Think for yourself

[Michael Vincenzo]

Anyone who knows me is well aware that I am a strong advocate for animal rights and animal welfare. When advocating for animals, I often find that I provide information by prefacing the facts with "I know this might sound crazy, but". I can no longer make excuses for the ignorance of humans and their displaced and disconnected notions of how well humans treat animals.

 

Has anyone seen the documentary, "Earthlings", narrated by Joaquim Phoenix? A must see!

 

I guess I'm a little ticked off today because once again Ringling Bros. and Barnum & Bailey Circus has been caught abusing the animals in their care (http://www.ringlingbeatsanimals.com/). Most people don't know that Ringling was taken to court earlier this year for alleged violations of the Endangered Species Act; basically for abusing the shit out of elephants. The verdict has yet to be handed down. During the trial, Ringling went on and on about how well they treat their animals yet, once again, they are caught doing exactly what animal rights groups have claimed for many years.

 

I have demonstrated against Ringling for the past two years and all I can say is that the response people have to such a demonstration is pathetically ignorant. Are humans the most intelligent species? NO! We are a species that has the capability of being intelligent, yet most of us use only 15% of that capacity at best.

 

I think we can all agree that we would like to live in a world that is free of suffering and pain, yet not only do most people stand by and watch the suffering, they participate in it because they haven't given any thought to the origins of what is in front of them. Even when most people give it thought, they find it so difficult to think for themselves and allow the "money as their motive" people to think for them (advertising, etc).

 

The best response most humans are capable of when I ask them to watch where their food comes from is, "Oh! I can't look at that!". Yet, you can still eat it and contribute to its demand?!

 

When will humans learn that compassion has no boundaries? I guess that is why we continue to see suffering in all forms (humans, animals, the earth) and scratch our heads.

 

This is probably not the right forum or audience for this rant of mine, but I don't blog, twitter, or tweet; although I do sometimes fart.

 

HAVE A NICE DAY! TRY TO UNTEACH YOURSELF SOME BULLSHIT YOU'VE JUST ACCEPTED BY DEFAULT!

[Guest greatness]

[quote=

I think we can all agree that we would like to live in a world that is free of suffering and pain, yet not only do most people stand by and watch the suffering, they participate in it because they haven't given any thought to the origins of what is in front of them. Even when most people give it thought, they find it so difficult to think for themselves and allow the "money as their motive" people to think for them (advertising, etc).

 

The best response most humans are capable of when I ask them to watch where their food comes from is, "Oh! I can't look at that!". Yet, you can still eat it and contribute to its demand?!

 

When will humans learn that compassion has no boundaries? I guess that is why we continue to see suffering in all forms (humans, animals, the earth) and scratch our heads.

 

This is probably not the right forum or audience for this rant of mine, but I don't blog, twitter, or tweet; although I do sometimes fart.

 

HAVE A NICE DAY! TRY TO UNTEACH YOURSELF SOME BULLSHIT YOU'VE JUST ACCEPTED BY DEFAULT!

 

I agree to your statement. I see people, including myself, abusing our environment and animals for our pleasure and convenience. We simply forget that there is always a consequence for what we do. Luckily, I believe some people are enlightened like you. I don't get plastic bags or paper bags from a grocery store. I either hand carry them or use a cart to carry to my car. One step at a time I think we should become more environment friendly and protect other species on this planet.

[KMEM]

Not to pick on you MV but I don't have much good to say or think about PETA. I, too, am an animal lover. Man has had a long history of using and enjoying animals (and vice versa) whether plowing, riding or simple companionship. Some times being stern with an animal might be compared to "tough love" for a child. Again, I do not condone or appreciate abusing animals and if PETA has solid evidence then shame on RB. Put them in jail and fine the crap out of them.

 

BTW, are you a vegan? If so, don't you know plants scream when they are cut? That kind of leaves us poor humans not much to eat; fruit, berries, nuts and only after they have removed themselves from the parent plant NOT been "picked".

 

Best regards,

KMEM

[zeferrelli]

Someone asked Steven Hawking (the great british astrophysicist) if he thought that there was any intelligent life in outer space? He replied; I doubt it, after all, we haven't discovered it here on Earth yet!

[Michael Vincenzo]

Not to pick on you MV but I don't have much good to say or think about PETA. I, too, am an animal lover. Man has had a long history of using and enjoying animals (and vice versa) whether plowing, riding or simple companionship. Some times being stern with an animal might be compared to "tough love" for a child. Again, I do not condone or appreciate abusing animals and if PETA has solid evidence then shame on RB. Put them in jail and fine the crap out of them.

