TMBG, Jizzhead et al, these hustlers are prey, you are predators

[guyinsf]

RE: TMBG, Jizzhead et al

 

One of your comments posted above is an example of what I was thinking about. It's one thing to continue the original argument and "take a stand." It's another thing to venture into territory like, and I paraphrase, "You're an old troll and can't get it any other way."

 

As someone who has never met you, how do I know what you mean by that? Do you think that all of your clients are pathetic? Disgusting? Unable to have sex with anyone except by paying for it? Or were you just making a slam against the originator of this whole discussion?

 

I'll tell you how it came across to me: You think very poorly of clients generally, except the ones who hire you who happen to be young and hot. Now this may be entirely untrue, but what you posted gives me that strong impression. If you don't want an overweight client or a client who is in his 40's or beyond to avoid hiring you because he assumes he will be met with attitude and/or disdain, then you might want to more carefully choose the words you use here. I'm not trying to silence anyone or tell you what opinion you should have (though, of course, like others here I have been trying to contribute my point of view and back it up with logical arguments); I'm just pointing out that name calling and disparaging comments by escorts here seem reckless to me, unless that escort really wants to convey that kind of image.

[Guest bmore guy]

RE: TMBG, Jizzhead et al,

 

If you read my quote, I put "whore" and "slut" in quotation marks and then say there is no room for name calling. I was pointing out that escorts had been open for negative labeling and not getting personal.

 

I have one question-if I pay a nineteen year old $250+ does that mean I am no longer a "chickenhawk" but a respectable "client".

[phage]

RE: TMBG, Jizzhead et al,

 

>I have one question-if I pay a nineteen year old $250+ does

>that mean I am no longer a "chickenhawk" but a respectable

>"client".

 

You’re kind of missing one of the central points that virtually everyone who has dared to question (or attack) this practice has made. That it is the exploitation of street kids that makes it predatory. It’s a hypothetical, but if you’re paying the kid that much money, I doubt your picking him up off the street.

 

When I first used the term “chicken hawk” in another thread, I had no idea it was going to hit such a nerve. I certainly didn’t mean it as a compliment, but I also didn’t mean it as euphemism for child molester. I still don’t believe that is what it means in spite of some claims that that is the only interpretation.

 

You also make an assumption that there is such a thing as a “respectable” client. It’s just my opinion of course, but none of us are respectable in this regard – it’s just a matter of degrees. Most of us are probably respectable in the other aspects of our lives, but an honest person would have to admit that there is nothing respectable about hiring someone for sex. Granted, there are worse things we could be doing, but this particular aspect of our lives is hardly worthy of “respect.” (If it were, we’d all be talking about it at work, telling our friends, etc.)

 

In another thread on another day, I said that by not hiring desperate street kids “at least I do no harm.” Well, that’s a crock and if tmbg were better at this, he would have pointed out the error in that logic instead of a useless response about being “high and mighty.” The fact is, I just do less harm.

 

I still use my economic resources to obtain sexual satisfaction from men I desire. I do this knowing that not all of them are emotionally equipped for it and may suffer harm. I guess that would make me a “man hawk” or a “stud hawk” or something like that.

 

Does this negate the fact that I believe it is more likely to cause more harm to a very young guy? No. Do I still believe that it is worse to take advantage of someone when they are down? Yes

[Flower]

RE: TMBG, Jizzhead et al,

 

I REPEAT, IT'S NOT ABOUT MONEY IT'S ABOUT POWER

 

>If you read my quote, I put "whore" and "slut" in quotation

>marks and then say there is no room for name calling. I was

>pointing out that escorts had been open for negative

>labeling and not getting personal.

>

 

Well then, I incorrectly interpretted your comments and apologize. I feel better about what you said now

 

>I have one question-if I pay a nineteen year old $250+ does

>that mean I am no longer a "chickenhawk" but a respectable

>"client".

 

You could pay $1,000 and it still COULD be exploitation or you MIGHT pay $40 and it not be! Read beyond the last threat--it's about power and an uneven playing field, but I won't repeat it all here. But the determination as to what is exploitation depends on why the kid is selling himself. That is sometimes hard to determine, but with a down and out homeless and hungry kid, not so hard!!

