Coming out

[Guest LatinoRican]

At 62, I have only said, "I'm gay," to a colleague about 25 years ago and she could not have cared less. Apparently, some gay men have the need to "come out" and tell family, friends, and co-workers that they are gay. Don't you think that parents, especially mothers, know if you are gay or not? Don't you think my relatives figured it out when I did my aunt's hair and eyebrows on a weekly basis? And what about straight friends? I've never had to tell any of my straight friends I'm gay. I'm not outrageously flamboyant, but they know on which side my bread is buttered (Olympia Dukakis in Steel Magnolias). And don't get me started on co-workers. Who do you think they come to for ideas on this or that event! They don't know I'm gay without my telling them? Yeah, right. If you feel the need for the world to know you are gay, that's fine. Go and yell it from the rooftops. For me, being myself has worked up to now and at this late date I'm not about to change my ways.

[josephga]

At 62, I have only said, "I'm gay," to a colleague about 25 years ago and she could not have cared less. Apparently, some gay men have the need to "come out" and tell family, friends, and co-workers that they are gay. Don't you think that parents, especially mothers, know if you are gay or not? Don't you think my relatives figured it out when I did my aunt's hair and eyebrows on a weekly basis? And what about straight friends? I've never had to tell any of my straight friends I'm gay. I'm not outrageously flamboyant, but they know on which side my bread is buttered (Olympia Dukakis in Steel Magnolias). And don't get me started on co-workers. Who do you think they come to for ideas on this or that event! They don't know I'm gay without my telling them? Yeah, right. If you feel the need for the world to know you are gay, that's fine. Go and yell it from the rooftops. For me, being myself has worked up to now and at this late date I'm not about to change my ways.

 

 

One point you mentioned I 100% agree with I don't care how str8 acting or macho any man claims too be a mother always knows. I do regret ever telling my parents. nothing good came from it. I think my mother knew and it wasn't real to her until I said it to her face. she would have just been fine and dandy if id just never said anything.. I didn't dare tell anyone in the military and didn't act on it until leaving the military. I would never tell a coworker I just don't see it as their business.

[Strafe13]

Sorry but I have to present the other side here...

 

I kind of have to play Devil's Advocate here and ask about the right of the wife in doitb4ugo's case. While it makes sense to not up-heave her life now that she's in her late 50s/early 60s (assuming she's in the same age range as doit), isn't it also a bit paternalistic and arrogant to make that decision for her? Does she not have the right to know who she's been married to her whole life? Does she not have the right to decide for herself if she wants to stay in a marriage with a gay man, rather than take this time to perhaps try and find a straight man she can be with for the remaining few decades of her life? Doesn't she deserves to have a fully honest marriage? Of course, from her perspective it's been honest and doit I'm sure didn't maliciously intend to deceive her.

 

I understand that a gay man can still love and care deeply for his wife of several decades even if he has now come to terms with who he is. But I can't help but feel that the wife is suffering a terrible injustice here because there has not been full disclosure between the spouses of an aspect of personal identity so fundamental as one's sexual orientation. I understand doit's reasons for the choice he's made to remain closeted, but that choice has consequences for both him and his wife and it seems unfair that she should remain in the dark about this. She has a right to her life and she's been robbed of an open and honest marriage. Plus, if doit is fulfilling his sexual urges with men on the side, he is potentially exposing his wife to any number of STIs, even if he takes precautions with the fine escorts affiliated with this site.

 

As much as I sympathize with his plight and the reasons he has for remaining closeted, I just think that there are others involved, especially his wife, who have interests in this information as well. In one of life's many paradoxes, sexual orientation is one of the most private aspects of one's self and also one of the most public parts of our identities as well. The wife & children, in particular are robbed of the opportunity to truly know their spouse/parent. The closet is an incredibly powerfully destructive force on society generally and it obviously has destructive individual consequences as well. There is no easy answer (such is not our lot in life, it seems), but there are others involved here who are hurt by this situation. Unless we're all hermits, there are people in our lives with whom we are close. Sometimes the nature of that close relationship means that our decisions have consequences, such that we might owe them a duty to be honest, even when we feel that privacy concerns would dictate otherwise.

 

Just my two cents, of course. Now stepping down off my soapbox.

[NYTomcat]

I kind of have to play Devil's Advocate here and ask about the right of the wife in doitb4ugo's case. While it makes sense to not up-heave her life now that she's in her late 50s/early 60s (assuming she's in the same age range as doit), isn't it also a bit paternalistic and arrogant to make that decision for her? Does she not have the right to know who she's been married to her whole life? Does she not have the right to decide for herself if she wants to stay in a marriage with a gay man, rather than take this time to perhaps try and find a straight man she can be with for the remaining few decades of her life? Doesn't she deserves to have a fully honest marriage? Of course, from her perspective it's been honest and doit I'm sure didn't maliciously intend to deceive her.

