Is the increase in bareback porn changing the way clients view escorts?

[Epigonos]

It has often been said that in discussions of politics and religion the only person the speaker convinces is himself or herself. The exact same can be said about discussion of BB.

[Strafe13]

It has often been said that in discussions of politics and religion the only person the speaker convinces is himself or herself. The exact same can be said about discussion of BB.

 

Sadly, given the responses on this thread, and previous ones, I fear you're right. I just hope that Joey, Steven, Steve, and the other escorts are able to stay safe, and that the market changes alluded to in the first post don't have an adverse effect on their profession or health.

[tom1980]

This is an interesting topic. I think that the prominence of BB porn will lead to more clients wanting escorts to BB in the long run. Clients will see the guys doing it in porn and assume that there are safe ways to BB. After all, if it wasn't safe the industry wouldn't allow it right? No capitalist has ever put profit ahead of worker safety and human welfare! /sarcasm off

 

Even clients who are concerned about the health risks of HIV may assume that following the same procedures porn companies use will keep them safe. As home HIV testing becomes even faster, easier, and more accurate than it already is, more clients will feel reassured by testing themselves regularly or testing an escort at the beginning of an appointment. It seems that fewer and fewer people are aware that those tests cannot detect HIV for a certain period after transmission, and the rate of ignorance will continue growing as the testing technology continues to advance. Other clients will take PrEP (or trust escorts who claim they are taking it) and feel safe engaging in BB sex. For many younger guys, there is also an assumption that HIV isn't very harmful because the symptoms can be treated pretty effectively with modern medical technology (to be clear, I'm not saying I agree with or support this view, I'm simply pointing out that many younger gay men feel that way; as someone else said, people think of it like diabetes).

 

When more and more clients begin believing that they are not at risk of contracting HIV or that HIV does not pose a serious threat to their health, that will inevitably lead to more clients wanting to live out the fantasy they see on their computer screens by having bareback sex with hot escorts. At the same time, more and more escorts will feel the same way as those clients and begin offering BB sex. Unless something in the medical world drastically changes, I think there will always be clients and escorts who are only willing to practice safer sex. However, I think the number of people in that category is going to continue shrinking and that BB porn plays at least some role in that.

[JoeyBryant]

OK everyone, I assure I wasn't trying to string anyone along on this topic. But shortly after posting, life got busy and I've not had much time to visit any forums. But, Ive read all the responses so far. But, I do want to address this:

 

This subject again...

Unfortunately, I know a lot of guys in their 50's are in a "fuck it" mode, they are close to Social Security, almost retired, some savings in the bank, and they've always used condoms, now they just don't care about taking it raw, you only live once, right?

 

Young men also never considered HIV deadly and they don't mind taking a few pills a day, they think it's like diabetes.

 

I always email an escort asking for safe sex, all of them say yes, after that I email the same escort from a different account and ask for BB, 75% of the time the escorts agree to BB with me. Obviously, I cancel.

 

I get the 1st part, and am not surprised. Matter of fact, some years ago I was reading about an article in the Sun City Center, Florida. They were talking about how many seniors had been turning to bareback, and I believe they were seeing new 'infection' rates or whatever.

 

As for the young men thinking it's 'just a few pills a day', that's the fault of BIG PHARMA continual diluting of the hazards of HIV meds. Gay magazines and websites need to also not allow them to feed that garbage in their advertising either. I always tell people, in this day and age...the constant daily pill popping will probably make you feel like you're gonna die quicker than the virus would. Plus, it's taxing to the liver. Add to the fact, people often say you can't tell if a person has HIV. Maybe so, but I KNOOOOOOW when a person is popping pills. Many tend to be underweight, because in the long run it is a poison. Yes, there's people living to be 900 years old thanks to the pills, but who wants to take pills like that for 900 years?

 

As far as your email 'investigation', I just can't say I agree with that. Remember, they can tell you 1 thing professionally, and do another privately. In addition, bareback isn't the only way to contract STDs. I think instead of being a flake and swindling someone, if it's really that important...it'd behoove a person to use condoms for both oral and penetrative sex. Not to come off defensive there, but if you feel comfortable with it that's your choice. But, do you really want guys to add you to a blacklisting site for something that's irrelevant?