 

Flower :*

[FrancoDiSantisxxx]

The Impacts Are Evident

 

>>I can make the choices that I make, with intelligence, a

>>clear concious and an awareness of the consequences. No all

>>of us can say that.

>

>Why? Because of your superior intellect?

>>

>>Finally, the age issue is a non-starter. Chris Sullivan is

>>a good friend of mine, he is 21. He enjoys having sex with

>>older men and he enjoys having sex with younger men. He

>>enjoys getting paid for it and he enjoys sex period

>

>And this impacts upon this discussion, how?

>

>Thunderbuns

 

1. Allan Bloom was correct in commenting that reading skills are not what they used to be.

2. As has also been indicated over the last two decades, analytical skills have also greatly lessened over the

past few generations.

3. Individuals can and do fixate and take something out of context in order to attack the message

by attacking the messenger. Such an attack does not make the attacker either correct nor refutes the original message.

Merely it points out that the attack lacks the logic to make a point factually or intellectually.

4. My posts stand for themselves. I also thank you for your appreciation of my intellectual abilities.

5. Whether or not I am a high priced well paid hooker has little impact on the merits of this discussion or the points being

made herein. All it does is question both my integrity and attempt to demean and belittle my argument in a baseless and

pointless manner. I invite you to read my most recent post in a different but related thread entitled "When Word People

Say." If you need me to e-mail it to you, kindly advise.

[FrancoDiSantisxxx]

Sir Yes Daddy Jeff SIR!!!!

 

Those of us born in another country -- albeit one in Western Europe -- are not only embarrassed and ashamed at our career choices that we need to lie about our most intimate details, but we clearly also need a better spell-check program, no?

[FrancoDiSantisxxx]

keep HER out of this

 

What with Ariel and Yassar in a pissing contest over who has the bigger penis, she has enough problems.

 

I would simply smile, extend a warm but firm handshake and say, "Would you truly like to experience my vise-like grip?"

 

:7

 

I rely on the kindness of strangers and the pity of friends.

[Guest jeffOH]

RE: Sir Yes Daddy Jeff SIR!!!!

 

RE: Sir Yes Daddy Jeff SIR!!!!

 

I like a man who shows respect, but I think I'd like to be saying,

"Yes Sir, Daddy Franco"!}>

 

JEFF

[email protected]

[Guest regulation]

RE: TMBG, Jizzhead et al,

 

>Is it your advanced age that gives you the feeling of

>superiority or is it just that you KNOW you are so much more

>intelligent than the rest of us?

 

Believe me, in my view calling me more intelligent than many of the people who post here is not much of a compliment.

 

>Glad to hear that I have SOME use.

 

Please be in no doubt about it.

 

>>Where else could I find people who insult someone for protesting

>>the exploitation of street kids or who applaud a man for

>>cheating on his wife?

>

>Confusion does reign. I never insulted anyone for protesting

>the exploitation of street kids.

 

So when you called Rod a "dumb fuck" that was meant as an accolade? I see.

 

>My whole point was that I

>did not believe Richie exploited the kid. I still feel that

>$80 an hour does not suck as a going wage.

 

But you seem unable to comprehend that the kid ISN'T getting "$80 an hour." He is getting $80 for the hour he actually spends with the client. What does he get for all of the hours he spends standing on the street waiting for a client?

 

>Nor did I ever applaud a man for cheating on his wife. If

>you were half as good as you think you are at "researching"

>previous posts, this would have been evident to you.

>Frankly, your smugness is an endless source of amusement for

>me!

 

I never said YOU applauded the cheaters. I said "people" did. The quote is pasted above. If you knew how to read this would have been evident to you. Don't they teach you folks reading up there in Canada?

[+ deej]

RE: The Manchurian Candidate

 

>That is a good show. That and Great Blunders in Histoy are

>the only two programs I'll stop to watch. Oh, and Mystery

>Science Theater. Speaking of West Wing, I saw a humorous

>episode recently where one of the staff, Josh I believe,

>started posting on a message board in response to perceived

>fallacies regarding some policy or another. Once engaged, he

>couldn't get out. He became addicted to the cat n' mouse

>nature of the forums.

