Beethoven 9

[body2body]

Re Stravinsky, and as long as we're talking abut choral/vocal writing, I don't see the complaints, lol. My father introduced me to the Symphony Of Psalms when I was a young musician (he had the miniature full score, from having studied the piece as a college music student, and I remember following along as I listened) - and it's still among my favorite choral pieces ever. I would also cite his Oedipus Rex as a huge favorite. The music is NOT bad to sing (given the proper training, of course, and good ears), and as much as he was often trying to write dispassionately, I really find so much drama and emotion in his music. I also remember trying to get into The Rake's Progress in my early teens, and though I thought the music was fun, I wasn't yet old enough to understand the very wry sophisticated wit that it lives on. (And I still respond more to pieces like the Symphony Of Psalms and Oedipus Rex, though I certainly appreciate The Rake's Progress a lot more now.) We also sang his Mass in college, which was a fun piece to negotiate.

Salonen chose the Symphony of Psalms and Oedipus Rex for his Valedictory concert as the music director of the L.A. Philharmonic. It was one of the most magnificent concerts I have ever attended. I still often listen to Stravinsky's Mass on Sunday mornings. So I have to disagree with the Stravinsky bashing.

On another note, Whipped Guy might want to know that Theatre des Champs Elysees is doing both Rossini's Hermione, and Il Signor Bruschino. They also have Joyce Di Donato in Handel's Ariodante, and from Salzburg a new production of Norma with Cecilia Bartoli in the title role ( be warned it is set in occupied France during WW 2).

[AdamSmith]

Just to note in passing: Bach knew very well how to write for voice. He just ignored it, as the music came first.

This insight is powerful. He sublimated the powers of ego (inordinately strong in anyone with his abilities) to the service of his aims and ideals, which converged in him.

 

Although not entirely, re subordinating ego.

 

What set me on that thought was that his organ Toccata, Adagio & Fugue in C Major is absurdly demanding of performer. http://www.academia.edu/10739993/The_Organ_Examinations_of_J._S._Bach_and_Their_Influences_on_the_Toccata_Adagio_and_Fugue_in_C_Major_BWV_564 )

 

Long pedal solo alone has for example 32nd-note extended runs in it -- with a trill.

 

He made these as much to test new organs as to challenge other organists of the day.

 

My favorite performance:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GOy__6Uk_cc

[+ honcho]

We also sang his Mass in college, which was a fun piece to negotiate.

 

I mentioned having gone back to school to get a 2nd bachelor's, this time in music. The department did (Stravinki's) Mass just this past may. It's also fun for the instrumentalists

[Despardo]

I have always found Beethoven's vocal writing, be it choral or solo, to be very instrumental in nature and especially in Fidelio and that is what makes it so difficult. What is interesting is that during the same time frame Rossini was composing operas with different types of vocal challenges, a difficulty that while more technical in nature flowed naturally and was not cumbersome or clumsy as was Beethoven's.

 

What is interesting is that during the composition of the Ninth Beethoven meet Rossini in Vienna and mentioned that he was familiar with his operas. It is also interesting to note that during that timeframe Rossini's operas were quite popular in Vienna and the singers who participated in the premiere of the Ninth had performed much Rossini. However, the Italian style seems to have made no impression on Beethoven or for that matter a composer such a Weber who was also active composing operas at that point in time.

 

Regarding tempos in Beethoven, Beethoven's own metronome markings indicate very swift speeds. It has been argued that Beethoven had a defective metronome or didn't know how to use it. Some have compared the relationship of the speeds in each movement of each symphony as an indication of how the speeds in each movement should relate to the other movements as being a better interpretation of Beethoven's metronome markings.

 

Let's just say that those such as Furtwängler and company are on another planet. Still, we are richer for having the ability to experience Furtwängler, Bernstein, etc. as well as Gardner, Norrington, etc.

The theory that Beethoven's metronome (a device with which he was greatly impressed) was broken doesn't always justify some conductor's tempo choices. For example, many conductors take the first movement of the 5th much slower than indicated. But then, the same conductors take the final movement much faster than Beethoven indicated. The point is, you can't have it both ways. Beethoven's metronome if it was off would be off either faster or slower, but not both. A conductor has the right to make his/her own tempo choices (well up to a point,) but don't blame those choices on Beethoven's "defective" metronome.

 

Beethoven was obsessed with correct tempi, which is why he loved metronome markings. He attended the premiere of his 9th, and although completely deaf, watched the performance and followed the score. Later he remarked that the performance was a great success mainly because his tempo markings were scrupulously observed. Even being deaf, the man would have been able to tell whether or not his metronome markings were being followed.

