A regular client owes me for a session...now he's avoiding me. How do I collect?

[bluenix]

>...Which in the end will stifle productive

>discourse...

 

Clearly, you are new to the message center. Because if you were a regular reader you would know that productive discourse is anything but the norm here.

 

>While I have had many supportive responses to my post, I have

>also had enough negativity and judgement passed on me and my

>situation to convince me not to post here again.

 

Such a delicate flower. Buck up. An alpha male persona will help you grow your business much more effectively than this mewling and puking.

[+ deej]

>I guess being an asshole isn't against the law, but most

>message boards I've seen have had requirements for users that

>users treat other users with respect.

 

Only the ones that don't allow anonymous posting.

 

We've actually tried to enforce civility from time to time, but you can't make a silk purse from a sow's ear. Trust me, it's better when we let the bitchslaps fly. It's the only form of exercise some of these guys have, it seems.

 

We do sometimes step in when a poster goes over the top, and we've actually banished a few (EXACTLY THREE, before the nattering starts) posters who simply refuse to see the light.

 

Feel free to walk away from this message center if your skin isn't thick enough, but you're not solving anything that way. If anything, you're letting the trolls and baiters win. They post what they do SPECIFICALLY to get under your skin. It only works if you let it.

 

I'm actually getting a chuckle out of "mattgunther". He's using the name of a long-dead pornstar who was best known, while alive, for being a total bitch on the set. He picked his name well. }(

[Boston Guy]

>Such a delicate flower. Buck up. An alpha male persona will

>help you grow your business much more effectively than this

>mewling and puking.

>

 

Nice... the Bard on M4M... perhaps the seven ages of man is particularly appropriate for a place like this, with so many different ages represented. :-)

 

Actually, thinking about it, As You Like It might be a particularly appropriate work for a place like this, where themes of love, suffering, torment and tortured lovers abound.

 

For those not yet familiar with your reference:

 

All the world's a stage,

And all the men and women merely players:

They have their exits and their entrances;

And one man in his time plays many parts,

His acts being seven ages. At first the infant,

Mewling and puking in the nurse's arms.

And then the whining school-boy, with his satchel

And shining morning face, creeping like snail

Unwillingly to school. And then the lover,

Sighing like furnace, with a woeful ballad

Made to his mistress' eyebrow. Then a soldier,

Full of strange oaths and bearded like the pard,

Jealous in honour, sudden and quick in quarrel,

Seeking the bubble reputation

Even in the cannon's mouth. And then the justice,

In fair round belly with good capon lined,

With eyes severe and beard of formal cut,

Full of wise saws and modern instances;

And so he plays his part. The sixth age shifts

Into the lean and slipper'd pantaloon,

With spectacles on nose and pouch on side,

His youthful hose, well saved, a world too wide

For his shrunk shank; and his big manly voice,

Turning again toward childish treble, pipes

And whistles in his sound. Last scene of all,

That ends this strange eventful history,

Is second childishness and mere oblivion,

Sans teeth, sans eyes, sans taste, sans everything.

 

As You Like It (II, vii, 139-143)

 

BG

[noviceny]

Boston Guy,

 

You are awesome !!! Your coffee suggestion was excellent and I dont give a shit if it is naive. Even if it doesnt work, I find by taking the higher road, we can often feel better about a losing situation.

 

Secondly...awesome WS quote !! Totally forgot how beautiful that was,,,

[noviceny]

Paul Benjamin,

 

Dont worry bro..."let nothing disturb you, let nothing frighten you ; all things will change" -STA

[Guest paulbenjaminsf]

The court would not have to take me at my word...

 

I have a full history of e-mails exchanged between myself and the guy in question wherein not only did we discuss the exact amount owed, and the guy actually explicitly promised to pay that exact amount...first he promised to pay it the day after the meeting, in the morning, then later promised to pay in the afternoon, then promised to pay the day after, then promised to pay the day after that, and so on, and all of this is documented in our exchange of e-mail messages.

 

Technically, verbal contracts are legally binding, but you're right: it can sometimes be one person's word against another's. In this case, though, I have plenty of material to prove all aspects of my claim.