[+ Gar1eth]

Maybe it's a good thing I can't hire anymore. I keep noticing that escorts I was always interested in, and whom I'm sure used to advertise as 'always safe' on their Rentboy ads have changed to either 'sometimes safe' or just don't list that box in their profile at all. Doing a random search on some porn sites, I just found that Adam Russo and Shay Michaels have done bareback porn. I know Shay used to advertise as safe. And I'm almost sure Adam did in the past. If they are doing bareback porn now, while I might be wrong, to me it leads to one major conclusion.

 

I just don't know. The risk of HIV was certainly one factor (of many) that kept me a virgin until the age of 41. If I were to start being unsafe now- well I don't know- it just seems that it would make a mockery of all those long years of abstinence.

 

Gman

[marylander1940]

Maybe it's a good thing I can't hire anymore. I keep noticing that escorts I was always interested in, and whom I'm sure used to advertise as 'always safe' on their Rentboy ads have changed to either 'sometimes safe' or just don't list that box in their profile at all....

 

You have a lot of very hot escorts available who only play safe.

[JoeyBryant]

Doing a random search on some porn sites, I just found that Adam Russo

 

I just don't know. The risk of HIV was certainly one factor (of many) that kept me a virgin until the age of 41. If I were to start being unsafe now- well I don't know- it just seems that it would make a mockery of all those long years of abstinence.

 

Gman

 

Now you do have to admit, some of those vids I seen with Adam Russo are real hot. He is fi-i-ine.

 

As for the 2nd part, ya know...don't feel bad. I try to educate people close to me all the time, that some of their fears regarding that are unfounded and over-analyzed. A friend found no sympathy from me, when he told me he'd asked a guy (after sucking him off) if he had the 'virus'. I told my friend that was very rude and immature, and I'm sick of him always talking about HIV and AIDS, yet he's always out sucking and fucking like a *****. Don't talk to me about your worries with HIV, when adam4adam is your pastime

 

Don't feel mocked. Most of what you 'thought' you knew about HIV/AIDS, is not what it really IS. However, I believe this is why we're seeing such an increase in bareback porn and pornstars nowadays. But, just because AIDS dissidents are becoming commonplace, doesn't mean bareback should be done on a whim with nothing to back it up. Certainly not to be asked by a stranger from a glory-hole in the wall.

[Strafe13]

Present, yes, but studies have shown that it's extremely unlikely for persons who are fully compliant with ARV meds, such that their HIV levels are undetectable, to infect others with HIV. Similarly, if one is on PrEP (which is only for HIV negative individuals), the studies have shown that the efficacy for prevention of HIV infection is similar to or even exceeds the rate shown by using condoms. Moreover, the most recent studies have demonstrated that it's virtually impossible for a positive-undetectable person to infect a negative-on-PrEP person.

 

I mentioned this most recent scientific evidence to illustrate that medical advances have changed the rules, so to speak, and the old calculus that safer sex is all (or mostly) about condom usage, is somewhat outdated and incomplete, to say the least. Acknowledging this change, unless one knows a particular escort's or client's circumstances, it's very imprudent to label them as pariahs or unconscionable persons if they choose to engage in condom less sex on all, or certain, occasions.

 

This has nothing to do with the boundaries certain clients, or escorts, choose to set in their selection of prospective encounters. But the calculus has changed, and so the super judgmental activity that so often arises on this issue should probably also change. For those who insist on condom usage all the time, more power to them. But that doesn't mean that people who choose otherwise, and who may incorporate other preventive techniques, should be vilified or ostracized. Plus, if one believes so strongly in condom use, and adheres to it each and every time, then logically, it should not matter what one's prospective partners (including potential escort hires) do with others, since uniform condom use operates on the assumption that all such partners are HIV positive anyway.

 

 

 

"med-compliant positive persons with undetectable viral loads are extremely unlikely to infect others, and condom use is no longer the only method of safer-sex/prevention (see PrEP)."