 

And there was Hell to pay when CJ found out what he'd been up to.

 

That was actually a pretty cool show. The character learned (or we'd like to think he did) that you can't win an argument on the internet.

 

Around here, we have Regulation to remind us of that. No matter how reasoned your argument, he'll keep coming back with a slightly twisted version of the logic solely for the purpose of keeping the argument going.

 

He just can't not have the last word. And that's allowed, as long as everyone recognizes it as that.

 

The danger (and this is something I think the TV show showed well) is letting people think the loudmouth actually knows something.

[Guest Thunderbuns]

RE: The Impacts Are Evident

 

>I also thank you for your

>appreciation of my intellectual abilities.

>5. Whether or not I am a high priced well paid hooker has

>little impact on the merits of this discussion or

>the points being

> made herein.

 

Have you and Regulation ever considered getting married (to each other)? To bad polygamy has been outlawed. You could both link up with Rod Hagan and have your little daisy chain tell hell freezes over.

 

 

>I invite you to read my most recent post

>in a different but related thread entitled "When Word People

> Say." If you need me to e-mail it to you, kindly advise.

 

Spare me! When I want to read garbage, I pick up a copy of the National Enquirer and the supermarket.

 

Thunderbuns

[Guest Thunderbuns]

RE: TMBG, Jizzhead et al,

 

>So when you called Rod a "dumb fuck" that was meant as an

>accolade? I see.

 

Well actually you don't see. It was certainly not meant as an accolade(my such big words) I was just talkin' dirty to him. You KNOW how much he loves that!

 

>

>I never said YOU applauded the cheaters. I said "people"

>did.

 

Well as you were in one of your lambasting moods how else could I take it?

 

>Don't they teach you

>folks reading up there in Canada?

 

Oh no - we only are taught how to fuck Eskimos and 18 year old street urchins. Read? who the hell needs to know that. After all, one of your own countrymen managed to reach the heights of President, without any English skills at all.

 

Thunderbuns

[FrancoDiSantisxxx]

Regulation

 

>>I also thank you for your

>>appreciation of my intellectual abilities.

>>5. Whether or not I am a high priced well paid hooker has

>>little impact on the merits of this discussion or

>>the points being

>> made herein.

>

>Have you and Regulation ever considered getting married (to

>each other)? To bad polygamy has been outlawed. You could

>both link up with Rod Hagan and have your little daisy chain

>tell hell freezes over.

>

 

Well, if Regulation's post are worthy of your contempt, perhaps I should "parse" them more carefully in the future.

Is he married? Because I am certainly not.

 

I do believe Mr. Hagen does have a partner and I am fairly certain, but will not pretend to speak for him, that I am not

his "type." However, any man who can tell me the difference between "tell" and "till" is mine.

 

>

>>I invite you to read my most recent post

>>in a different but related thread entitled "When Word People

>> Say." If you need me to e-mail it to you, kindly advise.

>

>Spare me! When I want to read garbage, I pick up a copy of

>the National Enquirer and the supermarket.

>

>Thunderbuns

 

On the other hand, if you can actually "pick up" the supermarket, I would love the opportunity to sell tickets to

the public to such an event. The proceeds can then go to the Jeffrey Griffith Youth Center here in LA.

[Guest Thunderbuns]

RE: Regulation

 

> On the other hand, if you can actually "pick up" the

>supermarket, I would love the opportunity to sell tickets to

> the public to such an event. The proceeds can then go to

>the Jeffrey Griffith Youth Center here in LA.

 

My, my honey - you are just SO clever! Imagine being able to pick up on typos just like that. Perhaps we should hire you on a contract basis - and before you get too excited, I don't mean for fuckin' - but you could be the typo police. And take a few lessons from LA's own dethroned Mr. Gates

 

Have a wonderful day in your new profession!

 

Thunderbuns

[Guest]

RE: TMBG, Jizzhead et al, these hustlers are prey,

 

>

>Wrong, you dumb motherfucker. The hustler is going to put

>that $40 toward his $55/night hotel room.