 

Regarding vocal writing (never Beethoven's forte,) the Missa Solemnis is a prime example of how not to write for the human voice, and as with Fidelio and the 9th symphony, Beethoven wrestled and struggled much more with these pieces than he did writing for instruments alone. Nevertheless, he considered the Missa Solemnis his masterpiece.

 

For most of my life I have had a very difficult time with the Missa Solemnis--never liked it or understood it until somewhat recently. I have developed a useful method for coming to terms with great works I do not like. I buy three or more very different recordings of the same piece and compare different conductors' takes on the thing. The more different the interpretations, the better. I have discovered that in listening to radically different performances, I get a better insight into the work itself.

 

I own 3 recordings of the Missa Solemnis: Klemperer, Gardiner, Solti. Mainly by comparing the Klemperer and Gardiner recordings, I was able finally to crack the piece.

[Despardo]

Salonen chose the Symphony of Psalms and Oedipus Rex for his Valedictory concert as the music director of the L.A. Philharmonic. It was one of the most magnificent concerts I have ever attended. I still often listen to Stravinsky's Mass on Sunday mornings. So I have to disagree with the Stravinsky bashing.

On another note, Whipped Guy might want to know that Theatre des Champs Elysees is doing both Rossini's Hermione, and Il Signor Bruschino. They also have Joyce Di Donato in Handel's Ariodante, and from Salzburg a new production of Norma with Cecilia Bartoli in the title role ( be warned it is set in occupied France during WW 2).

I just recently heard the Symphony of Psalms performed live for the first time--Seattle Symphony under Morlot. What a difference a live performance can make. The interplay between the choirs and the winds is amazing. Also on the program was the gargantuan Shostakovich 4th--one of the biggest orchestras I have seen on a stage--quadruple winds, two tubas! It was quite a night.

[whipped guy]

The theory that Beethoven's metronome (a device with which he was greatly impressed) was broken doesn't always justify some conductor's tempo choices. For example, many conductors take the first movement of the 5th much slower than indicated. But then, the same conductors take the final movement much faster than Beethoven indicated. The point is, you can't have it both ways. Beethoven's metronome if it was off would be off either faster or slower, but not both. A conductor has the right to make his/her own tempo choices (well up to a point,) but don't blame those choices on Beethoven's "defective" metronome.

 

Beethoven was obsessed with correct tempi, which is why he loved metronome markings. He attended the premiere of his 9th, and although completely deaf, watched the performance and followed the score. Later he remarked that the performance was a great success mainly because his tempo markings were scrupulously observed. Even being deaf, the man would have been able to tell whether or not his metronome markings were being followed.

 

Regarding vocal writing (never Beethoven's forte,) the Missa Solemnis is a prime example of how not to write for the human voice, and as with Fidelio and the 9th symphony, Beethoven wrestled and struggled much more with these pieces than he did writing for instruments alone. Nevertheless, he considered the Missa Solemnis his masterpiece.

 

For most of my life I have had a very difficult time with the Missa Solemnis--never liked it or understood it until somewhat recently. I have developed a useful method for coming to terms with great works I do not like. I buy three or more very different recordings of the same piece and compare different conductors' takes on the thing. The more different the interpretations, the better. I have discovered that in listening to radically different performances, I get a better insight into the work itself.

 

I own 3 recordings of the Missa Solemnis: Klemperer, Gardiner, Solti. Mainly by comparing the Klemperer and Gardiner recordings, I was able finally to crack the piece.

All you may or may want to know about Beethovrn's metronome...

 

http://www.ams.org/notices/201309/rnoti-p1146.pdf

 

In a nutshell it was located, but was missing parts. The thing that I found most interesting was that since Beethoven was known to have temper tantrums it is said that it might have been damaged by the master himself in a fit of rage.

 

In any event, I have never been able to make any sense out of Beethoven's Missa Solemnis and at this stage in life I really don't care to. In that regard @Despardo is a much better man than I... However, I am a firm believer in owing multiple recordings of the same piece as there is always something different to say, a different perspective that at times can change the whole character of a composition.

 

My piano teacher used to say that every composition or movement in a composition has a few measures that give an indication of the proper tempo. That might be true, but which few measures? As an example take the second movement of Haydn's Piano Sonata Hob. XVI/19. The last few measures of the exposition if taken faster gives the piece a humerous character. If one looks at the portion of the piece when there is a cello like melody deep in the bass that suggests a slower tempo. That removes the humor from the composition and replaces it with a certain Haydnesque nobility. Both approaches work and depending on my mood I will choose one or the other approach. Incidentally this movement might have been in the back of Beethoven's mind when he composed the final movement of his Sonata in F Opus 10 No. 2. That movement is marked Presto (quarter note=160). So perhaps Beethoven liked his Haydn fast as well?!?!?! Who knows?!?!

