I don't want to destroy this friendship.

[Guest jarrodbui]

I am an Asian American who seems to have everything: good job, high education and good looks. However, my family never knows that I am miserable for my sexual identity crisis. I've made love to women but feel very attracted to men. I've been having a crush on this close friend of mine for a couple years, who is such a good looking attorney in Denver. I've been standing beside him through his ups and downs in life, listen to his stories about sexlife with his sexy wife (how she loved to swallow his cum, and feeling jealous about it!), share his sufferings when they went through a bitter divorce...I can never tell him about my secret love, as my parents are also his parents' best friends. It would be a shock and disaster to the 2 families as we still think the Asian way. I've run away from him by working overseas two years ago. But he still keeps in touch with me through e-mails, phone calls...Thought that I've forgotten him. It's not that easy. I've just come back home recently and realized that how much I want him now, as his wife is no longer with him. He invited me to come to his house and insisted me to stay the night. I did once and could not sleep the whole night thru, as I could not refrain myself from entering his room and kiss all over his beautiful body. I feel that I have to end this "friendship", otherwise my family will disown me if they know that I'm gay. I have relationship with some girls so as to make my family happy.

 

My friend loves nudie bar and lap dance with topless girls. Whenever we travel together, the first thing he does is to visit the nudie bars there. When the girl does the lap dance on me, I get erection not because of her, but by looking at him with another girl!!!

 

He did have some gay bashing comments when seeing two guys holding hands on the street. He did ask me a couple times if I am gay. I just said "Yeah,with you". And he said "I hope you're not".

 

He himself is not into sports, the first thing he does when buying newspaper is throwing away sports pages. He has some pink shirts and usually wear other brand name stuffs like Burberry, YSL, Gucci...I don't understand if he hates gay, why he wants to hang around with me and insists me to stay at his house every weekend?

 

Thanks for reading such a long post and for your kind advise.

[kjun]

Hope springs eternal but it is probable that all this relationship is accomplishing is causing you to suffer. I have been in love with a straight man before and it was not fun.

 

the Cajun

[guyinsf]

My brief advice:

 

Find another guy with whom to explore your sexual desires. Once you do so you will not be so obsessed with this friend.

[Guest jarrodbui]

>My brief advice:

>

>Find another guy with whom to explore your sexual desires.

>Once you do so you will not be so obsessed with this friend.

>

 

You and the Cajun are right. Falling in love with a straight guy is suffering. Frankly I did hire some escorts to release my tension. But if only you can make love to the one you love. It's the greatest happiness in life. I wish that I could kiss and make love to my cute friend just once for all, then I would be extremely gratified!!!

[woodlawn]

>I wish that I could kiss

>and make love to my cute friend just once for all, then I

>would be extremely gratified!!!

 

I wouldn't bet on that if I were you. People who suffer from unrequited love often think that if they could just have one night with the object of their desire everything would change, but such feelings usually are no more than a fantasy.

 

Frankly I have a lot of respect for what you call the "Asian way." In this country members of the Baby Boom and younger generations seem to think that life is all about doing whatever they feel like doing and if that happens to hurt or upset their parents it's just too bad. They seem to think their parents owe it to them to give them whatever they want and support whatever they do, and that parents should throw away their own deepest feelings and beliefs if they conflict with what their children want. Where these ideas came from I really don't know -- they are not part of any religion or philosophy I ever heard of, unless "selfishness" is a philosophy. In other cultures it is believed that children have a duty to their parents and should consider that duty in making their most important choices. Coming from such a tradition is something to be proud of, not ashamed of.

 

I wouldn't suggest that you go to the extreme of living a lie in order to make your parents happy, but there is nothing wrong with living in such a way as to avoid doing something that would shock or upset them. They are not going to be in your life forever, after all. Just as common as unrequited love is the experience of feeling, after one's parents are gone, that one would like to make amends for things said or done while they were alive or seek their advice or consolation one more time. If I were you I'd make the best of my relationship with my parents while they are still around.