 

 

"Having an undetectable viral load does NOT mean that a person has been cured of HIV. If the treatment is stopped new virus will immediately start to be made again. However, on treatment, because there IS very little HIV in the blood, the immune system can stay strong and fight infections."

[Strafe13]

By the way, to avoid potential confusion, although the first of drintor's quotes is from my earlier post, the second is not.

 

I also realize that my earlier post may have been a bit confusing in that I classified PrEP use as a form of safer sex along with condom use, but then said generically that I had safer sex with an escort who does BB porn, but didn't specify exactly which kind. To be clear, we did use condoms, although I alluded to it when I mentioned that the escort provided his own large sized brand. Plus, we both continually checked on the integrity of the condoms, and went through several during the session, just to be sure. I have no idea what that escort's HIV status was at the time we met, nor do I know what his safer sex practices, if any, were outside of that which I'd seen in his porn scenes. The point, is, since I was ignorant of his medical condition and most of his sexual practices and history, as I am ignorant of that with practically any hire or personal sexual encounter, I simply protected myself, which is all any of us can do if we choose to be sexually active.

 

"med-compliant positive persons with undetectable viral loads are extremely unlikely to infect others, and condom use is no longer the only method of safer-sex/prevention (see PrEP)."

 

 

"Having an undetectable viral load does NOT mean that a person has been cured of HIV. If the treatment is stopped new virus will immediately start to be made again. However, on treatment, because there IS very little HIV in the blood, the immune system can stay strong and fight infections."

[Guest ChrisW]

*eats popcorn and watches*

[rocky]

I'm back and here I go. First off, for those of use who engage in sex with any escort, I don't care if they claim to be the most virgin of them all, and excuse me, they've opted to be escorts which means they've engaged in multiple sex partners. Oh yes they wore a condom, did they have oral? Did they kiss? AIDS is not only spread through anal sex the last I heard but if I'm wrong someone will correct me. Not a single escort can start banging the drum about "you must wear condoms, I'm here to save the world from AIDS." Bullshit, you're here to make money having sex with other guys who you don't know who they have had sex with. I'm so tired of hearing about the righteous who tell others on what they can or cannot do. I've never hear an escort say I'm in this just to make you happy.

[+ Gar1eth]

Similarly, if one is on PrEP (which is only for HIV negative individuals), the studies have shown that the efficacy for prevention of HIV infection is similar to or even exceeds the rate shown by using condoms.

 

Studies like this almost never reflect real life behavior. That's why the pregnancy rate with condoms or The Pill are greater than those predicted by studies. For example- you took your last Truvada yesterday. You meant to go get another bottle today, but work ran late and you are supposed to meet your friends at the local gay bar. So you don't pick it up. Some cute guy at the bar gives you the eye, and you end up going home with him. In the heat of foreplay, he slips inside you bare. You are so used to going bare because you have been on Truvada. Well you are now over 24 hours past the time of your last pill- your protection level- may not be zilch- but it ain't good.

 

As for undetectable viral loads not passing on the illness-sure if you are undetectable. But it's not human nature to take pills daily. One little screw up and BOOM- the virus comes back.

 

Gman

[Newly]

OK, my last word on this topic, just letting you guys know what it looks like to someone who by-passed the emotional part of this because during the time when so many were dying from Aids I wasn't at risk and didn't have any gay friends, so although I knew what was going on and thought it was horrible, I wasn't directly in the line of fire.

 

(1) Obviously there are a lot of people who enjoy not using condoms. Forget about the gay population, when birth control pills first came out the condom industry almost went under. And yes, there are a lot of STDs besides HIV that can be prevented in straight sex by the use of condoms.

 

(2) There are a lot of people who saw friends die miserable deaths from AIDS. I understand that this would be traumatic, but it also clouds one's vision. Current medication is not a joy ride, but HIV is no longer a quick, painful death sentence. And yes, Truvada is not 100% proven but early results look good. By the way, if you're the one taking it you know if you're taking it daily, and missing a day does NOT decrease your safety factor by a lot, it's equivalent to a woman missing one dosage of her birth control pill. If you can't afford it isn't an option, but that's a whole other matter.

