Af 447

[KMEM]

Heavens, I imagined Captain KMEM & First Officer BN tooling around in a Piper Cub.

 

 

That could be fun!

 

And, I would invite any others who would like to go for a ride to go to the nearest airport and see what could happen and I personally would like to do whatever I can to provide the same.

 

Best regards,

KMEM

[AdamSmith]

What worries me more is that Boeing's new 787 will have an all-composite fuselage.

 

The fun begins.

 

Production Suspended on Dreamliner Fuselage Part

 

The Boeing Company has hit another snag in building its 787 Dreamliner, one that stock analysts say seems minor but will nevertheless raise more questions about when the plane will be ready for a test flight.

 

Boeing confirmed Friday that it had instructed an Italian company, Alenia Aeronautica, in June to stop making additional fuselage sections for the passenger plane after small wrinkles were found in the carbon composite skin.

 

The order to stop production came the same day Boeing executives announced that the 787’s first flight would be delayed indefinitely to fix a structural flaw where the wings join the fuselage.

 

A spokeswoman, Lori Gunter, said Friday that Boeing had created a patch to fix the wrinkling problem on the mid-fuselage section. She said the company did not disclose the problem in June because it is not expected to affect the plane’s overall cost or production schedule.

 

But stock analysts said the problem will undoubtedly add to the nervousness about whether other flaws will surface with the plane, which is considered crucial to Boeing’s future. Shares of Boeing fell more than 4 percent.

 

The jetliner is supposed to be lighter and more fuel-efficient than other airliners, and Boeing has 850 advance orders. Even though the company said that it has identified a fix for the structural problem involving the wings, it has not announced a new date for the first flight test. The plane is already two years behind its original schedule.

 

Howard A. Rubel, an analyst at Jefferies & Company, said Alenia had a lot of experience in working with the composite materials, and the latest problem sounded “more like a question of sloppiness.”

 

But, he said, “You kind of look at the issues with the plane, and you say, ‘When is this going to stop being a problem?’ ”

 

The problems with the wrinkling on the fuselage skin were first disclosed on Thursday by the FlightBlogger Web site. It quoted the stop-work order that Boeing issued to Alenia on June 23 as saying that the problems could “lead to significant degradation of the structure.”

 

Ms. Gunter, the Boeing spokeswoman, said Friday that the problem could be fixed with external patches, which will have to be applied to the first 23 planes.

 

She also said that while Alenia had not started any new mid-fuselage sections, it was continuing to do other work under its contract.

 

Heidi Wood, an analyst at Morgan Stanley, said that while this sort of glitch was probably common in aircraft development, “it has compounded concerns among some of us that there will still be some production snafus that will be larger.”

 

And the concerns persist largely because Boeing has outsourced much more of the production work on the 787 than on previous planes, to both American and foreign suppliers.

 

“So there’s an awful lot that we still don’t know about where things stand,” Richard Aboulafia, an analysts with the Teal Group, said.

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/15/business/15boeing.html?_r=1&hpw

[KMEM]

Where are all the folks who think and say Boeing is the best? I mean here on the MB.

 

Boeing has made in the past and no doubt will make some superior products in the future. As stated in the above account and others, it is being criticized (severely) for outsourcing. I am sure that Boeing thought world wide pariticipation is the wave of the future. Maybe so, but this project has hit a major snag, to say the least.

 

The technology doesn't seem so cutting edge; just the vendors are having trouble meeting specifications. This is not the first time I have observed this kind of difficulty but it does seem to be more wide spread than usual, perhaps because of non-US vendors.

 

When FEDEX was buying 727's from most every airline company in the world back in the 1980's, they had contracts with the Hayes Company to install the cargo door and other necessary mods to make the aircraft suitable for their use. Hayes came up to speed rather quickly but could not keep pace with the demand for delivery. So, they sub-contracted with Lookheed in St. Augustine, FL and with Dee Howard in San Antonio. Both of those vendors produced "terrible" products at first. The doors wouldn't close properly, they leaked water on the ground and several other problems. But, in a short while, their products were just as good as Hayes and every thing worked out OK, but not without delays and headaches.

 

Even though Boeing is having substantial delays in production of the 787 and other headaches, I have every confidence they will produce this aircraft and it will be a good one. I like Boeing and the US FAA system (with all of its' faults). If Boeing wants to invite me to ride on it first, I will do so.