 

Someone ought to tell that guy to check out http://www.hotwire.com. You can get nice hotel rooms for a lot less than that!

[Guest regulation]

RE: TMBG, Jizzhead et al,

 

>>So when you called Rod a "dumb fuck" that was meant as an

>>accolade? I see.

>

>Well actually you don't see. It was certainly not meant as

>an accolade(my such big words) I was just talkin' dirty to

>him. You KNOW how much he loves that!

 

No, you were just throwing a cheap insult at him because you find that easier than having a serious conversation about what is unquestionably a serious issue. You seem to do that a lot.

 

>>I never said YOU applauded the cheaters. I said "people"

>>did.

>

>Well as you were in one of your lambasting moods how else

>could I take it?

 

I don't really care how you take it. I care that you don't tell lies about what I wrote. So when you do, I'll correct the record as I'm doing now.

 

>Oh no - we only are taught how to fuck Eskimos and 18 year

>old street urchins. Read? who the hell needs to know that.

 

A word to the wise -- if you were planning to make a living as a comedian, don't quit your day job.

[Guest regulation]

RE: TMBG, Jizzhead et al,

 

>If whore just meant sex worker that would be one thing, but

>it has for a long time been encumbered with a lot of

>christian-judaic baggage and has definitely become a

>pejorative term taking on a much broader and more

>derogative meaning--sometimes not even associated with the

>selling of sex. So, are all escorts "whores" -- NOPE -- I've

>only met a very very few in many years of being a

>"whoremonger:

 

 

We've had a long discussion about euphemisms like "escort" elsewhere on this message board. Suffice it to say that some of us don't like being told that we must use a word like "escort" that doesn't really describe the actions of the person to whom it refers. That and other euphemisms are not intended to communicate, which is supposed to be the purpose of words, but to obfuscate and distract. That's why some of us don't like them. Prostitutes and whores sell sex. No matter how much they or you might like to pretend it's really about something else, like giving restaurant recommendations to well-heeled out-of-town visitors, it's about selling their bodies. If that makes you so uncomfortable that you must pretend it's about something else, go ahead and pretend. But don't expect the rest of us to join in your fantasy.

 

 

 

So escorts, hold your head a little

>higher, wouldja? And btw, SD4hire, I don't consider myself

>a "troll" either LOL. We all have our own reasons for

>buying sex and companionship--whether it's convenience or

>'cause we can get hotter guys with $$ -- we all have our own

>reasons, and calling us trolls is just stooping to bmore's

>level and you're better than that

>

>Escorts provide a great service that clients use for all

>sorts of reasons, but clients only degrade themselves and

>not the escort when they angrily yell "whore" at the escort

>who has the audacity to say something they disagree

>with--especially on this board--kinda stupid if you ask me (

>I know, no one did )--sorta like shooting yourself in the

>foot! :+

>

>

>

>Flower :*

[Guest Thunderbuns]

RE: TMBG, Jizzhead et al,

 

>No, you were just throwing a cheap insult at him because you

>find that easier than having a serious conversation about

>what is unquestionably a serious issue. You seem to do that

>a lot.

 

Do I now? Well maybe the reason people do that on this board is because there are a few self-styled guru's, such as yourself, that although they pretend to present a facade of reason, in actual fact, feel that their's are the only valid opinions presented.

 

And although I may throw the odd one from time to time, I'd say that my offense rate is WAY below others on this board - many of which actually think that we should hire them for their sexual services. Perhaps a course in customer relations 101 would be in order for them.

 

>I don't really care how you take it. I care that you don't

>tell lies about what I wrote.

 

Then perhaps you should learn to me less ambiguous in what you post, oh hallowed one.

 

>So when you do, I'll correct the record as I'm doing now.

 

You should add - "The record as I see it" It might be quite different from how others see it.

 

>>Oh no - we only are taught how to fuck Eskimos and 18 year

>>old street urchins. Read? who the hell needs to know that.

 

>A word to the wise -- if you were planning to make a living

>as a comedian, don't quit your day job.

 

Actually I don't have a day job. Comes from having a trust fund.