 

History is not relevant. We owned African Americans as slaves in history. We committed genocide in history. We thought women were inferior in history.

 

Animals should not be forced into entertainment. People get minutes of entertainment (and money is always the motive) for a lifetime of confinement and misery for the animal.

 

 

BTW, are you a vegan? If so, don't you know plants scream when they are cut? That kind of leaves us poor humans not much to eat; fruit, berries, nuts and only after they have removed themselves from the parent plant NOT been "picked".

 

I have been a vegetarian (95% vegan and working towards 100%) for one year and eight months. I've never been healthier. The introduction of mostly meat diets in society has been the cause of disease after disease after disease. The number one thing the American Cancer Society encourages, to reduce your risk of cancer, is to decrease the amount of meat one consumes; imagine if you eliminated meat! Don't even get me started on the links between cancer and dairy products. Pus is in every glass of milk!

 

By the way, plants do not scream. Any being that has no brain, such as all plants and bivalves, cannot "feel" anything. Plants do not have a central nervous system.

 

Also, being a vegetarian does not include eating fish or chicken. Yes, I have had to defend that more than once (especially in Texas!). "Do you have vegetarian options on your menu?" Response: "Waahaay yes! We have feeeesh and cheeicken!"

 

I firmly believe we will look back one day and wonder what the hell we were thinking! Vegetarianism and Veganism is on the rise, but I still think it is a personal choice and do not inflict that on anyone. All I ask is to sit down with your steak dinner and watch how a cow is raised on a factory farm and then slaughtered. Still tasty? Probably wouldn't make anyone feel good to watch it. I can watch a field being harvested while eating and have no negative feelings.

 

Drinking milk? You contribute to the veal industry which is where a baby calf is ripped from its mother as soon as it is born, chained in a stall in a barn with no lights; all this to purposely make it anemic so the veal will be tastier. A dairy cow has a life expectancy of 20 years; on a dairy farm, she lives 4 years top. She is constantly impregnated, babies ripped from her at birth, and then literally milked to death. No other species drinks milk past infancy and none from another species.

 

I could go on and on about relevant issues that are hidden from the public. The multi-billion dollar dairy and meat industries and billion dollar businesses such as zoos and circuses will do everything in their power not to let you see what really goes on. Their motive: MONEY! My motive: awareness and reduction of suffering.

[Guest zipperzone]

I think the capturing of wild animals and training them to do stunts for the amusement of the public is barbaric. Those that train and those that profit from the display should be arrested, put in cages and forced to imitate the same stunts - just to see how much they like it!

 

Those that operate zoos are in the same category. A wild animal belongs in the wild. Period.

[MsGuy]

As to the circus and most zoos, I agree w/ Zipper, those with breeding programs for threatened species excepted.

 

The distinction between humans and other omnivores implicit in the posts here escapes me. Emotionally I can kinda see it, but intellectually it seems entirely artificial. Why is seal flesh ok for polar bears but not for Inuits?

[KMEM]

MsGuy-

 

I didn't notice any post by Lucky on this thread. Is my computer being cranky?

 

MV-

 

You are welcome to your opinion but I don't think many will be followers.

 

Best regards,

KMEM

[MsGuy]

Opps, thought Zipper and typed Lucky. :o Now corrected. My apologies to both. Thanks for the heads-up KMEM.

[Michael Vincenzo]

MsGuy-

 

I didn't notice any post by Lucky on this thread. Is my computer being cranky?

 

MV-

 

You are welcome to your opinion but I don't think many will be followers.

 

Best regards,

KMEM

 

I certainly am not trying to recruit people to think exactly like I do in regard to the relationship between animals and humans; I actually like diversity of opinions and thoughts, especially in a healthy and open-minded debate. I'm always open to new ideas and inspirations from others in order to make up my own mind.

 

I guess I default back to the subject of my post and wish people would begin to think for themselves more often. I believe if we all formed our own opinion, on any subject for that matter, we would find that we are capable of being more creative in problem solving. The older I get, and the more that I question things, I realize that I don't quite agree with what is acceptable or politically correct. Can you imagine how much fun it would be to hear new ideas from different angles regarding any subject? I think we would advance as a society much more rapidly if we didn't take the lazy route of being cookie cutter clones in our thought processes.