 

Best regards,

KMEM

[MsGuy]

If Boeing wants to invite me to ride on it first, I will do so.

Best regards,

KMEM

 

And I think I will wait a while. Some design/build flaws take a few years to show up.

[KMEM]

And I think I will wait a while. Some design/build flaws take a few years to show up.

 

And some take many years to show up; however, I don't think either one of us will be offered a ride on the 787 any time soon, so don't lie awake at night thinking about it.

 

Shift of point or emphasis: I think it is nice to have things planned well into the future, regardless on one's age, etc. What I am thinking of here is George Burns was booked to play the Pladium at age 100. He almost made it but I think he and a lot of folks had fun thinking about it from time to time.

 

Best regards,

 

KMEM

[+ glutes]

Where are all the folks who think and say Boeing is the best? I mean here on the MB.

Best regards,

KMEM

 

Oh no Capt. KMEM, you are the one saying a yellow-haired harlot and the Airbus A330 are the best!

I brought up the thread "Will It Ever Fly" about the 787, after Boeing hoodwinked everyone during the Paris Airshow that the 787 would do a flight test 2 weeks after the show.

Horsepucky!

Will it ever fly??

 

By PETER SANDERS / WSJ

 

On June 23, Boeing Co. executives confronted two problems with the much-anticipated but troubled 787 Dreamliner jet development program. One, involving problems where the plane's wings join the body, Boeing announced, drawing world-wide attention. The other, involving a problem on the 787's composite fuselage, the company kept silent about.

 

When news of the second problem surfaced late Thursday on an Internet blog that follows the aviation industry, it raised new questions about Boeing's public disclosure policies on the 787 program, which is the Chicago-based aerospace giant's most important development project.

 

Boeing on Thursday night confirmed that it had ordered some work stopped in late June at an Italian factory. Weaknesses identified on two areas of the fuselage barrels produced at the factory could cause significant damage if they weren't repaired, the company found.

 

Boeing and its Italian subcontractor, Finmeccanica SpA's Alenia Aeronautica, said the problem is relatively minor, and a fix is already under way. "This has in no way affected the Dreamliner's first flight or the plane's production time or costs," Giovanni Bertolone, Alenia Aeronautica's chief executive, said in an interview Friday.

 

Boeing officials say they have followed the legal and financial requirements for disclosing information about the 787 program. Lori Gunter, a Boeing spokeswoman, defended the company's decision not to announce the fuselage problem in June. "This is fairly normal for a new development program. These issues come up and we deal with them and move on," she said.

 

A person familiar with Boeing's operations said stoppage orders like the one that occurred at the Italian plant happen often and usually involve minor matters.

 

They represent "a daily, common occurrence at major companies," this person said. But the Italian situation "was not a safety issue [and] not a flight issue," making prompt disclosure unnecessary.

 

Boeing's stock price has been sensitive to developments in the 787 program. On Friday, Boeing shares fell $1.75, or 3.8%, to $44.87 in 4 p.m. composite trading on the New York Stock Exchange.

 

Nearly two years of delays on the Dreamliner program have put investors and customers on high alert.

 

A week before Boeing disclosed in June that it was again delaying flight tests and 787 deliveries, Boeing executives said at the Paris Air Show that the plane was on track to make its maiden flight by end of June.

 

In the weeks following, including on the company's July 22 quarterly earnings call, the company made no mention of the Alenia factory problem.

[KMEM]

glutes-

 

Sorry, but you are mistaken. I think you only read the posts you want to read and very little else. I never said the Airbus was even superior, never mind the best.

 

Nonetheless,

 

Best regards,

KMEM

[KMEM]

I am no defender of the Airbus. In fact, the whole way foreign manufacturers and airlines are subsidized vs. the US is another story. However, the Yemen crash could have been any brand of airliner, it just so happened to be an Airbus. Ditto NW27.

 

 

Best regards,

KMEM

 

Here is an earlier quote in this same thread, from me.