[eastbayguy]

>The court would not have to take me at my word...

>

>I have a full history of e-mails exchanged between myself and

>the guy in question wherein not only did we discuss the exact

>amount owed, and the guy actually explicitly promised to pay

>that exact amount...first he promised to pay it the day after

>the meeting, in the morning, then later promised to pay in the

>afternoon, then promised to pay the day after, then promised

>to pay the day after that, and so on, and all of this is

>documented in our exchange of e-mail messages.

>

>Technically, verbal contracts are legally binding, but you're

>right: it can sometimes be one person's word against

>another's. In this case, though, I have plenty of material to

>prove all aspects of my claim.

 

Paul,

 

My experience in California Small Claims Court is limited to two cases. I won both. But let me offer you this perspective. The judges sit in those court rooms day after day watching a rather dreary parade of human misery shuffling past. If you go to small claims court, be very well prepared. Rehearse just like you'd rehearse for a performance on a stage. Be brief and to the point. Make your case with an absolute absence of drama and trauma. Be organized and brief. Be extremely well prepared. Most of all, be credible. Keep your cool and stay calm. Dress up. If you have a suit and tie, wear it. If not, wear the most appropriate attire you have. Judges do take note of how you dress and conduct yourself. Your personal credibility may save the day. Oh, and as Joe Friday always says, "Just The Facts, Ma'am". Coming across well may carry the day for you.

 

Your opponent is a lawyer. He has the advantage in this type of situation. But, your chances are good if you prepare carefully, have your documents all printed, organized and are well rehearsed. One of the legal aid places in SF may have some resources that will be helpful as well.

 

I won both my cases because I made my point clearly and briefly. Both times my defendant started whining about what an evil guy I was and really didn't offer up much of a defense. That's not going to happen in this case. You may get lucky and the guy won't show. Getting a judgement is a first step. Collecting on the judgement may require some effort.

 

Do keep us posted. Sorry you're having to go through this. You don't need the hassle. No one does.

 

--EBG

[Flower]

>Flower,

>How would Paul prove to the court and his client's supervisor

>that Paul is really owed the money? From what Paul said I

>didn't see that he had any evidence (emails, documents etc.)

>that the client promised to give Paul $400 in exchange for

>Paul's time. Without such evidence how could Paul recover if

>the client denied he owed Paul anything? I think Paul's

>client will know that niether the court nor his supervisor

>will take Paul's word on faith.

 

Good questions with many answers }(

 

First, it would never get to court--the client absolutely could not let it be filed let alone go to court. You have to understand that at best Paul is looking at a misdemeanor with a slap on the wrist even if the client could prove Paul guilty of prostitution. The client on the other hand is an attorney and therefore can be suspended from practicing law for (1) soliciting sex for pay or (2) disbarred for committing perjury (if he testifies and lies).

 

Second, Paul cannot be convicted on only the testimony of a coconspirator so Paul is safe, but not the attorney. Further if Paul alleges FRAUD in the "inception" in his small claims complaint, then the court is required to notify the state bar since any allegation of fraud by an attorney, even if it's not committed in the practice of law is a required investigation.

 

So I really don't see the attorney showing up to court--actually, if Paul sends him copy of the small claims complain, all filled in, I really don't see the attorney having the balls to allow it to be filed and will come up with the $$ somehow--period. But if it is filed, and the attorney fails to appear, then Paul gets a default and gets the face value of the amount of money he alleges--period. He may have to "prove up" the default, depending on the judge, but there is nothing unenforceable about a contract to be a friend and companion--Paul gives up his time and the attorney promised to pay--quid per quo -- consideration as required by law to be enforceable and thus is enforceable. Illegal contracts are no enforceable in most situations, but if no one is there to testify as to the illegal part, if that be the case, then it doesn't come up--BUT AGAIN--it won't go that far.

 

Oral contracts are as enforceable as written if they can be proven. One persons testimony is enough, especially if uncontroverted. If there are two witness to an act, the judge chooses the witness he believes more credible, although Paul, being the plaintiff, has the burden of proof--he must prove by more evidence than the client--even a slight amount more is enough. As Paul has clarified below, however, there are evidently emails, so even better.