 

I have always said that I learn more by unlearning old material than by learning new material. Even certain words have these preconceived boundaries and limitations placed on their definition just because someone taught us those boundaries. It's a very limiting and stifling concept to just accept something because someone says it is so. We really are better than that and to think otherwise would be an insult to our intelligence as a species.

 

Thanks for the healthy dialogue, guys. It's always interesting to hear different viewpoints, on any subject.

[josephga]

I think the capturing of wild animals and training them to do stunts for the amusement of the public is barbaric. Those that train and those that profit from the display should be arrested, put in cages and forced to imitate the same stunts - just to see how much they like it!

 

Those that operate zoos are in the same category. A wild animal belongs in the wild. Period.

 

 

I agree. I saw a lady last year around june at a flea market giving pony rides. I saw very little water. I started too walk over and a friend was saying oh lord he's fixing to go off. I told her that she was a disgrace and that she should get off her lard ass and get a real job instead of abusing animals. I have never been too nor would ever go to a circus either.

[Guest greatness]

yes

 

I agree. The older I get the less I know. I reflect upon all the mistakes I've made in the past too. There are many things you can look from other perspectives as you get older. Life is hard isn't it? But I believe good intentions and hope that we can do better will lead us to a next level. Let's be optimistic and start from there.

 

 

The older I get, and the more that I question things, I realize that I don't quite agree with what is acceptable or politically correct. Can you imagine how much fun it would be to hear new ideas from different angles regarding any subject? I think we would advance as a society much more rapidly if we didn't take the lazy route of being cookie cutter clones in our thought processes.

 

 

Thanks for the healthy dialogue, guys. It's always interesting to hear different viewpoints, on any subject.

[+ Lucky]

Accent on Animals

 

"Response: "Waahaay yes! We have feeeesh and cheeicken!"

 

Odd to note in a thread about abusing animals that one would mock accents. Why did the response you chose to use include this? Couldn't you have just said that the alternatives offered as vegetarian in Texas were fish and chicken?

 

Let's respect animals, sure, but also people with accents.

 

(Now Lucky has posted. Who could ever confuse me with Zipperzone? I am sure that we are both rightly offended!)

[MsGuy]

Who could ever confuse me with Zipperzone? I am sure that we are both rightly offended!)

 

Probably he was the same senile old fart who posted those rants about Sacramento politicians. :o Daddy really ought to be a little more selective about who he lets into the forum.

[Guest]

No other species drinks milk past infancy and none from another species.

[/b]

 

Well, my cats do. But I agree that there is no reason for animals to suffer needlessly. I do buy only milk from free-farmed cows, and eggs from free-range chickens. It is possible to raise animals, even for food, in a life which is less stressful even than what they would experience in nature. It is even possible to kill them in ways which are more humane than ways in which they would die in nature. I applaud efforts to treat farm animals humanely (there was a recent law passed by the people of California in that regard). However, I disagree that it's impossible to raise animals for food in a humane manner.

[Guest zipperzone]

 

(Now Lucky has posted. Who could ever confuse me with Zipperzone? I am sure that we are both rightly offended!)

 

Have I just been slammed? I think I have.....

[Guest zipperzone]

I have never been too nor would ever go to a circus either.

 

You should make one exception - Cirque de Soleil.

[uwsman2]

zoos

 

Some of the newer zoos, or older ones that have adopted new ways, are exceptional in trying to preserve vanishing species and providing suitable habitats for animals that will be stimulating and non-abusive. I think the "Bronx Zoo" has been a leader in this. When I was a kid and used to go to that zoo with my parents, it was actually rather dispiriting as the animals were all in cages and generally looked bored and miserable. Today, they have built enormous habitats simulating the conditions under which these animals would live in the wild, and try to set things up so that the animals will not be bored. (A recent interview published with the new director of the zoo emphasized that point regarding the habitat they have built for large apes - they really try to provide a stimulating environment for these animals which are endangered in the wild.) And the Bronx Zoo, formally known as the NY Wildlife Conservation Society, decided not to exhibit elephants because they concluded that they were unable to provide a truly suitable habitat for them due to issues of size of area and climate available in the Bronx. Now they will only house animals in environments that they believe to be suitably supportive to the animal's natural lifestyle. More zoos are coming around to this point of view.

