The King and I

[bostonman]

Except there it sounds like a pronunciation problem with a foreigner, not an opera problem. I looked it up. This Lun Tha was Peabo Bryson -- an American singer who should know how to pronounce English words but he has that "pop" kind of voice. It's absolutely atrocious.

 

American classically trained singers should sing English like English. If they don't, there is something seriously wrong with their training.

 

The worst example from a cast recording is Jose Carreras in the West Side Story recording under Bernstein. My god, it was simply awful.

 

And of course what made Carrerras even worse on that recording was that he couldn't get the musical style either - the syncopations on "Something's Coming" completely eluded him. That whole recording shouldn't have been made.

 

What's interesting about the conservatory student I mentioned is that I had just seen him do a wonderful, natural-sounding job in a musical with a pop score - no affectations at all. But the more lyrical style of the My Fair Lady song seemed to bring out a different, needlessly mannered vocal production altogether. So I tend to agree with you - if he worked on that song in school with his voice teacher (and I think he said he did), the problem does lie in the way he's being taught. When he sang more contemporary things he most likely worked on on his own, they didn't have that affectation at all.

 

I think my issue with the Chatelet Into The Woods is more related to musical style (just like I just mentioned with Carerras) than to pronunciation by itself - it's the vocal approach in general. When a theatre composer like Sondheim is writing specifically for big lyrical effect (let's say "One More Kiss" from Follies - written literally to be sung by an operetta singer and her former self), a "classical" affect is obviously welcome and intended. But in an often word-dense score like Into The Woods, the music often needs a much more natural, conversational style, which the singers in this cast were just unable to do. So it largely came across as way oversung (in the same manner as Carrerras on the West Side recording) and it sounded ludicrous.

 

But I guess your example of Bryson is very much the same - he's trying to croon the song like a jazz artist instead of opening up the way Rodgers would have intended for this kind of more "legit" theatre role. It's most likely related to a misunderstanding of the style expected from the music (or a deliberate attempt to go against that style). It's that "crossover" thing that very few people can really do well. If Bryson were recording this as a stand-alone "cover" (say, like the Marcels' iconic "Blue Moon," to use another example of a Rodgers song re-interpreted - this time to great effect) it might be valid in that context. But as part of a recording of the score of The King And I, yeah, not right at all. But then again, that was done for that awful cut-to-shreds cartoon version of the show, yes? THERE's the problem, lol - there was NOTHING right about any of that endeavor.

[bostonman]

And Bernstein kept torturing him for it. Truly painful to watch. Bernstein came off as a sadist.

 

I know I've heard the official story on this before, though I don't quite remember - aside from the fact that Bernstein had his own delusions that West Side Story was really to be "an opera" (and his disappointment that it didn't quite turn out as one - and that by the time the show opened, his very purple idea of lyrics were almost entirely gone from the show), if I recall correctly, Carrerras wasn't his idea. I always felt that American tenor Jerry Hadley would have been a perfect choice (and I seem to think Bernstein asked for him?) but Deutsche Grammophon wanted more of a name. (MrMiniver - I daresay you might know the real story if this isn't quite right?)

 

Aside from all else torturous about that recording - Bernstein's slow tempi on so much of the music are the worst.

[foxy]

Curious to see if my memory of the video of the recording of West Side Story was accurate I found it on YouTube. Perhaps Carreras wasn't Bernstein's choice. Surprising he didn't have final say with his clout. Jerry Hadley would have been very good. I think sadly he committed suicide. Anyway I could only watch part of the video of the recording as it is still painful to watch poor Carreras.

[MrMiniver]

And Bernstein kept torturing him for it. Truly painful to watch. Bernstein came off as a sadist.

 

Well, Bernstein was a complete jackass in my personal experience.

[MrMiniver]

And of course what made Carrerras even worse on that recording was that he couldn't get the musical style either - the syncopations on "Something's Coming" completely eluded him. That whole recording shouldn't have been made.

 

What's interesting about the conservatory student I mentioned is that I had just seen him do a wonderful, natural-sounding job in a musical with a pop score - no affectations at all. But the more lyrical style of the My Fair Lady song seemed to bring out a different, needlessly mannered vocal production altogether. So I tend to agree with you - if he worked on that song in school with his voice teacher (and I think he said he did), the problem does lie in the way he's being taught. When he sang more contemporary things he most likely worked on on his own, they didn't have that affectation at all.