 

Bottom line, much of this is a game of poker. But Paul has very little to lose and the attorney has his entire livelihood--do you really think he will mess around with it? I don't.

 

oh yeah (here's the edited part) I forgot--I'm quite sure it is a violation of any Federal Attorney's job ethics to violate any "moral" statute--i.e., a crime of moral turpitude, as the state bar calls it, is a viloation of the attorney's state bar ethics requirements and ALSO a violation of the jobs ethics responsibilities of any government attorney job I'm aware of--his boss won't need much to take him down--this guy may be an asshole and jerk, but I doubt that he is stupid--he will want to get this behind him ASAP!! Trust me on that.

[eastbayguy]

Flower,

 

>First, it would never get to court--the client absolutely

>could not let it be filed let alone go to court. You have to

>understand that at best Paul is looking at a misdemeanor with

>a slap on the wrist even if the client could prove Paul guilty

>of prostitution. The client on the other hand is an attorney

>and therefore can be suspended from practicing law for (1)

>soliciting sex for pay or (2) disbarred for committing perjury

>(if he testifies and lies).

 

One assumption everyone is making is that the client is an attorney admitted to the bar in California. Didn't the escort say the guy worked for some government agency? The federal government, in particular, used to employ a lot of people as "lawyers" who have the knowledge, use their legal skills acquired in law school and so on but who were never admitted to the bar. They do a lot of mostly boring stuff, get paid decently and have jobs for life. Oil companies also use a lot of people like this doing oil lease stuff. I know someone who has one of these jobs.

 

I think your strategy is brilliant, unless, the guy is a law school graduate who landed a job not requiring admission to the bar. Then, he's pretty much out of reach of the Bar Association. Isn't he?

 

--EBG

[Flower]

>I think your strategy is brilliant, unless, the guy is a law

>school graduate who landed a job not requiring admission to

>the bar. Then, he's pretty much out of reach of the Bar

>Association. Isn't he?

>

>--EBG

>

Thank you and yes, you're correct as to him havng to be an attorney for the state bar to be involved. Paul said the guy was a "legal professional" and had just "finished a big case and wanted to let off steam."

 

We should never make assumptions, true, but normally it is the trial attorney that needs to let off steam after a big case. It could be a paralegal however, so again, you're correct, although Paul never corrected several statements in several posts assuming the client was an attorney, and I'm not sure if Paul's reading this anymore.

[mattgunther]

Sorry, I forgot you saved the emails-- I guess I'm not that bright either . If you can prove he sent them then you might have a good chance in court. Then you'll find out if he really has the money.

[Guest zipperzone]

Paul:

 

You can sue him in small claims court. You can out him to his employer. You can possibly even ruin his career and life. If that's your desire - so be it.

 

Personally, I think you should just shut up about it, quit your sniveling and move on.

 

Show us all that you have some Christian charity in you, The guy is obviously stressed out to the limit. Will you sleep any better knowing you have upped his stress level a few hundred percent?

 

And don't forget - you might just be in a similar position some day. You probably won't admit to that, but trust me, it can happen to the best of us. Wouldn't you want someone to show some compassion to you? Remeber - what goes around, comes around.

 

Your life will still go on without those few hundred dollars in your jeans (which I'm sure you weren't going to declare to the tax man), and you've learned a valuable lesson - DON'T EXTEND CREDIT!

[Flower]

>Paul:

**** have some Christian charity in you, ***** DON'T

>EXTEND CREDIT!

 

You just don't get it do you--the dude would have undoubtedly written a bad check under the circumstances given--if the client was in financial trouble then why involve Paul--he just should have gone to the free whack sites on the Internet--but he took 4 hours of Paul's time including sex--all knowing he couldn't or wouldn't pay.

What he did was INTENTIONAL--involving Paul and not being able to pay was NOT "just falling on hard times." x(

 

And what's this "CHRISTIAN CHARITY" bullshit. :o

 

Does Paul still have to extend it if he doesn't happen to be christian? Or what if the client isn't christian--still apply? If they were both (or just one) Jewish, would it still be "christian charity" or then become "Jewish or judo-christian" charity? Or Muslin?