[gallahadesquire]

On Tempo Markings:

 

Allegro commodo means "fast as shit"

[whipped guy]

On Tempo Markings:

 

Allegro commodo means "fast as shit"

Gee and I always thought that the aria "In quelle trine morbide" from Puccini's Manon Lescaut translated as "In that morbid latrine". Instead it references soft lace! Who woulda thunk!

[TruHart1]

Gee and I always thought that the aria "In quelle trine morbide" from Puccini's Manon Lescaut translated as "In that morbid latrine". Instead it references soft lace! Who woulda thunk!

"In that morbid latrine"? Who taught you Italiano, Whippy? LOL, ROFLMAO! Sure, Geronte is quite an old sugar daddy who might get into water sports but even so, Manon complains to her brother about just how bored she is being kept by him!!! This is not, after all, "Powder Her Face!"

 

TruHart1

[Despardo]

All you may or may want to know about Beethovrn's metronome...

 

http://www.ams.org/notices/201309/rnoti-p1146.pdf

 

In a nutshell it was located, but was missing parts. The thing that I found most interesting was that since Beethoven was known to have temper tantrums it is said that it might have been damaged by the master himself in a fit of rage.

 

In any event, I have never been able to make any sense out of Beethoven's Missa Solemnis and at this stage in life I really don't care to. In that regard @Despardo is a much better man than I... However, I am a firm believer in owing multiple recordings of the same piece as there is always something different to say, a different perspective that at times can change the whole character of a composition.

 

My piano teacher used to say that every composition or movement in a composition has a few measures that give an indication of the proper tempo. That might be true, but which few measures? As an example take the second movement of Haydn's Piano Sonata Hob. XVI/19. The last few measures of the exposition if taken faster gives the piece a humerous character. If one looks at the portion of the piece when there is a cello like melody deep in the bass that suggests a slower tempo. That removes the humor from the composition and replaces it with a certain Haydnesque nobility. Both approaches work and depending on my mood I will choose one or the other approach. Incidentally this movement might have been in the back of Beethoven's mind when he composed the final movement of his Sonata in F Opus 10 No. 2. That movement is marked Presto (quarter note=160). So perhaps Beethoven liked his Haydn fast as well?!?!?! Who knows?!?!

That metronome article is mind-numbingly technical and thorough, but still relies on an enormous amount of speculation. What struck me most is the assertion that Beethoven might have damaged his metronome and not noticed that it was damaged, in other words that the numerical tempo indications had changed. Aside from his difficult personality and temperamental outbursts, there is precious little historical information to support the idea that Beethoven was an idiot. Music is closely related to mathematics. Beethoven was a master of structurally complicated musical forms. That the man would not have noticed that his metronome was giving him numerical readings different from previous readings is absurd. Isn't it more likely that he would think, "Hmmm...I used that marking for this desired tempo before, but now it seems oddly fast. Did something change?" Also, the idea that the numerical marking was equated to the wrong note value due to errors in the published score does not hold water. Beethoven, poor eyesight allowed, was a pretty careful proofreader of his published works, at least those editions he got to see. He once sent a score back to the publisher three times due to a minor error regarding a rhythmic figure. The third time he sent it back with a scrawled note, "What dumb ass got this wrong AGAIN!!!" Yes, errors abound in printed scores, but in most cases, we still have the original manuscripts for scholarly comparison, and modern scores have been appropriately corrected. A man obsessed with correct tempi would hardly have allowed such a crucial mistake to pass--I mean quarter note = 60 as opposed to half note = 60? The difference in tempo there would be enormous! Any such mistake would result in a tempo being twice as slow or fast as intended!

 

Beethoven was a radical composer. He thought way out of the box. Also, he didn't spend much time worrying that some of his compositions were too difficult for (his) contemporary musicians to play. Once when a violinist suggested a minor change to a musical line that would make it more idiomatic for the instrument, Beethoven replied in anger, "What do I care about your wretched violin!" The rapid writing for double basses in the 3rd movement of the 5th symphony demands a technical facility for bass players that did not exist in orchestras at that time. I tend to believe that Beethoven meant what he wrote even if following his instructions to the letter in performance is sometimes impossible. So, it is reasonable for conductors to adjust--a bit.

 

Similarly, Verdi's tempo markings for the first act of La Traviata are astonishingly fast. Toscanini takes it almost as fast as the composer indicated. I have never heard that Verdi had any problems with his metronome.