 

Thunderbuns

[Guest Joey Ciccone]

RE: TMBG, Jizzhead et al,

 

>You also make an assumption that there is such a thing as a “respectable” client... Most of us are probably respectable in the other aspects of our lives, but an honest person would have to admit that there is nothing respectable about hiring someone for sex.<

 

I think you describe an honest person with low self esteem. But I also think that respect is so subjective that it's hard to apply to sex. I mean, based on long standing taboos, it would seem that there's nothing "respectable" about sex, period. In my own opinion it's more of a base instinct. An act no more worthy of respect than eating or a good crap (although a lot more fun). I think an honest person would most likely admit that he's not ready to tell the world of his sexual proclivities, and not because he personally feels it makes him less than respectable, but because an honest look at society tells him that others aren't ready for his inhibition-free lifestyle. An honest person doesn't often chat about how much he enjoys a fine crap either.

 

Unfortunately, I think respect is tied up with fear in regards to gay sex for pay. People are more afraid of losing respect than of any possible demeaning aspects of the sexual act itself. And the loss of respect comes less from the fact that it was sex for money, and more from the misconception that only lonely desperate people have to pay for sex (which is absolute bullshit). So they'll commit the act and keep quiet about it, convinced of what others will think, perpetuating the "forbiddeness" of it. But I believe that if everyone talked more openly about their sexual endeavers, and did so with pride, sexual encounters and the discussion of them would soon become "respectable" in the minds of all. Until then, those who like to play will just have to do so in their own moral universe where hiring escorts is always the right thing to do, even if it can't be discussed outside of that universe.

 

>Granted, there are worse things we could be doing, but this particular aspect of our lives is hardly worthy of “respect.” (If it were, we’d all be talking about it at work, telling our friends, etc)<

 

How openly some things are discussed is no gauge of true respectability. In a predominantly hetero workplace, for instance, how often do you really hear a guy telling his co-workers how hard he fucked his wife last night, or that his girlfriend loves it in the butt? That kind of info may be shared with a close friend or two in private, but is rarely water-cooler gossip. And I don't think that has anything to do with respect per-say. It's just "improper" in mixed company. In that regard, it's Emily fucking Post who dictates respectability, and what the hell does she know about gay sex?

 

It's silly to think that there's a respectability gap between straight sex for free and gay sex for pay. In the end it's all just sex. I don't believe that the events leading up to any consensual sexual encounter (be it courtship or a flash of cash), nor the gender of the parties involved, can taint the actual experience with "respect" or not. It's all human behaviour. Sadly, it's how society views it that determines it's perceived respectability. If a person is willing to disregard the misperceptions of the repressed and unenlightened people he comes in contact with, he can acheive a state self respectable harmony - and fuck all the hookers he wants - guilt free.

[FrancoDiSantisxxx]

Professional Help

 

>Have a wonderful day in your new profession!

>

>Thunderbuns

 

 

I am actually quite content in my own job. You, on the other hand, apparently need the professional help you are requesting. Apparently, in spite of your comments to the contrary, you have yet to take Mr. Hart's advice to heart.

 

If you speak the truth, being clever is neither here nor there, is it not?

 

Have a great day, in or out!!!

 

:-)

[Guest regulation]

RE: TMBG, Jizzhead et al,

 

>Do I now? Well maybe the reason people do that on this

>board is because there are a few self-styled guru's, such as

>yourself, that although they pretend to present a facade of

>reason, in actual fact, feel that their's are the only valid

>opinions presented.

 

Your statement makes no sense at all. I don't see how my feelings about the validity of my opinions would prevent you from making serious arguments on serious issues, rather than hurling cheap insults like "dumb fuck." No one is making you do that except you, and to try to shift responsibility for your choices to me is incredibly childish.

 

>And although I may throw the odd one from time to time, I'd

>say that my offense rate is WAY below others on this board -

>many of which actually think that we should hire them for

>their sexual services. Perhaps a course in customer

>relations 101 would be in order for them.

 

So what if others are nastier than you? Why does what they do have any impact on what you do?