[+ Lucky]

"but there is nothing wrong with living in such a way as to avoid doing something that would shock or upset them"

 

This is a noble platitude except for the fact that it requires someone who is gay to deny his true self. If you really love someone, let him or her know who you are. Otherwise, it is just deceit. How can you say you love your children when they are so scared of protecting your feelings that they deny their sexual orientation. Why live a lie?

[woodlawn]

>"but there is nothing wrong with living in such a way as to

>avoid doing something that would shock or upset them"

 

>This is a noble platitude except for the fact that it requires

>someone who is gay to deny his true self. If you really love

>someone, let him or her know who you are. Otherwise, it is

>just deceit. How can you say you love your children when they

>are so scared of protecting your feelings that they deny their

>sexual orientation. Why live a lie?

 

 

How can you say you love your parents when you propose to do something you know will hurt them -- and for what? To proclaim your love for a straight guy who is never going to return your feelings? If you are in a committed relationship with a person of the same sex and you want to be open about that relationship with everyone in your life, including family, that's one thing. But that is not the situation being discussed.

 

As for denying your sexual orientation, that would indeed be a big sacrifice to make for your parents. But I suppose you could ask yourself whether your parents ever made any sacrifices for you. Worked at jobs they hated so that they could support you, for example. Or resisted the impulse to end their marriage because they were afraid of the impact on you. Those are also rather big sacrifices.

[Guest zipperzone]

>But I suppose you

>could ask yourself whether your parents ever made any

>sacrifices for you. Worked at jobs they hated so that they

>could support you, for example.

 

But let us not overlook that they also worked at a job they hated because they had to support THEMSELVES. So the "sacrifice" was not entirely for the children.

 

>Or resisted the impulse to

>end their marriage because they were afraid of the impact on

>you. Those are also rather big sacrifices.

 

Or perhaps they resisted the impulse to end their marriage because they couldn't afford a decent lifestyle for themselves if the wage earner had to pay alimony and support two households.

 

It's not as black and white as you present it.

[Guest Don Cast]

> He did ask me a couple times if I

>am gay. I just said "Yeah,with you". And he said "I hope

>you're not".

>

>I don't understand if he hates gay, why

>he wants to hang around with me and insists me to stay at his

>house every weekend?

>

While I agree generally with your other advisers -- this is a VERY perilous friendship! -- your friend may well be (unconsciously?) playing a game with himself and with you. If you're reporting correctly, there seems to be at least a chance that at SOME sexual level he's interested in you. But that's not really good news for your hopes here, because it's also pretty clear that he isn't able to accept it.

 

I've had a brief but similar relationship which actually went much further than yours has: the guy admitted to "curiosity" and -- between a lot of talk about his sexual adventures with women -- he got into discussing "what goes on in a jackoff club." Of course he assured me, HE wasn't QUEER, the idea of kissing another guy was disgusting! But he did have this interest in jacking off with another guy... I think the fact that, like him, I was married made it easier for him to talk to me in this way.

 

While I certainly wasn't in love with him, I did find it a mild turn-on to initiate events and we had a couple of afternoon jackoffs. On one of them I decided his cock was just too cute to leave unsucked, so I dived down and must have had his knob under suction for a minute before he popped, wildly! Surprising both of us.

 

But after each encounter he made sure to send me pictures that "really" turned him on (all women, of course!) and to make it "clear" that HE didn't want to suck ME and didn't even "really" enjoy the mutual touching. Oddly he didn't seem to be able to explain this to his cock -- of which I've seen few stiffer, throughout!

 

So I was the one to back off, and perhaps you'd be wise to do the same. My danger-lights go on whenever I'm dealing with "conflicted" people who can't admit to their own drives and may well have a need to do something unpleasant to "prove" themselves. What is at risk of destruction here could be more than just a friendship!

[+ Lucky]

And how can your parents truly love you if they have no idea who you reallya re? If your most important activities in life, such as loves and relationships, have to be denied to "protect their feelings?"

 

I agree that the person posting this thread does not need to tell his parents that he lusts after his friend...but that he lusts for men, yes, I think he should tell them!

