Chutzpah

[ad rian]

RE: Columbus Day!

 

>I ask this in all sincerity, since I make no claim to being

>a history buff. How far back does this regard for history

>extend? Is there some kind of statute of limitations on

>historical claims? Why doesn’t the even more ancient claim

>that the Jews have over Israel trump the more recent claim

>of the Palestinians?

>

>Why do you always stop your historical point of references

>at a time where it might excuse present day behavior?

 

That's a fair question. I think the noted Israeli historian, Benny Morris has written much, at first disapprovingly, but now approvingly of the expulsion of Palestinians in 1948. For me, that is one decisive fact. If one does not take that into account in the life-time of those who were expelled then one leverages injustice and ancient torments into the future. (I think that is why many like David Horowitz favor reparations for Jewish victims of the Holocaust now, whiile not favoring it for the Black descendants of slaves. I am not sure that I agree, but at best that's how I understand his position.)

 

The other decisive factor for me in the Palestinian situation is the demographic/democratic element which is conceded by many on the Israeli left and some on the Israeli right. Given diminished Jewish immigration to Israel and the higher Palestinian birth rates in both Israel proper (pre-1967 borders) and in the West Bank and Gaza, I find it difficult to accept the occupation. I will concede, however, that if expulsion had ben more succesful in 1948, and if in the course of the last 50 years, Jews had been able to dominate demographically between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean Sea, even I might have to hold my nose and suppport their claim on pragmatic grounds. (Of course, that is precisely why international law and the UN Charter itself has always recognized the right of a people under occupation to resist their occupiers, and why the Geneva Conventions do not permit the re-settlement of populations on land occupied in war. To do otherwise, would be to create precisely the "facts on the ground" that bedevil the world now in Israel/Palstine.)

 

Without going it into much more detail, I don't think that either factor is at play in Kuwait, and so am not troubled by the Iraqui claim. What to do about Pakistan? I am not sure, but my preference is for multi-ethnic, secular states. I guess that is why I find the PLO/Fatah to be much more sympathetic than either Hamas or the Israeli Zionists of either Labour or Likud.

 

Thanks for the question. You see it is posible to debate these issues rationally and in calm.

[ad rian]

RE: Columbus Day!

 

> For me, that is one decisive fact.

>If one does not take that into account in the life-time of

>those who were expelled then one leverages injustice and

>ancient torments into the future.

 

>(....To do otherwise, would be to create precisely the

>"facts on the ground" that bedevil the world now in

>Israel/Palstine.)

 

Sorry, but I forgot to add above that it is precisely because the world, the UN, and the Clinton Administration and Senator Dole etc, recognized these points that we acted so forcefully in Kosovo, and eventually (even if not as quickly as necessity and moral imperatives might have counselled) acted in Bosnia and Rwanda.

[Guest Bitchboy]

If Bloomberg is an honorable man, he should feel free to attend any event that did not offend his beliefs. If he has significant beliefs contrary to the majority of his constituents he shouldn't be mayor. Anyway, asking the question was just a cover for a chance to dump on Israel. Who said all Palestinians are evil anyway? No one. It's what you wanted to hear, so that's what you heard.

[BewareofNick]

>I appreciate that, but what makes Israel more complicated

>than any other contentious issue, and how on earth can

>anyone pretend that the Iraq and Israel issues are not

>linked?

 

The problem ad rian, is taht you cannot seem to answer ANY question without bringing up Israel, even when it has nothing to with the subject of discussion

[ad rian]

>The problem ad rian, is taht you cannot seem to answer ANY

>question without bringing up Israel, even when it has

>nothing to with the subject of discussion

 

That's nonsense. You want to talk about Iraq without talking about Israel. I repeat, buddy NOT EVEN OUR ALLIES AGREE WITH YOU, NOT EVEN TONY! You want to talk about sexual abuse by RC priests, when the phenomenon exists among other religious leaders including Jews, I will add balance to the discussion. If you want to talk about hypocritical politics or cultural issues about one ethnic group, I will add balance. Buddy, you got to learn to take as good as you give. If you can't then get out of the arena!