 

>Then perhaps you should learn to me less ambiguous in what

>you post, oh hallowed one.

 

Saying that I made an accusation against you when I didn't has nothing to do with ambiguity. It has to do with your propensity for taking cheap shots rather than making serious arguments.

 

>Actually I don't have a day job. Comes from having a trust

>fund.

 

Please spare us the usual message board game in which a poster tells us how superior his circumstances are as a substitute for making real points on the issue under discussion. We've all seen that too many times.

[phage]

RE: TMBG, Jizzhead et al,

 

I understand what you are saying and it’s an interesting point of view. I will admit that I’m still thinking it through. A couple of points though:

 

>I think you describe an honest person with low self esteem.

 

Not really – at least in my case. I probably have above average self-esteem. I’m confident about the way I live my life and the standards that I have. I think that is why I can look at this particular aspect and see it as a shortcoming, not worthy of respect, without damaging my overall sense of worth. If I take myself out of the equation and think about how I would view others, if I weren’t doing it myself, it would be far from flattering.

 

>And the loss of respect comes less

>from the fact that it was sex for money, and more from the

>misconception that only lonely desperate people have to pay

>for sex (which is absolute bullshit).

 

This certainly plays a part. I think of someone like Traveller, whom I have no reason to doubt is a young bohemian who does this because he’s got plenty of cash, likes big dicks and it’s a laugh. That makes me smile, but even he is not “respectable” in this particular aspect of his life. (He’s just having so much damn fun that it hardly matters.)

 

I do it because I like men who, due to a natural pecking order that is even more rigid in gay society, are out of my league. I could certainly date and have sex with men in my peer group – in regards to both age and looks – but I regularly make the more shallow choice to “obtain” a beautiful hard body. It’s not like I think it is condemnable and I should be branded and cast out of polite society, but it is hardly a choice worthy of respect.

 

>Until then, those who like to play will just

>have to do so in their own moral universe where hiring

>escorts is always the right thing to do, even if it can't be

>discussed outside of that universe.

 

I think that’s where you might be wrong. Morality does not exist in your own private universe -- it is a function of the society we live in. I think “respect” is much the same. You can retain your self-respect through most anything, but being “respectable” as in “the respect of others” is more determined by what your community finds admirable. Even the gay community, by and large, does not find our behavior admirable. I’m obviously okay with that, but let’s not sugarcoat it.

 

>It's silly to think that there's a respectability gap

>between straight sex for free and gay sex for pay.

 

You’re comparing two unlike things – free straight sex and paid gay sex. It’s not really about gay or straight. I don’t know any straight men that broadcast their use of prostitutes, and I believe it is for the same reasons.

 

>Sadly, it's how society views

>it that determines it's perceived respectability. If a

>person is willing to disregard the misperceptions of the

>repressed and unenlightened people he comes in contact with,

>he can acheive a state self respectable harmony - and fuck

>all the hookers he wants - guilt free.

 

I obviously agree with you about society’s perception of respectability, but one of us is confusing self-respect with being respectable. Maybe it’s me. Maybe most people consider them one and the same.

[Guest Joey Ciccone]

RE: TMBG, Jizzhead et al,

 

>If I take myself out of the equation and think about how I would view others, if I weren’t doing it myself, it would be far from flattering.<

 

And why is that? I'm not being confrontational, I'm really curious to know what makes hiring an escort something a person should be ashamed of? Why is it something that, if you weren't doing it yourself, would make you loss respect for another person? Why is it wrong?

 

>I think of someone like Traveller, whom I have no reason to doubt is a young bohemian who does this because he’s got plenty of cash, likes big dicks and it’s a laugh. That makes me smile, but even he is not “respectable” in this particular aspect of his life.<

 

With all respect, that's only an opinion. Probably one shared by many, but still just an opinion. A subjective reaction to years of sexual repression (not yours, society at large's). A person who is willing to let the actions of their lives be determined by what others might think, is not really a person, but more like a projection.

 

>(He’s just having so much damn fun that it hardly matters.)<

 

Exactly. That's my point. He's having fun. You and many others find it entertaining to read about, countless escorts are grateful for his patronage. So what's not respectable about it? Beyond the illegality of it, past the morality, why is it wrong? I need it to be articulated for me, because I really don't get it.