 

I think my issue with the Chatelet Into The Woods is more related to musical style (just like I just mentioned with Carerras) than to pronunciation by itself - it's the vocal approach in general. When a theatre composer like Sondheim is writing specifically for big lyrical effect (let's say "One More Kiss" from Follies - written literally to be sung by an operetta singer and her former self), a "classical" affect is obviously welcome and intended. But in an often word-dense score like Into The Woods, the music often needs a much more natural, conversational style, which the singers in this cast were just unable to do. So it largely came across as way oversung (in the same manner as Carrerras on the West Side recording) and it sounded ludicrous.

 

But I guess your example of Bryson is very much the same - he's trying to croon the song like a jazz artist instead of opening up the way Rodgers would have intended for this kind of more "legit" theatre role. It's most likely related to a misunderstanding of the style expected from the music (or a deliberate attempt to go against that style). It's that "crossover" thing that very few people can really do well. If Bryson were recording this as a stand-alone "cover" (say, like the Marcels' iconic "Blue Moon," to use another example of a Rodgers song re-interpreted - this time to great effect) it might be valid in that context. But as part of a recording of the score of The King And I, yeah, not right at all. But then again, that was done for that awful cut-to-shreds cartoon version of the show, yes? THERE's the problem, lol - there was NOTHING right about any of that endeavor.

 

My recollections are vague .. was it Julie Andrews as Anna (a role she would have been born to sing on stage but never did) and Ben Kingsley? I think so but not sure and too lazy to look it up. It's been years since I listened to it. It might have been Lea Salonga as Tuptim. I recall Andrews and Kingsley were quite good.

 

I seriously doubt that Peabo Bryson could sing any other way no matter what. It was just miscasting.

[MrMiniver]

I know I've heard the official story on this before, though I don't quite remember - aside from the fact that Bernstein had his own delusions that West Side Story was really to be "an opera" (and his disappointment that it didn't quite turn out as one - and that by the time the show opened, his very purple idea of lyrics were almost entirely gone from the show), if I recall correctly, Carrerras wasn't his idea. I always felt that American tenor Jerry Hadley would have been a perfect choice (and I seem to think Bernstein asked for him?) but Deutsche Grammophon wanted more of a name. (MrMiniver - I daresay you might know the real story if this isn't quite right?)

 

Aside from all else torturous about that recording - Bernstein's slow tempi on so much of the music are the worst.

 

You're absolutely right. Carreras was forced down his throat by DG and he took it out on Jose. But I also blame the singer. You don't have to take a role for which you are miscast. I seem to recall he later did the South Pacific recording where even though he's still the wrong ethnicity at least the accent was a little more plausible. Poor sad Jerry Hadley would have been a far better casting choice. Talk about a story.

 

I very much respect Bernstein as a musician but he was one of the worst and most despicable human beings it's ever been my misfortune to meet.

 

I heard that Paris Into the Woods as well and it bore as much relation to Sondheim as does Victor Herbert. There was also a recent Follies I think from Paris (could be wrong on that) and it was better although somewhat bizarre in execution.

[MrMiniver]

Curious to see if my memory of the video of the recording of West Side Story was accurate I found it on YouTube. Perhaps Carreras wasn't Bernstein's choice. Surprising he didn't have final say with his clout. Jerry Hadley would have been very good. I think sadly he committed suicide. Anyway I could only watch part of the video of the recording as it is still painful to watch poor Carreras.

 

Jerry's is a cautionary tale of what happens when you're a big star and then new people come along and the companies that were hiring you drop you completely without almost a word. you have to learn to handle that. He couldn't. The whole thing was so sad and depressing and you could see it coming but no one did anything .... it made me angry and sad

[bostonman]

My recollections are vague .. was it Julie Andrews as Anna (a role she would have been born to sing on stage but never did) and Ben Kingsley? I think so but not sure and too lazy to look it up. It's been years since I listened to it. It might have been Lea Salonga as Tuptim. I recall Andrews and Kingsley were quite good.

 

I seriously doubt that Peabo Bryson could sing any other way no matter what. It was just miscasting.

 

Ah - you're right. It wasn't the awful animated version, it was a studio recording with those you mentioned and also Marilyn Horne. I don't think I've listened to that recording since I first heard it when it came out.

 

There was a whole slew of "crossover" recordings of musicals for a while there, with opera and musical theatre singers together. I think one of the worst was a Man Of La Mancha with Domingo - not so much because of Domingo, but because of Mandy Patinkin's unbelievably horrid caricature of Sancho.