 

It seems to me we saw more christian charity than we needed in the last election when the so-called christians stormed the polls in 11 states to make sure that same sex marriages wouldn't threaten their christian and family values.

[Guest zipperzone]

>What he did was INTENTIONAL--involving Paul and not being able

>to pay was NOT "just falling on hard times." x(

 

That's your take on it - it's not mine.

 

 

>And what's this "CHRISTIAN CHARITY" bullshit. :o

>

>Does Paul still have to extend it if he doesn't happen to be

>christian? Or what if the client isn't christian--still apply?

> If they were both (or just one) Jewish, would it still be

>"christian charity" or then become "Jewish or judo-christian"

>charity? Or Muslin?

 

It's just an expression - as you well know - so don't try to get smart with Jewish, Muslim bull shit.

 

As a lawyer it's not surprising you take the side you do. After all it's one more chance for you guys to get another kick at the cat and make a few bucks!

 

>It seems to me we saw more christian charity than we needed in

>the last election when the so-called christians stormed the

>polls in 11 states to make sure that same sex marriages

>wouldn't threaten their christian and family values.

 

And don't give us crap like the above paragraph which has zero to do with what I'm trying to say.

 

And I repeat - there well may come a day when the oh-so-tread-upon Paul, may find himdelf in similar circumstances. Hope he remembers this incident if he does.

[Guest paulbenjaminsf]

zipperzone...this is for you:

 

I don't think you've really read my post, or, if you have, you certainly haven't a grasp on either 1) the question I'm asking, or 2) my clearly expressed intent in this situation.

 

On one hand, you've jumped to a lot of conclusions about me, obviously, assuming (among other things) that I am not sympathetic to people in difficult situations; that I've never experienced financial problems myself; that I have some malevolent desire to ruin his career and his life over this incident; that I don't pay taxes on the income I earn; that I'm "sniveling" about this situation and that I am refusing to "move on" from this situation. I would like to state for the record that all of these assumptions are way off base.

 

On the other hand, however, you are willing to assume the best possible scenario in terms of the guy in question: you are willing to grant him the benefit of the doubt that he is genuinely in financial trouble and not simply refusing to pay me (or simply not prioritizing payment as promised). Why do you want to automatically believe the very best about my opponent in this matter but are so quick to pass judgement on me?

 

First of all, I have many times experienced financial crisis. I left home at 17, put MYSELF through college (without a cent from my parents to help me) and graduated with a B.A., moved to San Francisco after graduating, lost my temporary housing situation unexpectedly and was homeless (essentially) and jobless at the same time...3 months later I had a new job and an apartment, and have totally supported myself all along the way.

 

Over the past ten years or so, since leaving my childhood home, I have struggled many many times. Even now, money is tight sometimes, living in San Francisco especially so, but I have always met my obligations financially though it hasn't always been a piece of cake. From my experience with financial crisis, I know that finances are all a matter of priority. Shelter and basic necessities such as food are first, but then after those are taken care of, it's a matter of priority. If something is important to you, you'll find a way to come up with the money.

 

I understand stress, perhaps better than most people do. Financial stress is particularly difficult to bear. I know that from personal experience. But I also know that as an attorney, working for the federal government, the guy in question makes at LEAST an adequate salary; they're not paying him minimum wage, in other words.

 

By his own account, in a conversation we'd had about his job a couple of months ago, he said that he COULD obviously make more money working his way up in a major law firm, that the salary they pay him working for the government is equal to what someone might make in a major American law firm a year or two out of law school. I have a hard time believing that he is truly struggling and penniless when we're talking about a salary that is perhaps four or five TIMES what I make in a year.