 

He should further ask himself why he defines their relationship as a friendship if he cannot be open with guy about his feelings.

[Guest zipperzone]

I get a haunting feeling that your friend may not be as straight as you assume he is. Perhaps he has gay tendancies that he is trying to keep submerged - or perhaps he is just another example of that new breed - the Metrosexual.

[woodlawn]

>>But I suppose you

>>could ask yourself whether your parents ever made any

>>sacrifices for you. Worked at jobs they hated so that they

>>could support you, for example.

 

>But let us not overlook that they also worked at a job they

>hated because they had to support THEMSELVES. So the

>"sacrifice" was not entirely for the children.

 

What makes you say that? I know any number of middle-aged professional men with children who would gladly walk away from a lucrative job and take a hit in terms of living standards to do something they enjoy more, but they don't because they have to put kids through school. Hell, I know a man who turned down a federal judgeship when he was asked how he was going to put three kids through college on a judge's salary.

 

 

>>Or resisted the impulse to

>>end their marriage because they were afraid of the impact on

>>you. Those are also rather big sacrifices.

 

>Or perhaps they resisted the impulse to end their marriage

>because they couldn't afford a decent lifestyle for themselves

>if the wage earner had to pay alimony and support two

>households.

 

>It's not as black and white as you present it.

 

According to whom? I know couples who fit the description I gave perfectly. If not for their sense of obligation to their kids, they would now be living entirely different lives.

[woodlawn]

>And how can your parents truly love you if they have no idea

>who you reallya re?

 

You might ask that question of some of the escorts here who conceal what they do from their parents. In previous threads on that subject, more than one has answered that love doesn't require that your loved ones know everything about you.

[+ Lucky]

Only your core identity.

 

BTW, woodlawn, let me be the first to congratulate you on reaching the 1500 mark. You know I have read at least 1100 of them!

[FrancoDiSantisxxx]

Logic And Reason

 

>>And how can your parents truly love you if they have no

>idea

>>who you reallya re?

>

>You might ask that question of some of the escorts here who

>conceal what they do from their parents. In previous threads

>on that subject, more than one has answered that love doesn't

>require that your loved ones know everything about you.

>

 

 

There is an excellent scene in a movie with some gay characters where one, slightly older (28 to 24) than another, is trying to explain to the second man what it means to come out. The second man (the 24 year old) asks "who cares whom I have sex or who cares whom I love." I am sure most of you can imagine most of the dialogue so I will jump to my point: the younger man asks how his parents took it. The 28 year old states flatly: "my father died never knowing me." The 24 year old begins to protest and the 28 year old simply looks him straight in the eyes and repeats himself: "He died never knowing me."

 

Partly because of how society treats homosexuality but also partly because it is a large part of our identities, and not merely sexual identity at that, but our identities, who we are, are not the same thing as what any one of us does for spending money.

 

On the other hand, there is something to be said for cultural sensitivities. Parents can love there children without truly knowing them or, at minimum, believe that they do. But this is the crux of the problem: they do not. They love their idea of whom they believe their children to be, not the reality of who their children truly are. In this case, I think all parties would be best served by some honesty but complete honesty (i.e., telling the parents he is sexually attracted to the son of their best friends) is not necessary.

[woodlawn]

>Only your core identity.

>

 

I think it is a mistake, and one frequently made on this board, to assume that homoerotic feelings play exactly the same role in the life of every man who has them. For some men, such feelings probably ARE at the core of their identity. For others, they are of less importance than family, career or other considerations. For some men, being gay is what their life is all about. For others, it's just one of a long list of characteristics that define them. This website is intended to make it easier for gay men to arrange sexual encounters with other gay men. Perhaps for that reason the men most likely to participate here are those for whom their sexuality is more important than most other things.

 

 

>BTW, woodlawn, let me be the first to congratulate you on

>reaching the 1500 mark. You know I have read at least 1100 of

>them!

 

And let me congratulate you on creating several posts in succession in this thread that do not contain any juvenile insults. It's never too late to grow up.