[seaboy4hire]

Two more zoo's that do a great job that come to mind that teach about preservation is the zoo in Portland and Northwest Trek in the Pierce county area of Washington state. As a kid (in the mid 80's) I thought it was such a treat to go to Northwest Trek because a large portion of the grounds were open to let the animals roam free while people were shuttled through the area were the elk, buffalo and such roamed. I also thought it was human at the pretty big areas that the wild cats had to roam and how the areas that all the animals lived had live native vegetation that they would have in the wild. Portland's zoo sticks out in my mind for their eagle exhibit. I thought that was nice because it gave enough space with natural vegetation for the eagles that could fly to do so. As a matter of fact the zoo I feel made every effort to make sure that what the animals would have in the wild they had in their new homes. Zoo's if done right can be great educational tools and sanctuaries for those critters that might not make it in the wild due to man. As far as circuses no way no how! I have never been to one and I refuse to support an organization that is so outdated and past its prime. And as for eating meat vs being vegetarian that is ones own personal choice and I will do my best to respect that but that respect better be returned when I stab my rare steak and get ready to chow down. I kind of found it funny about the story of being vegetarian in Texas. One of our lesbians had a huge work function to go to in Texas (I forget the city) so she calls the hotel who is hosting and asks about veggie options and our lesbian says the hotel gave her the option of fish or chicken. I thought she was pullin my leg but looks like she isn't the only one who's ran into this situation.

 

Hugs,

Greg

[Michael Vincenzo]

"Response: "Waahaay yes! We have feeeesh and cheeicken!"

 

Odd to note in a thread about abusing animals that one would mock accents. Why did the response you chose to use include this? Couldn't you have just said that the alternatives offered as vegetarian in Texas were fish and chicken?

 

Let's respect animals, sure, but also people with accents.

 

(Now Lucky has posted. Who could ever confuse me with Zipperzone? I am sure that we are both rightly offended!)

 

Hey there! I didn't mean to offend people with accents; I was simply trying to give the full effect of my experience. Sorry, if I did offend anyone.

 

Hell, I grew up in N.C. and my mother has a very southern accent. I love my Mom with all my heart, but I still make fun of her accent. When I first came to FL I had some residual southern twang.

 

In my opinion, a southern accent can make someone sound like an absolute idiot or can be very charming. I guess I make that opinion when I hear the content of someone's dialogue. I, of course, make exceptions when it's a cute little southern twink; then I just want to get him naked.

 

All joking aside, no offense was meant from my post.

[+ Lucky]

Okay, thanks for saying so.

[Michael Vincenzo]

As to the circus and most zoos, I agree w/ Zipper, those with breeding programs for threatened species excepted.

 

The distinction between humans and other omnivores implicit in the posts here escapes me. Emotionally I can kinda see it, but intellectually it seems entirely artificial. Why is seal flesh ok for polar bears but not for Inuits?

 

I really don't think it is a matter of what is right and what is wrong in regard to what people eat. I find there is a huge difference between animals eating other animals and humans eating animals. Most animals raised for meat have been deprived of everything natural to them, raised in very unhealthy environments, fed unnatural diets, and treated inhumanely and abusively....that is all before the slaughter, which is never done humanely (although more humane methods are becoming available / e.g. CAK for chickens). Humans rarely eat the entire animal and often times throw away a good portion of the animal that they do find suitable for consumption; to me it is greedy and excessive and lacks any mindfulness.

 

I think the whole notion of meat eater vs. vegetarian, in regard to humans, is linked to spiritual beliefs, moral beliefs, or health reasons. My opinion is that if a choice is available that would reduce suffering, it would be the choice that I would make. Why are people still wearing fur coats (fur farms are unregulated and very cruel) when faux fur is available? I guess it comes down to, in regard to spiritual beliefs, the idea that one should always reach for the next highest thought or choice.

 

In the end, what the hell do any of us know? I just feel better not contributing the suffering of an animal when a plant based diets avoids that suffering and, in addition, is healthier for the body. It just makes sense to me.

[KMEM]

MV-

 

One good thing about your posts is you seem to know what you want and don't especially seem to be trying to persuade others that your way is the "true" way or the only way. I award you full credit for that. Thanks.

 

General comments: I have a friend who commercially makes hot dogs, among other things. He says he uses everything about the pigs and chickens except the squeal and cluck. Of course, that does not address how they are raised.

 

In aviation, I have discovered that no matter what is done to make a flight completely legal, there is always some other consideration or government agency to think about. I submit this same kind of idea could be true with furs and the like. Faux products often contain oil which brings up the question of pollution or climate change caused by man as some believe. There is no free lunch.

 

As for the zoos and so called "efficient" ways of raising animals, what should we do? Issue a spear at the grocery store entrance and let everyone hunt their own dinner in the wild habitat out back?

 

 

Best regards,

KMEM