 

I understand that a gay man can still love and care deeply for his wife of several decades even if he has now come to terms with who he is. But I can't help but feel that the wife is suffering a terrible injustice here because there has not been full disclosure between the spouses of an aspect of personal identity so fundamental as one's sexual orientation. I understand doit's reasons for the choice he's made to remain closeted, but that choice has consequences for both him and his wife and it seems unfair that she should remain in the dark about this. She has a right to her life and she's been robbed of an open and honest marriage. Plus, if doit is fulfilling his sexual urges with men on the side, he is potentially exposing his wife to any number of STIs, even if he takes precautions with the fine escorts affiliated with this site.

 

As much as I sympathize with his plight and the reasons he has for remaining closeted, I just think that there are others involved, especially his wife, who have interests in this information as well. In one of life's many paradoxes, sexual orientation is one of the most private aspects of one's self and also one of the most public parts of our identities as well. The wife & children, in particular are robbed of the opportunity to truly know their spouse/parent. The closet is an incredibly powerfully destructive force on society generally and it obviously has destructive individual consequences as well. There is no easy answer (such is not our lot in life, it seems), but there are others involved here who are hurt by this situation. Unless we're all hermits, there are people in our lives with whom we are close. Sometimes the nature of that close relationship means that our decisions have consequences, such that we might owe them a duty to be honest, even when we feel that privacy concerns would dictate otherwise.

 

Just my two cents, of course. Now stepping down off my soapbox.

 

No you took the soapbox and honesty has consequences. First you assume a great deal when you speak of exposing the spouse to STI. You assume that a sexual relationship is still ongoing in the marriage. This is very often not the case and merely an assumption.

 

Believe me that I truly appreciate the way and well meaning post you have made here. You are absolutely correct these are conflicts I face everyday with every breathe. And I would like to say that I truly from the bottom of my heart appreciate the very respectful way you presented these issues and your viewpoint.

 

That said. Not every path works in every situation. If I have learned anything its that one size never fits all or even many. We have to trust that I and Doit and others like us are doing what we believe is best for all the parties concerned. what is truly private is that we have the right to determine the best path for ourselves and our loved ones individually and without the pressure from any outside sources but cognizent of the stresses that come from outside. Now I have decided that my path is too seperate. at the ripe old age of 40 that seems young enough that my spouse and I can have full seperate lives. But that is my choice and not one anyone else should make just because its my option to live honestly and that I believe that is in my and my spouses best interest.

[doitb4ugo]

I disappoint myself sometimes al well

 

Strafe13, I can't really disagree with any of the points you make. They have been much on my mind for the last 6 months. I have no moral compass to excuse my course but I defend my love of wife as being something not so simply dismissed by dishonesty or lies.

 

If I believed in a God or in a human soul I might be concerned for the moral aspects of my situation which are clearly not in my favor. Yet what I am doing fits well enough into my definition of love.

[Strafe13]

Tomcat, I completely see where you and doit are coming from and what you both say makes a lot of sense. But at the same time, these are decisions you are making for others and these others happen to be adults who are capable of making fundamental life choices for themselves. Of course the "others" I'm thinking of in this case are the wives, but this could equally apply to straight husbands of lesbians. (This could apply to a lesser extent to adult children, too.) I understand that you must do what you think is best for yourselves and your partners. But at the same time knowledge is power and a closeted gay spouse in a straight marriage has a tremendous amount of power over his/her partner's life (as do all who open their lives to intimate relationships with others). I like and respect you* and don't at all mean this to accuse or attack you, doit, or others in a similar situation. But that being said, much of what you eloquently described about privacy and choice was framed in the comforting language of autonomy and self-determination. That is, of course, everyone's right (at least until the conservative Supreme Ct decides otherwise;) ). But the spouse kept in the dark has no say whatsoever in something that so deeply and intimately concerns him/her? Couldn't she/he find someone with whom their sexual orientation is truly compatible? Even in one's early 60s there's plenty of time left to live an honest, sexually & romantically fulfilling life, even more so if he/she is only 40. (particularly since women tend to have longer life expectancies). The closeted spouse's choice denies the straight spouse the right to determine his/her life on an equal footing. While the closeted spouse may be comfortable with the decisions he/she has made (both for himself and for others) it's undeniable that said decision costs the other spouse something dear and I'm not sure that's fair or right.