 

Also, I have a hard time believing that one day, a guy wakes up and finds his bank has "screwed up" his account to the tune of $7000, leaving him unable to pay his own mortgage, rent (?!), and car payment (which, if you'll recall, he had all ready claimed to have paid, the reason he had provided for not being able to access funds via his ATM card.) Yes, there are perhaps extreme situations where this could be remotely possible, but if that's the case, he has not provided much of an explanation that would support this claim. My experience is that if someone is in financial trouble, it doesn't all happen at once, and that there are plenty of warning signs of trouble ahead. If that's the case, then what business did he have in making an expensive escort appointment at that time? And what would the excuse be for promising, over and over again, to indeed pay me as promised, if he wasn't actually able to follow through with it?

 

It seems more than convenient that he couldn't access any funds with his ATM card, then avoided me the following day, and again the day after that, but didn't find out until Friday (the fourth day) that his account was screwed up? His actions suggest that he was well aware of his financial troubles at very least by the day we met as scheduled, and perhaps much earlier.

 

Yes, it could be a gambling problem or a drug problem. But that is hardly an excuse! What creditor would benevolently forgive debt upon discovering that the person owing the money had an expensive addiction? I can just hear the collections agent, "Oh...heroin, did you say? Well then, by all means, don't worry about the $5000 you owe American Express." This is ludicrous.

 

I feel sorry for him, if indeed the cause of his trouble is drugs (although even drugs aren't expensive enough to cause a $7000 shortfall...overnight!) or gambling, but we did have an agreement, and I don't think I am out of line for expecting him to follow through on it. He is an adult after all, and as adults, we are legally entitled to enter into contractual obligations; however, we are also legally obligated to pay them as agreed.

 

I feel like he took advantage of my trust and kindness. He knew from the outset that I was counting on that money for my rent, and (I thought sincerely) promised to pay me the next day. When I agreed to those terms, he then proceeded to spend most of the evening with me, and availed himself fully of the enjoyment of my company and services.

 

Additionally, just for your information, your conviction that I do not intend to report my income to the tax man is also completely false. Many escorts are responsible citizens and pay their taxes faithfully, and I am one of those. I know a number of other escorts who do the same, because that is likely to be the only route by which the government would actually prosecute an escort, at least in California.

 

(There is one case going on now about a high-priced hooker from Oakland who reported $23,000 in income over 3 years, all the while owning and driving luxury cars --one was a Mercedes, living in an expensive furnished condominium, paying for her own Stanford law education, and even purchasing over $36,000 in travelers checks, among other things...clearly she is a very extreme example of this, but the FBI had been onto her for a while and now the feds are after her...even though I live very modestly, and would probably not even show up on the feds' radar, I still want to avoid ever having to worry about that. So I pay my taxes.)

 

Beyond all of this, you seem to completely misunderstand the whole point of this post in the first place: The reason I came here with this question is because I felt frustrated and powerless in the situation, and I wanted input from other experienced individuals as to how I could effectively handle this situation.

 

Never have I been "sniveling" or in any way whining about the situation...I merely brought it up for discussion because I was hoping for some reasonable options that perhaps I hadn't thought of. I have never portrayed myself as pityable and I think it's unfair to sarcastically refer to me as "oh-so-tread-upon." This is not the image of myself that I have presented...this is a fabrication of your very own.

 

The fact is, I have been screwed out of money owed me, under different circumstances, several times since I started escorting. In the past, I simply blew it off...

 

In retrospect, I think I was TOO nice in those other situations. I have realized that I have a tendency to be TOO forgiving sometimes and that only works toward my detriment. Also, it is not particularly helpful to the people I was trying to be easy on, because it just showed them they can screw over an escort and get away with it. Then why would I be surprised if they did it again, to one of my peers?

 

In one case, a guy who had me drive an hour away for an overnight with him, ditched me the next morning without paying me a cent (while we were supposedly "on our way to the bank" so he could pay me)...I was pissed, but I blew it off and moved on.

 

A week and a half later, he pulled EXACTLY the same scam on one of my best friends. I hadn't told my best friend about it or warned him because I had chosen to take the "high road" and write it off to a guy with an addiction and money trouble, so I didn't want to make a big deal over it.

 

Clearly, I was sorry I hadn't at least made some serious attempt to both A.) warn other people about this person and B.)recover the money he owed me. If I had done both of these things I might have saved my friend (and, I've since discovered, two dozen other escorts in the general area as well) a lot of grief and trouble.