 

(3) For 100% safety you would abstain from sex or at the very least always use condoms. You would also never drink, not eat fatty foods, go sky-diving, mountain climb, ride a motorcycle or a zillion other things. Each person has to decide what their own comfort level of safety is. By the way, many of these examples also put society in a position of having to potentially pay for your care, so the constant argument about how barebacking is something we all have to pay for is not very convincing.

 

So, the way I see it you have to assume that regardless of what you think any sex partner is a potential carrier of STDs and you have to take whatever level of protection you're comfortable with and quit worrying and stressing about what others do. I'm truly sorry about the horrible times some people went through, but in a way it reminds me of people I knew who lived in the Great Depression and could never get over it, so they saved every penny and acted like they were going to be penniless until the day they died, even if they were millionaires. Well, seeing the way the economy has been maybe they were right, but it was just an example.

[Strafe13]

With all due respect, Gman, your reasoning (at least as illustrated in your examples) is overly simplistic. The persons performing this research take human behavior into account when measuring error rates and infection/pregnancy rates. Part of the reasons that condoms are not some panacea for unwanted pregnancy or STI infection is that just one instance of their breaking, slipping off, or failure to use them reduces their efficacy, as to that incident, down to zero, and the parties are then left to the random chance inherent in the activity sans condom use. Truvada (aka PrEP) is shown to still have effectiveness at well over 90% even with a missed dose (remember, the condom prevention rate is itself between 90-95%), and it drops further only with increased missed doses over the 7-day span. Quite unlike, and thus superior to, the risks inherent in condom usage, and a far cry from the "ain't good" protection rate that you theorized. Similarly, your undetectable example isn't on the money because the virus doesn't just "BOOM ... come back" (to the extent that's even an appropriate colloquialism) due to one, or even a few intermittently missed doses. (It should also be noted that not all PrEP users go bare all the time. Many use it in conjunction with condoms, as an "insurance policy," so they no longer worry or freak out about the risks of condom breakage or slipping off and leaking.)

 

There's nothing wrong with someone insisting on using condoms all the time. But we must acknowledge that condom usage has always carried its own risk, as do less traditional methods like PrEP use. If an escort is negative and on PrEP (and he obviously knows if he's fully compliant with the dosing schedule) it seems less prudent, and more irrational and "scarlet letter-ish", to vilify him if he entertains a policy of negotiating BB vs condom usage with his clients or in his personal life. Similarly, if he is positive, but with an undetectable viral load and is fully compliant with his meds schedule, then he's obviously not some freak who's going out there knowingly infecting people, especially if he uses condoms with those clients/partners who prefer them (as to the other category of clients/partners, he's effectively shooting blanks anyway, but if they have a bare fetish, then whatever floats their respective boats, I guess).

 

Studies like this almost never reflect real life behavior. That's why the pregnancy rate with condoms or The Pill are greater than those predicted by the study. For example- you took your last Truvada yesterday. You meant to go get another bottle today, but work ran late and you are supposed to meet your friends at the local gay bar. So you don't pick it up. Some cute guy at the bar gives you the eye, and you end up going home with him. In the heat of foreplay, he slips inside you bare. You are so used to going bare because you have been on Truvada. Well you are now over 24 hours past the time of your last pill- your protection level- may not be zilch- but it ain't good.

 

As for undetectable viral loads not passing on the illness-sure if you are undetectable. But it's not human nature to take pills daily. One little screw up and BOOM- the virus comes back.

 

Gman

[Steven_Draker]

I'm back and here I go. First off, for those of use who engage in sex with any escort, I don't care if they claim to be the most virgin of them all, and excuse me, they've opted to be escorts which means they've engaged in multiple sex partners. Oh yes they wore a condom, did they have oral? Did they kiss? AIDS is not only spread through anal sex the last I heard but if I'm wrong someone will correct me. Not a single escort can start banging the drum about "you must wear condoms, I'm here to save the world from AIDS." Bullshit, you're here to make money having sex with other guys who you don't know who they have had sex with. I'm so tired of hearing about the righteous who tell others on what they can or cannot do. I've never hear an escort say I'm in this just to make you happy.