 

>I do it because I like men who, due to a natural pecking order that is even more rigid in gay society, are out of my league. I could certainly date and have sex with men in my peer group – in regards to both age and looks – but I regularly make the more shallow choice to “obtain” a beautiful hard body. It’s not like I think it is condemnable and I should be branded and cast out of polite society, but it is hardly a choice worthy of respect.<

 

I don't know, phage. You preface respect and worth with pecking orders, being out of your league, peer groups and shallowness. In that context, someone buying their way into a different "class" of leisure (by paying for intimacy with beauty) does sound like "cheating", and therefore not worthy of respect. This all goes back to what I said last post about low self esteem. Defy societies constructs and you'll earn someone's respect somewhere, starting with your own. That's a rhetorical "you", by the way.

 

>>those who like to play will just have to do so in their own moral universe where hiring escorts is always the right thing to do, even if it can't be discussed outside of that universe.<<

 

>I think that’s where you might be wrong.<

 

Well, I was trying less to be correct than I was bombastic, but I believe my statement still has merit. In fact, I'm sure there's plenty of folks here, including myself, who've done exactly what I've described, although I doubt if anyone thinks of it as their own moral universe. Many thousands the world over live in a world where they eagerly meet with escorts on a weekly or monthly basis. I'm sure a good portion of those do so without remorse, guilt, or angst. As I've said, it's not discussed much outside of that universe, but there are plenty of happily adjusted men in the world who, respect be damned, would be very sad if their escorts suddenly disappeared. It's more evident on the escort side, where we meet more clients than you guys meet escorts. Do you think every escort lives in a state of "I'm unworthy of respect"? No, most of us rationalize away the wagging fingers of a shame throwing society. Those rationalizations become the fabric of our own moral universes. I know that sounds like a bunch of pretentious hooey, but can't you see the truth of it?

 

>Morality does not exist in your own private universe -- it is a function of the society we live in.<

 

I said in another thread that morality is subjective. A few hundred years ago, many people were slave owners. Respectable men. Men of station. They could easily be slave owners because society pretty much said it was okay, or moral. Did that make it right? Not to a few others, who found that in their own moral universe slavery was wrong, or immoral. I know that's an oversimplification, but I could draw many parallels of clashing universes showing that what one person thinks is moral and respectable, the guy next door hates. I'm not trying to persuade you into thinking that our society does think of escorting as a respectable profession, just that there's no reason I can see that it shouldn't be.

 

>I think “respect” is much the same.<

 

I think respect is exactly the same.

 

>You can retain your self-respect through most anything, but being “respectable” as in “the respect of others” is more determined by what your community finds admirable.<

 

In my own personal microcosm of existance, that is, the society I'm most faithful to, nearly everyone I truly know and hold dear as a close friend knows of my escorting. Many were friends before they knew, some not, but none recinded an iota of friendship or respect upon learning of my trade. In fact, the respect I had already garnered was compounded by my honesty and forthrightness. I'm sure many escorts here can share similar stories. Respect doesn't always have to be received like a gift. Nor is it determied by profession alone. It can be created, commanded.

 

>Even the gay community, by and large, does not find our behavior admirable. I’m obviously okay with that, but let’s not sugarcoat it.<

 

Okay, but let's not look at the glass half empty, either.

 

>>It's silly to think that there's a respectability gap between straight sex for free and gay sex for pay.<<

 

>You’re comparing two unlike things – free straight sex and paid gay sex. It’s not really about gay or straight.<

 

I wasn't comparing. What I said was that in the end, it's all just sex, which is what you also just said. My point was this: if it's unworthy of respect to have paid sex with a man, how is free sex with a spouse any more worthy, if in the end it's all just human behaviour? When you disregard what brought two couples to bed, how are they different?

 

>I don’t know any straight men that broadcast their use of prostitutes, and I believe it is for the same reasons.<

 

Once again, this reiterates what I said about water-cooler talk. I won't repeat it.