[VaHawk]

Delicious bait. Congratulations, your trolling expedition appears to be a HUGE success!

 

But then again, there was no doubt that it would be, considering that you used every "gay cliche" known to man.

[Guest Mikel]

Interesting perspective.

[Guest arbee]

It's interesting; I just finished reading a poem by Goethe which opens: Nur wer die Sehnsucht kennt,/Weiss was ich leide! (Only someone who knows yearning,/ Knows what I suffer!)

 

I think many of us have been "head over heels" for a straight guy/friend. I was... I am. It's not going to "happen" for me and it seems likely not for you. I "cope." Periodic fantasies intrude... Trying to be self-analytical, I know that until I *really* get over this thing, it will only be an impediment, an obstacle, to finding someone and developing a meaningful and enduring relationship. There is, I think, this "magical thinking" that Mr. Straight is going to "turn" or be turned and then there he'll be. Could happen, I guess. Might take 20 years. Are you prepared to wait? I know that I'm not. "Yearning" is OK, but when it rules your life, commandeers your thoughts, then it's self destructive. I know that I've used it as a "totem" and it took on a life of its own, inhibiting me from prying my butt out of my chair and looking for someone; it inhibited me, helped me maintain a comfortable (?) though clearly self-negating inertia.

 

If I can comment: I was happy to read Woodlawn's response to you. (I've always been afraid to mention him in my infrequent posts fearing an unintentional provocation.) It seemed to me to be so decent and, for me, on the mark. On the one hand I noted a thread praising escorts for putting their family first, and yet some in this thread are critical of the initial poster for wanting to protect his parents from a painful revelation... I think the word "deceit" was used. My own faith community places great import on truthtelling and I'd like to believe I acquit myself well on that account. BUT it is unimaginable to me to share my orientation with my family. To what end? They don't ask; I haven't told. I don't know what I'd say if they did ask. I believe I would lie. There's no "profit" in shattering elderly people's twilight time and likely nothing to be gained by trying to explain things to them they will never understand; their world and it's paradigms are different and well engrained.

[VaHawk]

Besides further feeding of the troll, you state:

 

"If I can comment: I was happy to read Woodlawn's response to you. (I've always been afraid to mention him in my infrequent posts fearing an unintentional provocation.)

 

BIG BAD WOODLAWN! Of course you were afraid of him, as it seems that you are afraid of YOURSELF and WHO you are.

 

"It seemed to me to be so decent and, for me, on the mark. On the one hand I noted a thread praising escorts for putting their family first, and yet some in this thread are critical of the initial poster for wanting to protect his parents from a painful revelation... I think the word "deceit" was used. My own faith community places great import on truthtelling and I'd like to believe I acquit myself well on that account."

 

But you can't be truthful with yourself and your family and friends???? IMO, you are guilty of the greatest deception of all, and that is your failure to acknowledge who you are. And yet, you place great emphasis on your truthtelling while living a life of total lies and denial?

 

"BUT it is unimaginable to me to share my orientation with my family. To what end? They don't ask; I haven't told. I don't know what I'd say if they did ask. I believe I would lie."

 

How sad. Close the closet door and turn off the light. So you'd rather "pretend" and live a sham existence just because they don't ask and you don't tell. And if they did ask you would continue to deny who you are by lying, even though it is obvious to them that you are lying? Really, really, really pathetic. I really feel sorry for you.

 

"There's no "profit" in shattering elderly people's twilight time and likely nothing to be gained by trying to explain things to them they will never understand; their world and it's paradigms are different and well engrained."

 

I disagree, as there is profit in finding out that your family loves and accepts you for who you are, as a gay man and there is gain in finding out that knowledge. It really is presumptive of you to judge them as "never understanding" isn't it? Sounds like you are the one making presumptions and judgements against them.

[Guest arbee]

Thank you for your post.

 

My gayness is *part* of who I am, not the totality. It does not rule my life as it apparently does yours.