[foxy]

Jerry Hadley was so wonderful in the concert version of Candide which I think was Bernstein's masterpiece.

[uwsman2]

Going back to the comments about too many revivals and not enough new shows.... The King and I revival is at Lincoln Center Theater, where their mission is a mix of revivals and new productions. They have three theaters and also produce shows in Broadway houses. The occasional blockbuster revival helps to pay for the new stuff, which doesn't always sell enough tickets to cover production costs. LCT is a non-profit house and they see part of their mission as presenting high-quality revivals of classic American shows for today's audiences who were not around to see the original live productions. They present lots of new stuff, including new musicals.

[Frankly Rich]

The King and I is already receiving more attention here than most shows, and it isn't even playing yet. Does this mean it will be a super hit? Or is it just us?

[MrMiniver]

Ah - you're right. It wasn't the awful animated version, it was a studio recording with those you mentioned and also Marilyn Horne. I don't think I've listened to that recording since I first heard it when it came out.

 

There was a whole slew of "crossover" recordings of musicals for a while there, with opera and musical theatre singers together. I think one of the worst was a Man Of La Mancha with Domingo - not so much because of Domingo, but because of Mandy Patinkin's unbelievably horrid caricature of Sancho.

 

It started with all those John McGlinn recordings including his amazing Show Boat. Everyone jumped onto the bandwagon but, unfortunately, they didn't have the same devotion to scholarship that he did. of course, he didn't get done half of what he should because he was so difficult to work with. Alas, he died too young with stuff still in the can that will probably never see the light of day.

 

Oh, gosh, I forgot about that Man of La Mancha. I think there was a Carousel with that atrocious Sarah Brightman as well. I have all of these things in the a cabinet somewhere and, like you, haven't listened to them since they first came out.

[MrMiniver]

Going back to the comments about too many revivals and not enough new shows.... The King and I revival is at Lincoln Center Theater, where their mission is a mix of revivals and new productions. They have three theaters and also produce shows in Broadway houses. The occasional blockbuster revival helps to pay for the new stuff, which doesn't always sell enough tickets to cover production costs. LCT is a non-profit house and they see part of their mission as presenting high-quality revivals of classic American shows for today's audiences who were not around to see the original live productions. They present lots of new stuff, including new musicals.

 

 

I welcome well done revivals. I think one of the missions of the theater should be too revive the great and sometimes neglected works of the past. Do you realize when Lincoln Center put on their acclaimed production of South Pacific a few years ago it was the first time it had been done on Broadway since the original production? That's actually shameful. Give new generations a chance to see these works ....

[bostonman]

It started with all those John McGlinn recordings including his amazing Show Boat. Everyone jumped onto the bandwagon but, unfortunately, they didn't have the same devotion to scholarship that he did. of course, he didn't get done half of what he should because he was so difficult to work with. Alas, he died too young with stuff still in the can that will probably never see the light of day.

 

The one thing I am actually most grateful to McGlinn for (aside from his work in general) is his unearthing of the original show version of "All The Things You Are," with the original multi-sectioned verse, the baritone countermelody to the famous refrain, and the beautiful choral/solo writing in the repeat of the refrain. (Oh, that high soprano solo line toward the end, reaching up to a held high D...pure heaven.) A stunning arrangement, and his recording of it is wonderful.

 

Recording -

 

Televised concert performance (Boston Pops, 1990) -

[MrMiniver]

The one thing I am actually most grateful to McGlinn for (aside from his work in general) is his unearthing of the original show version of "All The Things You Are," with the original multi-sectioned verse, the baritone countermelody to the famous refrain, and the beautiful choral/solo writing in the repeat of the refrain. (Oh, that high soprano solo line toward the end, reaching up to a held high D...pure heaven.) A stunning arrangement, and his recording of it is wonderful.

 

Recording -

 

Televised concert performance (Boston Pops, 1990) -

 

You are so right. I saw a concert performance McGlinn did of Jerome Kern's SUNNY in Orchestra Hall in Chicago one summer in around, oh, I'm not sure the date -- it had to be early 1990s. It was glorious but the encore was that restored All The Things You are" with Rebecca Luker, full orchestra and a 100 voice choir. It was one of the most thrilling things I've ever heard live. The audience was cheering and on their feet before the final notes ended .... I get chills just thinking about it right now.