[bostonman]

Beethoven was a radical composer. He thought way out of the box. Also, he didn't spend much time worrying that some of his compositions were too difficult for (his) contemporary musicians to play. Once when a violinist suggested a minor change to a musical line that would make it more idiomatic for the instrument, Beethoven replied in anger, "What do I care about your wretched violin!"

 

And, coming back to Mr. Stravinsky - he is said to have said that if bassoonists were going to get so good at playing that high-lying passage that opens The Rite Of Spring, he would have written it higher. (In other words, he was purposely looking for it to sound strained.)

[AdamSmith]

And, coming back to Mr. Stravinsky - he is said to have said that if bassoonists were going to get so good at playing that high-lying passage that opens The Rite Of Spring, he would have written it higher. (In other words, he was purposely looking for it to sound strained.)

That is a good hook for this note. For me Beethoven's late quartets justify the human species' existence on earth.

 

As somebody said about the theoretical physicist Richard Feynman:

 

"There are two kinds of geniuses, the 'ordinary' and the 'magicians,' " wrote the mathematician Mark Kac. "An ordinary genius is a fellow that you and I would be just as good as, if we were only many times better. There is no mystery as to how his mind works. Once we understand what they have done, we feel certain that we, too, could have done it. It is different with the magicians. They are, to use mathematical jargon, in the orthogonal complement of where we are and the working of their minds is for all intents and purposes incomprehensible. Even after we understand what they have done, the process by which they have done it is completely dark. Richard Feynman is a magician of the highest caliber."

 

Stravinsky called the Grosse Fugue an "absolutely contemporary piece of music that will be contemporary forever."

 

Beethoven's ability, in the 1820s, to see into 21st-century modes of aesthetic apprehension with his last quartets still defies comprehension.

[bostonman]

That is a good hook for this note. For me Beethoven's late quartets justify the human species' existence on earth.

 

When I was developing as a young pianist, my teacher started trying to get me interested in the thing that was HER passion - chamber music. Now, there was nothing wrong with chamber music per se, but this was around the same time I started getting obsessed with opera and choral music, and realized that the vocal/theatrical sphere was much more of a lure to me, pretty as chamber music could be. I did do some chamber music, but it wasn't MY passion.

 

It wasn't until college that I started to get to know the Beethoven late quartets, in music analysis class. That's one of the few times I can consciously remember where I wished I had been a string player instead.

 

Amazing stuff.

[Despardo]

When I was developing as a young pianist, my teacher started trying to get me interested in the thing that was HER passion - chamber music. Now, there was nothing wrong with chamber music per se, but this was around the same time I started getting obsessed with opera and choral music, and realized that the vocal/theatrical sphere was much more of a lure to me, pretty as chamber music could be. I did do some chamber music, but it wasn't MY passion.

 

It wasn't until college that I started to get to know the Beethoven late quartets, in music analysis class. That's one of the few times I can consciously remember where I wished I had been a string player instead.

 

Amazing stuff.

I heard the Emerson Quartet perform the op. 132 last April in Seattle. It was a mystical experience. It felt as if I, the players and the music had become one. That kind of thing does not happen to me often. The late quartets represent Beethoven at the absolute peak of his genius.

[AdamSmith]

Famous anecdote...

 

The last musical wish of Schubert was to hear the Op. 131 quartet, which he did on 14 November 1828, five days before his death. Upon listening to a performance of the Op. 131 quartet, Schubert remarked, "After this, what is left for us to write?"

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Late_string_quartets_(Beethoven)

[AdamSmith]

http://absadmin.users.sonic.net/schulz/strips/82.jpg

[AdamSmith]

[whipped guy]

I'm probably dating myself, but I actually recall this from too many years ago!! I never had a bust of Beethoven, but I do have one each of Haydn and Mozart. I never had the foresight to purchase a closet full so when Haydn was damaged I had to glue him back together.

[AdamSmith]

Didn't think it was online but just found it! Here is my favorite Grosse Fugue recording, by the Juilliard Quartet.

 

The critics note they are out of tune in many places (true) and the critics have other problems also with the Juilliard late-quartet recordings that I am not Martin Bookspan enough to know the inside baseball of. But for me they deliver the most fulfilling performances of the late quartets of any I know.

 

Herewith their Grosse Fugue:

 

 

(MP3 format or whatever it is over web streaming really emasculates the sound. )

[AdamSmith]

Very nice Lenny preface to his 1970 9th performance. (From his TV show? I can't remember the timing.)

 

[+ g56whiz]

This is a wonderful thread. Huzzahs to you all. It could be assigned to most music appreciation courses even at the college level. But I'm paralyzed by the fear that for the current generation and perhaps two or more before it this is all irrelevant gibberish. Sic Transit Gloria Mundi.