 

Best regards,

KMEM

[KMEM]

To clear up a misconception listed on another thread, I am a big supporter of US products. I have always liked Boeing and McDonald-Douglas when they were around. Lockheed and Fairchild and others have also had their good economic days as well as making superior aircraft. I am not a big fan of foreign aircraft and that includes Airbus, but fair is fair and whatever happened, good or bad will be reported and, likely, accepted by me. I still would ride on a US airline today on an Airbus. Should I ask if their pitot tubes have been changed? No, but I would do my usual due diligence and look at the weather, etc.

 

Best regards,

KMEM

 

Another post on this same thread.

 

Best regards,

KMEM

[AdamSmith]

Even though Boeing is having substantial delays in production of the 787 and other headaches, I have every confidence they will produce this aircraft and it will be a good one. I like Boeing and the US FAA system (with all of its' faults). If Boeing wants to invite me to ride on it first, I will do so.

 

My anxieties are not over Boeing's switch to a mostly-outsourced model of production, nor their difficulties in managing this new production system in its first application. Switch was arguably necessary, clearly offers many benefits once it gets working properly.

 

What frets me are, specifically, the remaining unknowns in composites engineering and even their basic science. I have talked with too many materials scientists who worry that the properties of some composites substrates, and their fabrication, bonding, fatigue life, and delamination modes, have not been nearly as fully and confidently characterized as many engineers wish to believe.

 

I also know a couple of people who develop software specifically for designing and fabricating composite components and structures. Likewise, one of their biggest worries is that third-party materials-properties databases from which their software draws data are of too low fidelity to be used in the way some of their customers are doing.

 

As I said early in this thread, I have no higher regard for anyone on earth than some of the Boeing engineers I know. Nonetheless, cultural problems can creep in most anywhere (this is far from comparable; nonetheless -- can you say "O-rings"?). Given all the engineering and fabrication challenges already inherent in what Boeing is trying to do with the 787, the mounting schedule pressures are a worrying thing to see added to the mix.

[KMEM]

AS-

 

I don't disagree with your stated worries. However, we still don't know all there is to know about aluminum or magnesium which we have using for many, many years.

 

You are welcome to consult with your engineers and report further opinions. I can only go by what has transpired in the market place. I am not an engineer.

 

My opinion is that Boeing is not plowing completely new ground on each and every piece of this aircraft. There have been any number of smaller aircraft built of various products that have provided a lot of experience. Building composite parts and then autoclaving them seems well understood. The FAA gave Beechcraft, now Hawker Beechcraft, a tremendous amount of grief that ultimately led to the economic failure of the Star Ship. This is/was a totally composite aircraft. The FAA wanted multiple pathways built into it for static electricity dissipation which turned out to not be necessary but caused a large increase in production cost and an over weight aircraft that could no longer meet promised performance. This was just one of the things the FAA required for this "new" process aircraft. Many customers loved this aircraft but Beech did not. They tried to buy all of them back and largely succeeded with the threat of non-support in the future. But, there are still several of these out there and they are not for sale. One day, they will run out of parts.

 

Yes, Boeing will have some unforeseen problems and already has. But, while annoying or possibly fear provoking, now is the best time to discover and fix these.

 

Except for avionics, most present day aircraft are produced and maintained using 1940's technology. Silly, isn't it?

 

Best regards,

KMEM

[MsGuy]

Except for avionics, most present day aircraft are produced and maintained using 1940's technology. Silly, isn't it?

 

Best regards,

KMEM

 

Mebbe so and mebbe not. I'm still gonna wait a while & see whether that new fangled stuff comes apart in mid-air. And, speaking of O-rings, aint they still having problems with those ceramic tile thing-a-ma-jigs?

[KMEM]

What is the name of your favorite horse?

 

Best regards,

KMEM

[AdamSmith]

those ceramic tile thing-a-ma-jigs?

 

One critic famously referred to the Space Shuttle as a "flying Ming vase."

 

Another noted that passengers in the unsophisticated, practically Iron-Age Soyuz capsules have emerged bruised but alive from reentry errors that would have obliterated the Shuttle.

[AdamSmith]

What is the name of your favorite horse?

 

Arthur Clarke once observed that if you can't get there on either an airplane or a horse, you probably don't need to go there.

[AdamSmith]

Yes, Boeing will have some unforeseen problems and already has. But, while annoying or possibly fear provoking, now is the best time to discover and fix these.