 

And while I was making an assumption about marital intimacy, it's certainly not an unreasonable one, particularly if the closeted spouse is still doing his/her best to "keep up appearances" so to speak. And there are some STIs that, despite the descriptive terminology of the acronym, can still be transmitted by non-sexual contact. Sure the risk is relatively small, but that's a risk one should be taking with full knowledge of the situation. Plus, the fact that sexual intimacy in these kinds of marriages may be non-existent as you posit is most likely a result of the poor pairing of a mixed-orientation marriage. This further underscores the point that the straight spouse would likely benefit from an authentically matched marital relationship. Some straight spouses choose to remain in these kinds of marriages, and have certain "understandings" with the gay spouse to maintain the family life which everyone is accustomed to. But that's their choice to make after they are finally made privy to the kind of marriage they are in.

 

At this juncture the closeted spouse holds all the cards, all the power, and that just seems like an incredible imbalance, particularly if he/she gets to have same-sex sexual encounters on the side while the straight spouse may stay in a sex-less marriage, but otherwise be clueless as to what's really going on in their own lives.

 

*I think you helped me out with some questions on the GTB website when I was planning a trip. No judgment or anything, but just offered advice and I thank you for that. I think that's what we do best on this forum. In my responses here I'm just trying to present another side because I really do believe that besides marriage, job discrimination, military exclusion, etc., the closet is the most destructive thing that our bigoted society does to gay people. This is just one issue where the closet really harms us and those straight people that we love as well and it makes me angry that our society forces such harm upon its people this way.

 

No you took the soapbox and honesty has consequences. First you assume a great deal when you speak of exposing the spouse to STI. You assume that a sexual relationship is still ongoing in the marriage. This is very often not the case and merely an assumption.

 

Believe me that I truly appreciate the way and well meaning post you have made here. You are absolutely correct these are conflicts I face everyday with every breathe. And I would like to say that I truly from the bottom of my heart appreciate the very respectful way you presented these issues and your viewpoint.

 

That said. Not every path works in every situation. If I have learned anything its that one size never fits all or even many. We have to trust that I and Doit and others like us are doing what we believe is best for all the parties concerned. what is truly private is that we have the right to determine the best path for ourselves and our loved ones individually and without the pressure from any outside sources but cognizent of the stresses that come from outside. Now I have decided that my path is too seperate. at the ripe old age of 40 that seems young enough that my spouse and I can have full seperate lives. But that is my choice and not one anyone else should make just because its my option to live honestly and that I believe that is in my and my spouses best interest.

[NYTomcat]

Lets just agree that we disagree and as its my decision in this instance that matters This power player wins.

 

As to STi transmitted by casual contact You could bring that home to your loved one by shaking kissing an old friend so I really dont believe such a threat is truly a concern.

 

Unfortunately you also make some incorrect assumptions again. Assuming that it was society that drove me into the closet. I grew up with two gay godfathers and a very open and accepting family. Many of my friends were gay and I still live such a life that most if not all of my friends would accept me for who I am. I dont allow people who would judge a gay lifestyle in my life. I have said the reason for my closet life before so I wont revisit it. The attached link will help explain.

 

http://www.companyofmen.org/showthread.php?t=73871

Post #11

 

But once again, this isnt a soapbox for any movement or belief. This is a personal life, with personal choices, right or wrong its not necessarily sociology and no absolute rules apply

[JackTwist]

As one who used to see this in very black and white terms, I learned from this site all of the various situations that men find themselves in and changed my tune. It's not a one-size-fits-all situation, and each person has to analyze his choices and come up with his own individual result. Being openly gay has worked for me, but I realize that my circumstances have been fortunate. If you cannot come out to everyone, at least come out to yourself, know who you are, and deal with it the best that you can.

 

I couldn't agree more, Lucky. Very well said!

[Strafe13]

I'll check out your link since I don't believe I'm familiar with your backstory. I tried to use as many general terms & pronouns as possible (i.e. the straight spouse, closeted gay spouse, he/she, etc.) to show that I wasn't speaking about any one person's experience in particular, but was expressing my opinion on the situation generally. So my assumptions were necessary as I was speaking generally, not specifically. I'm sorry if you thought my post was in any way directed specifically towards you or if you thought I meant in any way to judge the particular reasons why you've lived your life in the way that you see fit. I was just trying to express another perspective because it seemed that most of the comments were mostly one-sided. I was trying to address the fact that the closet is a very destructive phenomenon to all gay people irrespective of the length of time we've spent in it, how out or in we are or have been, or the reasons why we were ever closeted at all. I think it also has more concrete and direct harms on the straight people in our lives, at least much moreso than other gay "crosses" like marriage inequality, DADT, employment discrimination, etc. That's why I felt the desire to comment on this subject matter and from this perspective. I'm sorry if there was any confusion.