 

>I obviously agree with you about society’s perception of respectability, but one of us is confusing self-respect with being respectable.<

 

I think you've confused my point, which is my fault for not being more coherent. I'm saying that a person who is basically good, should let their sense of self-respect over-ride other's perceptions of respectability. Unless I'm commiting some atrocious act (i.e.inflicting physical or emotional pain), I answer to me.

[phage]

RE: TMBG, Jizzhead et al,

 

>>If I take myself out of the equation and think about how I would view others, if I weren’t doing it myself, it would be far from flattering.<

>

>And why is that?

 

In my heart of hearts, I believe that for many if not most clients, this is not a healthy pursuit. Whether we are cheating on our wives or boyfriends, avoiding real relationships with suitable partners, or simply refusing to grow up, we are making our sexual desires a priority that I do not believe is worthy of respect.

 

>I'm not being confrontational, I'm really

>curious to know what makes hiring an escort something a

>person should be ashamed of?

 

Let’s be careful not to associate a lack of a positive feeling like respect to mean that I feel something as negative as shame. I know I was unclear when I said my view would be “far from flattering.” I definitely do not think it is anything to be ashamed of anymore than I think it is anything to be proud of. I’m at a loss for the right neutral term to describe my feeling.

 

>Why is it something that, if

>you weren't doing it yourself, would make you loss respect

>for another person? Why is it wrong?

 

I’m only human and a fairly self-aware one. Like a reformed smoker, if I were able to resist the temptation, I’m sure I would be less understanding of those who cannot.

 

>Exactly. That's my point. He's having fun. You and many

>others find it entertaining to read about, countless escorts

>are grateful for his patronage. So what's not respectable

>about it? Beyond the illegality of it, past the morality,

>why is it wrong? I need it to be articulated for me, because

>I really don't get it.

 

Just because something is fun and entertaining certainly doesn’t make it respectable. I think it would be great fun to quit my job, sleep late every day and fart around on this message board. That would hardly be something worthy of respect. I also don’t think you can just get past the morality issue – they are too inter-related. But again, don’t go from “not respectable” all the way to “wrong.”

 

>I don't know, phage. You preface respect and worth with

>pecking orders, being out of your league, peer groups and

>shallowness. In that context, someone buying their way into

>a different "class" of leisure (by paying for intimacy with

>beauty) does sound like "cheating", and therefore not worthy

>of respect. This all goes back to what I said last post

>about low self esteem.

 

On the contrary, I’m secure and confident enough to understand where my strengths and weaknesses lie. I also understand and accept certain facts of life without it affecting my self-worth. Pretending that something is not true just because it doesn’t feel good is not an indication of high self-esteem – it’s a sign of a weak mind.

 

> No, most of us rationalize away the wagging

>fingers of a shame throwing society. Those rationalizations

>become the fabric of our own moral universes. I know that

>sounds like a bunch of pretentious hooey, but can't you see

>the truth of it?

 

That’s probably effective and important since you have basically chosen to thumb your nose at society. Your line of work also allows you the luxury of creating your own microcosm. I, on the other hand, merely wink at society so I need to incorporate it more. We’ve talked enough in the past that I’m sure you know I’m not trying to say you are undeserving of respect. You need to do whatever works for you.

 

>Respect doesn't always have to be

>received like a gift. Nor is it determied by profession

>alone. It can be created, commanded.

 

Only in one’s own mind. I’m ex-military and believe the philosophy that rank is given but respect must be earned.

[Guest Thunderbuns]

RE: TMBG, Jizzhead et al,

 

>>Actually I don't have a day job. Comes from having a trust

>>fund.

>

>Please spare us the usual message board game in which a

>poster tells us how superior his circumstances are as a

>substitute for making real points on the issue under

>discussion. We've all seen that too many times.

 

You're the one that brought up the subject of my day job. I just told you that I didn't have one and explained why.

If that bothers you - tough shit.

 

"usual message board game"? You mean like Monopoly? I'm not telling you how superior my circumstances are, that was your slant on it. For all you know my resourses may be just enough to barely exist.

 

I really do get a chuckle out of how all you old lesbians think the same!

 

Thunderbuns