 

What is, of course, interesting is that I feel the need to respond to your angry screed. (I'll figure that one out later...) Does the concept of civility or impulse control ever intersect with your malicious trajectory? (I remember another thread where you went off when I mentioned the Fred Hutchinson Cancer Center in Seattle and, clearly not understanding the intent of that post or its content, you launched a hot diatrible about a fantasized insult to FH the baseball player.)

 

Try... just try counting to 10 before you approach a keyboard; it may help. Couldn't hurt.

 

And now, I'm going to get into my car and drive 75 miles to wake up my family and tell them I gay. Happy?

[+ Lucky]

RE: I don't want to destroy this relationship

 

Well, it is easy for me to say that someone else should come out, since I have already crossed that bridge. But I haven't forgotten how hard it can be. Nonetheless, I am so glad that I did. It is sad that Arbee feels so constricted.

[VaHawk]

>Thank you for your post.

 

You're welcome, although you don't seem to appreciate anyone else's point of view, except your own coat hanger one.

>

>My gayness is *part* of who I am, not the totality. It does

>not rule my life as it apparently does yours.

 

I'm a gay man, and yes it is the DEFINING trait of my existence in all areas including sexual attraction, acceptance in society, legal rights, employment rights and just basic human rights. Do you know how pathetic it sounds when people use the argument that it is *part* of who I am, not the totality? That comes across, as defining to yourself that gay is ONLY about who you have sex with, and if that is your limited definition of what it is to be gay, then you are not gay, so take a DEEP breath since you don't have to worry about announcing to your family that you are gay!!!!!!

>

>What is, of course, interesting is that I feel the need to

>respond to your angry screed. (I'll figure that one out

>later...) Does the concept of civility or impulse control

>ever intersect with your malicious trajectory? (I remember

>another thread where you went off when I mentioned the Fred

>Hutchinson Cancer Center in Seattle and, clearly not

>understanding the intent of that post or its content, you

>launched a hot diatrible about a fantasized insult to FH the

>baseball player.)

 

What is interesting is that you can't respond without resorting to the tired old party line about Hawk's angry screed. How original you are.

 

>Try... just try counting to 10 before you approach a keyboard;

>it may help. Couldn't hurt.

 

Try... just try counting to 10 before you deny that being a closet case is damaging to the gay movement and even more damaging to a gay's family. Couldn't hurt, huh?

>

>And now, I'm going to get into my car and drive 75 miles to

>wake up my family and tell them I gay. Happy?

 

I could care less whether you drive 75 miles or 75,000 miles or whether you tell your family that you are gay or not and my emotional state, is sure as hell, not contingent on your admission of such. I know that such a stance is abrasive to a "center of the universe" attitude.

[Guest jarrodbui]

RE: I don't want to destroy this relationship

 

Thank you for all your responses to my post. This forum is such a good place for me to share my thoughts. It's good to feel that you have someone to speak to.

 

Put aside the sexual desire, my friend is the best friend I've ever had. He helped me a lot by his broad knowledge about laws and tax-related issues, his connection with people to get me a job. He gave me the best reference letter and remember to do everything for me in a flash...He treated me like a family member, introducing me to his ex-wife (when they are still together), to his parents, all brothers and sisters, brothers-in-law, sisters-in-law, nephew, niece, saying that "now you know all my family members". We've known each others through another friend and discovered later on two families has some connection from the elder generation. When I visited his home city, he showed me his elementary school, highschool and university. He also showed me his bedroom at parents' where he has grown up to be a man. He's sharing everything with me, which touches me deeply.

 

Losing a good friend who can help you indeed is so regrettable, but I can not kill my lust for him (and jealousy) whenever I get close to him.

Am I too emotional, don't you think?

[Guest zipperzone]

>>It's not as black and white as you present it.

>

>According to whom? I know couples who fit the description I

>gave perfectly. If not for their sense of obligation to their

>kids, they would now be living entirely different lives.

 

I'm sure you do and I'm sure they wood.

 

But you're missing my use of the word "perhaps".

 

I still say it's not as black and white as you present it, regardless of your defensive reply.