[NYTomcat]

I'll check out your link since I don't believe I'm familiar with your backstory. I tried to use as many general terms & pronouns as possible (i.e. the straight spouse, closeted gay spouse, he/she, etc.) to show that I wasn't speaking about any one person's experience in particular, but was expressing my opinion on the situation generally. So my assumptions were necessary as I was speaking generally, not specifically. I'm sorry if you thought my post was in any way directed specifically towards you or if you thought I meant in any way to judge the particular reasons why you've lived your life in the way that you see fit. I was just trying to express another perspective because it seemed that most of the comments were mostly one-sided. I was trying to address the fact that the closet is a very destructive phenomenon to all gay people irrespective of the length of time we've spent in it, how out or in we are or have been, or the reasons why we were ever closeted at all. I think it also has more concrete and direct harms on the straight people in our lives, at least much moreso than other gay "crosses" like marriage inequality, DADT, employment discrimination, etc. That's why I felt the desire to comment on this subject matter and from this perspective. I'm sorry if there was any confusion.

 

Strafe NOT at all. In fact I said it before and PM'd you as well. I dont think Doit or myself or anyone else thinks you are wrong, well not completely. We agree with many things you say and in fact debate these same concerns every day. Its just sometimes easy to white wash every relationship with the same brush. I point out the assumptions of my particular case not because I believed in any way you were making this discussion personal or about me. Rather I want to show that ever single one of us has individual differences that make any real assumptions about relationships and personal lives just impossible to make. So while I agree with many concerns, In fact its why I am headed to seperation (I believe both my wife and I deserve the right to seek a better truer romantic relationship) But... i could esily have choosen the other way I dont think we can make assumpions about every "cheating" spouse or that the "closet" is a completely negative decision. Though I dont, I am sure there are many small town posters here who could confirm what they would have to give up to maintain life in their somewhat more narrow minded environ.

 

So I didn't take anything you posted personally. and truly believe you present the argument well. I only say that anyone who tells you this issue is black/ white or even shades of gray really needs to take another look at this crayola box

[Strafe13]

Too True

 

I agree with you, Tomcat, that this is certainly not a black & white issue. In fact, in my relatively short life experience, I've found that most things in life aren't B&W. Best of luck to you in your situation. Perhaps if we're ever in Brazil at the same time I'd love to hang out with you (assuming you're the same person from the GTB website that I'm thinking of). Good night.

 

So I didn't take anything you posted personally. and truly believe you present the argument well. I only say that anyone who tells you this issue is black/ white or even shades of gray really needs to take another look at this crayola box

[NYTomcat]

Life's a song

 

Ok so those of you that know me know I can boil anything down into a song. Now admittedly I stay away from Country.... Normally But I was just sitting here reading this last post when this song came on the radio. This just seems way to appropriate for us married/closeted guys hiring: LMAO Just listen to the lyrics:

 

[Boomer]

I also believe that being closeted and married is very unfair to the woman and also to the children, if in fact there are children involved. No matter how well a person may believe that they are pulling off being straight, in some form or another the deception will manifest itself. If one is in a marriage, which I presume is understood by the spouses to be monogamous, at least in accordance with most marriage vows, then that brings up the whole issue of lies and deceit should one have sex outside of the marriage, and yes there is a chance of transmitting STD's. That cannot be rationalized. My neighbor was married and in the military for 25 years. He finally out when he retired from the military. He married so that he could advance his military career. There were some very hurt feelings and some serious consequences because of the deception. Some extremely serious consequences. It wasn't all bad and he does have 4 adorable grandchildren and now has a boyfriend of 7 years. He seems pretty happy, but he has told me that he was often miserable during his marriage. I do not think that it's necessary to come out only if you're a "mincing fairy." Let's not forget about the queens who gave us Stonewall. Even though one may not prefer the company of effeminate men, there's no shame in being effeminate, just as there's no shame in having blue eyes. The more diversity in the gay community that others can experience the better. Gay men and women are as diverse as the rest of society. It's the people in your life who know and love you that need to know and love the authentic you. When I came out to my very conservative father he was so grateful. He was blind at the time and wrote me a lengthy letter telling me how proud he was. From then on we had a very close and much more honest relationship. I understand that in some situations, particularly for those raised in the south or in Pentecostal or Mormon religions, that it's very likely that a person coming out would be disowned by their family. Religious dogma may also come into play since one might believe that they are going to hell. Not having come from that kind of situation I can only empathize, but in the end I believe that the person would probably be better off creating a new family that would support and love them for who they really are. The main reason that homosexuality is more accepted in 2010 is because more people know gay men and women. I really don't mean to pass judgement on those who choose to get married and lead a straight life. I understand that there is no black or white only shades of gray (although in my case I could have never married a woman and pulled it off). I'm sure that there will be a price to pay for what I've said, but I do believe that people who think that they are doing no harm by marring , knowing that they are gay and not telling their spouse, are fooling themselves. Life is full of difficult choices. Being honest should not be a difficult choice. Look how often we rant and rave about the rentboys who have lied to us about one thing or another. If we are not honest with ourselves how can we demand it of others?