 

What's up with that "emotional diarrhea", Rocky? (all rights to ChrisW)

 

Not a single escort can start banging the drum about "you must wear condoms, I'm here to save the world from AIDS."

 

You have a problem with escorts who play safe and use condoms?

[Steven_Draker]

I mentioned this most recent scientific evidence to illustrate that medical advances have changed the rules, so to speak, and the old calculus that safer sex is all (or mostly) about condom usage, is somewhat outdated and incomplete, to say the least. Acknowledging this change, unless one knows a particular escort's or client's circumstances, it's very imprudent to label them as pariahs or unconscionable persons if they choose to engage in condom less sex on all, or certain, occasions.

 

There's someone like you who kept the same type of lax speech, lowered his guard and seroconverted. His partner had to be tested too and it turns out he got infected, because he didn't know the guy was fucking bareback behind his back. We're talking about a long-term loving relationship. That's one way the virus is spread nowadays.

 

Reading stories online and talking to people in the gay community, I have a feeling that Poz folks want to put everyone on PrEP and start fucking and acting like there's no tomorrow.

 

Destructive anyone?

[rocky]

Not at all; and I don't think your reference is fair at all. What I'm saying is we all make decisions and forgive me for being blunt; there are many on this forum who are selling their bodies to others and others like myself who are paying for it, you take a risk, simple as that. I don't like being told what I should or should not being doing, in a forum such as this and if you think it's emotional diarrhea, well god bless you.

[+ quoththeraven]

I'd tried really hard not to post anything in this thread because I thought no good would come of it. But fuck it, I'm going to anyway.

 

None of us really know what's going on in another person's life and we don't really have the right to judge. But we do anyway. Like newtothis, this wasn't all that relevant to me during the AIDS crisis because I wasn't a gay man nor was I at risk, and I didn't personally know anyone who died from AIDS. But not that long before we knew about AIDS, I'd engaged in what was in retrospect risky sex. I didn't suffer for it, probably because my partners (who weren't all that numerous) hadn't had many partners of their own who'd also engaged in risky sex.

 

The problem is that there's no way to know anyone's sex practices other than our own. Even with a regular partner we think is monogamous or always uses condoms, as Steven Draker's post points out. That is probably the best reason to continue to use of condoms (alternatively, take PrEP/Truvada or both) or not engage in sex acts that run the risk of transmission. The other benefit of using condoms is not having to interrogate one's sex partners and rely on what they say. Even if you see lab results proving that someone's tested negative for STIs, that doesn't mean they're free of HIV at the time (due to the window period) nor does it guarantee their future status. And people have been known to lie under circumstances less fraught than the desire for sex.

 

Also, while there are studies, testing of a drug is still not the same as general usage. It's not unknown for side effects or other downsides not to show up (or not be publicized) until after FDA approval and more widespread usage. Sometimes adverse results are suppressed or the results of drug trials are cooked. And efficacy rates could change. For that reason, I take the supposed upsides of a new drug with a grain of salt (or more) until there's been more experience with it. I'm no more suspicious of PrEP/Truvada than any other drug new to the market, but these are still things to keep in mind.

[Strafe13]

Steven, please don't selectively quote and then simplify what I've written just to provide a vehicle for your anecdotal "evidence". I note that you gave no time frame for your story (Truvada as PrEP wasn't approved for such use until 2012), which undermines its accuracy, or at least it's applicability to what I was discussing. Your story is what my statistics professor referred to as the "person who" phenomenon, where otherwise rational people dismiss evidence gathered through accepted scientific means because they know/heard of a "person who" allegedly had a contrary experience.

 

I really think you should reconsider your last statement b/c I think it unfairly generalizes and maligns "poz folk". I'm not telling anyone to do anything, but the medical advances are here, and it's time we deal with it and recognize that this changes things, just like prior advances in all kinds of fields did. Most importantly, we should be speaking to all members of our community with more compassion and respect, which is often lacking on threads in general, but especially concerning this topic.