 

Fervently agree. Nor do I mean to be such a Luddite about introducing new technologies (or new production methods) into aircraft manufacture. I just cannot shake the feeling that some O-ring-type misjudgments are getting more and more likely to emerge from this experiment to put all-composites into mass production, on what's become a compressed timescale, in a more-dispersed-than-ever manufacturing process. If Boeing were doing it mostly in-house, and in a pilot program rather than this make-or-break-the-company venture, it would be less nervous-making.

 

And I see little way to avoid flying these first beasties once they start getting delivered.

[MsGuy]

I suspect the guys in charge of Russian aerospace design operate on the assumption that somewhere down the line somebody is going to be doing something critical while blind drunk. They tend to err on the side of simple and sturdy.

 

Yall please quit posting this stuff about all-composite planes. AdamSmith's last bit set off every single one of my techno-phobias. :o

[KMEM]

Fervently agree. Nor do I mean to be such a Luddite about introducing new technologies (or new production methods) into aircraft manufacture. I just cannot shake the feeling that some O-ring-type misjudgments are getting more and more likely to emerge from this experiment to put all-composites into mass production, on what's become a compressed timescale, in a more-dispersed-than-ever manufacturing process. If Boeing were doing it mostly in-house, and in a pilot program rather than this make-or-break-the-company venture, it would be less nervous-making.

 

And I see little way to avoid flying these first beasties once they start getting delivered.

 

This will not be the first time that Boeing has "bet the farm" on the success of a new aircraft. However, this seems to be the first time they had so little control over the process. If they go under, it likely will be from management decisions rather than engineering ones.

 

Best regards,

KMEM

[+ glutes]

3rd A-330 down...

 

Unfortunately, I think the media is paying just a little too much attention to the investigations. What we should be doing is being patient and waiting for the considered results of the investigations. There is entirely too much CYA going on right now to make any reasonable determinations. Basically one could choose to not fly 330's or Airbuses in general but there is no preponderance of evidence to support that idea right now.

 

Old saying: If it ain't Boeing, I ain't going.

 

Best regards,

KMEM

 

There is more evidence now. How is your patience doing?

 

May 13 (Bloomberg) -- Airbus SAS accident investigators arrived in Libya to help probe yesterday’s crash of an A330 aircraft that killed all but one of the 104 people on board.

 

The five experts will visit the scene of the impact in Tripoli and examine the plane’s “black-box” voice and flight- data recorders, which have been recovered from the wreckage, Airbus spokesman Stefan Schaffrath said today in an interview.

 

The Afriqiyah Airways jetliner came down short of the runway at about 6 a.m. yesterday while making its final approach following a flight from Johannesburg. Schaffrath said it’s too early to say what caused the accident, the second involving an A330-200 in 12 months after an Air France plane crashed in June.

 

http://www.businessweek.com/news/2010-05-13/airbus-experts-join-probe-into-libyan-air-crash-that-killed-103.html

[KMEM]

Well, gloats, my patience is holding out pretty well. If you read my post you will perhaps notice that I am a Boeing advocate.

 

Likely this accident in Tripoli will show pilot error but I have never advocated flying on many "foreign" carriers. What do you recommend?

 

Personally, I would just as soon never ride on an airliner again but it has little to do with "safety" and mostly to do with the TSA and their ilk. Perhaps you like being questioned and investigated by the authorities?

 

Best regards,

KMEM

[+ glutes]

Another Airbus down:

 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jul/28/pakistan-plane-crash-islamabad-airbus

[Steven_Draker]

Dusseldorf

 

... I have never advocated flying on many "foreign" carriers. What do you recommend?

 

What about this? Check this out:

[KMEM]

Not sure what comment you are seeking. I have no idea about any of it beyond the "caption". He could have a stomach virus, food poisoning, etc. or he could be "hung over". How can we know from this?

 

Do you know more than what is presented?

 

Best regards,

KMEM

[Steven_Draker]

Not sure what comment you are seeking.

 

A tongue-in-cheek comment.

 

But I realize, I should've started a new thread.

[KMEM]

A tongue-in-cheek comment.

 

But I realize, I should've started a new thread.[/color]

 

I am all for tongue in cheek (and elsewhere). Thanks for the explanation. Drinking, fortunately, is not a big problem for pilots but it is a serious one for the few that it affects. The FAA frowns mightily upon same, as it should.

 

Best regards,

KMEM