about testing, condom use and other safer sex practices, like hepatitis vaccinations. I think that should be considered best practices by escorts anyway. But that's it. Let escorts see their own doctors. Let clients choose which escorts to see. Under decriminalization, clients and escorts would have legal recourse for assaults, thefts and failure to pay.

[+ Gar1eth]

Yes, but once again, it's government control and government doctors, a combination that is more likely to lead to corruption and malfeasance than letting the market take care of things.

 

I don't think I can agree with you here. I'm not saying fraud and corruption doesn't go on in government. But it goes on everywhere. Look at what Mylan did with the Epipen. It might not be technically illegal, but it was certainly morally shady. Then there's the cigarette industry denying what they knew about the dangers of smoking for years. Or let's take the fracking industry with it's denials of not causing earthquakes or contaminating groundwater supplies.

 

 

 

Gman

[LADoug1]

Another thing I forgot to mention, but which the thread on the Rentboy plea deal reminded me of, is that after much study, last year Amnesty International came out in favor of decriminalization. As you can imagine, this decision was controversial, to say the least. The Lancet (the premiere British medical journal) also supports decrminalization.

 

In other words, Amnesty considers sex worker rights to be human rights and believes the evidence shows that decriminalization advances sex worker rights and human freedom and makes it easier for the people actually trafficked and actually at risk to get help that is effective.

Another reason to support Amnesty International.

[LADoug1]

Yes, but once again, it's government control and government doctors, a combination that is more likely to lead to corruption and malfeasance than letting the market take care of things.

 

I wouldn't mind requiring mandatory disclosures about testing, condom use and other safer sex practices, like hepatitis vaccinations. I think that should be considered best practices by escorts anyway. But that's it. Let escorts see their own doctors. Let clients choose which escorts to see. Under decriminalization, clients and escorts would have legal recourse for assaults, thefts and failure to pay.

What's wrong with having legal recourse?

[+ quoththeraven]

What's wrong with having legal recourse?

 

Nothing. I'm saying that if sex work is decriminalized, anyone who is assaulted, robbed, or not paid can go to the police. That's a good thing, not a bad thing.

[mike carey]

What's wrong with having legal recourse?

Nothing is wrong with it. The point is that when sex work is illegal, workers don't have such recourse and decriminalisation offers it. I recall reading on an academic site covering sex work a story of a sex worker hailing a cop in Auckland when her client had refused to pay, and the cop told him he had to pay. Even recourse that simple is important.

[+ Gar1eth]

Another reason to support Amnesty International.

 

Not a particular fan.

 

http://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2015/04/is_amnesty_international_antisemitic.html

 

Gman

[Rod Hagen]

Nicholas Kristof must be happy.

[MiamiLooker]

What's wrong with having legal recourse?

It's a good thing. The escort winds up being sued on Judge Judy for not providing the service paid for by the client. This might prove more valuable than the promotional reviews.

[Michael Wayne]

Another reason supporting why the APPS are rising and the escort biz is dying. First our US GOVT attacked craigslist...then Rentboy and now backpage. Sadly, the apps are openly hostile to male escorts and any mention or reference of money on any APP is an immediate lifetime ban. For a nation that claims a sexual revolution and openness this is a shame and It shows why we are 20 trillion in debt. I believe there is some human trafficking but there are also gigolos like me who are capitalists and entrepeneurs who chose to make a lot of money. No one forced me to be a male escort. I was cute as hell....had a rocking ripped body and a 9 inch cock when I was in my 20s and I chose it!!! I still do.......

[escortrod]

Another reason supporting why the APPS are rising and the escort biz is dying. First our US GOVT attacked craigslist...then Rentboy and now backpage. Sadly, the apps are openly hostile to male escorts and any mention or reference of money on any APP is an immediate lifetime ban. For a nation that claims a sexual revolution and openness this is a shame and It shows why we are 20 trillion in debt. I believe there is some human trafficking but there are also gigolos like me who are capitalists and entrepeneurs who chose to make a lot of money. No one forced me to be a male escort. I was cute as hell....had a rocking ripped body and a 9 inch cock when I was in my 20s and I chose it!!! I still do.......

I wonder if the dynamic is different here. In London a few of my particularly attractive clients got plenty of attention on 'dating' apps, but still hired me (and presumably other escorts) because they preferred the reliability that came with hiring an escort. While the apps are more convenient than dating websites used to be, there are still significant advantages to hiring escorts.