 

There's someone like you who kept the same type of lax speech, lowered his guard and seroconverted. His partner had to be tested too and it turns out he got infected, because he didn't know the guy was fucking bareback behind his back. We're talking about a long-term loving relationship. That's one way the virus is spread nowadays.

 

Reading stories online and talking to people in the gay community, I have a feeling that Poz folks want to put everyone on PrEP and start fucking and acting like there's no tomorrow.

 

Destructive anyone?

[SteveEscort]

Oh yes they wore a condom, did they have oral? Did they kiss? AIDS is not only spread through anal sex the last I heard but if I'm wrong someone will correct me. Not a single escort can start banging the drum about "you must wear condoms, I'm here to save the world from AIDS." Bullshit, you're here to make money having sex with other guys who you don't know who they have had sex with.

 

Errm excuse me a second. For a start ...... no one is spreading AIDS. AIDS is not the infection you catch, it's called HIV AND HIV can develop into AIDS. That's Can not Will.

 

Secondly.... please don't scaremonger with nonsense about kissing. Yes you can get HIV from oral sex as a the recipient partner but it's rare, it's virtually unheard of to be able to catch HIV from being given a blow job and as for kissing, you would have to have swallowed gut buckets full of infected saliva to be even in with a minute chance of contracting an infection. There are a lot of accurate statistics out there giving you an informed choice and that's what it is.... Yes those words again giving you an informed choice.

 

Everyone, when engaging in sexual contact with another person is taking some sort of risk. I do it every day of my life and that is a risk I am happy to take. As I mentioned earlier, I have an HIV test every 4 to 6 weeks and I publish my results on my website and twitter account. I take as many precautions as possible and yes I do not perform oral with a condom on anyone but in the last two or three years I've been asked to perform oral with a condom on guys less than half a dozen times, if that's what he prefers then we do it his way but it's rare for the client to say "Can you rubber me up Steve before your mouth goes near it".

 

At the end of the day, whatever choice is made between an escort and a client is their informed choice. If you don't like the idea of seeing gentlemen who have multiple sexual partners, just stay in the house and watch some porn, it's the safest sex you can have.

 

In response to your other statement... Yes, I am here to have sex with men who don't know how many sexual partners I have had but.... hey there.... I am not exactly asking him for a resume of his sexual history either, at least by publishing my HIV status every month I am giving something back to the people who trust me to be safe and I don't publish it for my benefit. I publish it for their peace of mind.

[Steven_Draker]

it unfairly generalizes and maligns "poz folk"

 

Please do not put words in my mouth.

[Epigonos]

When I first saw this thread I decided to stay out of the fray. Now, however, having read SteveEscort's response I believe I should state that as far as I'm concerned his post is ABSOLUTELY and TOTALLY SPOT ON. Nice job Steve -- I couldn't agree more.

[liubit]

+1 here.

[jakeleyman]

Could I ask a couple of questions.

1. Does anyone know a person who has never received anal sex but only received oral sex who is positive?

2. I have difficulty figuring how to get regularly tested in my small home town as a closet guy. I am traveling less but my usual testing is when I am away from home. Is that swab test available in pharmacies? Can I purchase it somewhere and keep it for future testing?

Thank you.

[Epigonos]

Unfortunately jakelyman there is absolutely NO WAY to substantiate whether or not a HIV+ individual contracted the disease through oral sex only. One is totally dependent on the word of the HIV+ individual and that can be dicey. SteveEscort is absolutely correct the only completely safe sexual practice is masturbation and after a while that can become a bore – at least it did for me. Eventually I wanted a warm live body next to me which I could explore and enjoy. I also want a warm hard condom free cock in my mouth. After tons of internet research I decided that the odds of contracting HIV through oral condom free sex was small enough that I was and am willing to take the chance. This is a decision that each of us must make for ourselves. I’m not into anal sex thus I haven’t had to concern myself with safety practice regarding fucking.

 

Regarding your second question I’m afraid I can’t be of much assistance. I live in the L.A. area of Southern California and free clinics for HIV testing abound. You might have to make a special trip to your nearest large city every so often to be tested.