 

So, contrary to your suggestion, there is no inherent "good" in blowing it off when somebody defrauds you. Obviously, if my efforts are unsuccessful in terms of recovering my own lost revenue, I will move on and life will continue. I have no doubt about that. But even if I am not successful in getting my own money, I may make the guy think twice before screwing over somebody else. So I may never know if I did any good, but I can at least feel good about myself because I made the effort.

 

So perhaps now that I've spelled it all out for you -- even more than I all ready had -- you can understand my concerns and my intention better. I'm not feeling sorry for myself here. I don't ask your (or anyone else's) pity. I am just in what I think is a difficult and frustrating situation and I am trying to do whatever I can to be both responsible to myself, to the guy in question, and to other escorts who might come after me.

 

For clarification: I have never had any designs on outing him to his employer or ruining his life or career. The only reason I brought up knowing where he works and what he does is because he himself had offered this as assurance to me that he was good for the money, because I knew where he worked and I could "cause a lot of problems" for him if I went in there and told them about it.

 

This was never my idea, but his; my realization was that, when it came right down to it, that this was not much of a guarantee, because practically, I would never feel good about doing that. Besides, it would make me look just as bad, walking into their offices in a federal court building and announcing, "hey, I'm David's prostitute, could you please have him pay me?" I mean, come on, I have more class than that.

 

Hopefully that is clear to you by now.

[+ Lucky]

Paul, it is too bad that you feel it necessary to explain yourself, but you did a great job of it. You sound like the kind of guy who will be able to handle himself well. As for mattgunther, I hope yo can just ignore his crap and keep right on posting here. It's a no zipper zone!

[Guest zipperzone]

>Hopefully that is clear to you by now.

 

Well your lengthy post has cleared up a number of things which stupid me had either overlooked or was too obtuse to understand the first time around.

 

It's wonderful to hear that your primary motivation in collecting this debt is to assist those prostitutes that may be scammed in the future by this man you refer to as David. How very noble of you.

 

And as you are so diligent in reporting all your income to the tax man, should you be unable to collect the $400, you can always write it off as a bad debt.

 

And although you think you have been financially challenged in the past, I doubt you really know of the true desperation that can come when your world is collapsing around you and every time you pick up the telephone there is someone looking to be paid. A very good friend of mine found himself in that position a few years ago and couldn't take the pressure and ended it all by shooting himself in the mouth.

 

You may not intend to add to the pressure "David" is probably feeling, but keep in mind that everyone has a breaking point. He undoubtedly was in trouble before his last meeting with you. But in all probability he didn't know the whole thing was about to blow up in his face at that precise moment.

 

All your speculation about his job, his income and his ability to repay you is just that - speculation. You don't really know his true circumstances. But I guess as long as you can continue to present yourself as a crusader for potential down trodden hookers who might be swept up in his web of deceit, you will be able to justify your position. Mother Terasa would be so proud of you.

 

Good luck Paul - I hope you get everything you deserve. And that is my final comment on the matter

[Flower]

>And as you are so diligent in reporting all your income to the

>tax man, should you be unable to collect the $400, you can

>always write it off as a bad debt.

>

>And although you think you have been financially challenged in

>the past, I doubt you really know of the true desperation that

>can come when your world is collapsing around you and every

>time you pick up the telephone there is someone looking to be

>paid.

 

>A very good friend of mine found himself in that

>position a few years ago

 

You mean he stole from an escort also???

 

 

I'd be interested in whether you always "write off" bad debts for services? Actually that's a rhetorical question since I can tell you NEVER had. If you had tried you'd realize that you can not do so unless you report income and expences on an ACCRUAL BASIS (which is very rare and certainly not done' by individuals) and had already paid taxes on the expected income--then the bad debt can be written off, but otherwise can not be "written off."

 

I'd be interested in hearing about all of the $400 losses or thefts YOU have written off with your christian charity--dare ya to give some examples

 

It does demonstrate that you know little of what you talk about.

 

I think you're probably this David guy in disguise or at least identify with his ilk.