Straight Guys

[Rod Hagen]

>Rod has taken us to task for liking twinks,

 

Look Jerry Lee Lewis, I made it clear that it's the manufacturing of an underage persona that sickens me, not the "youth" of the escort itself. Why are you pretending that that hasn't been my position from the beginning? Maybe because you're unable to counter the argument with anything other than "well, the escort IS of age, so what's the problem?"

 

>and now straight

>guys. Both of these are problems, but a guy paying money to

>have sex with another guy (so long as he's not a twink) is

>ok.

 

I didn't say that prostitution is ok. There are all sorts of reasons to judge prostitution. We hurt people, we're unattainable, we break up marriages, we often confuse, instead of clarify, one's longings. If people want to judge prostitutes, and their arguments are well structured, I'll listen. If people want to say all Minnesotans are dumb hicks, I'll listen as long as they can back it up.

 

I'm man enough to be judged. Those who aren't love to tell the rest of us about how fucking special they are because they would never judge others. Which of course is bullshit. Everybody judges others. Some people are just so unsure of their positions that they simply keep their judgments inside for fear of having their ignorance exposed. And then they crucify the rest of us for passing judgments, just so they look better. Sound familiar?

 

>I am reminded of the admonition delivered to the

>proverbial escort who lives in the glass house...

 

Right, I'm a prostitute, therefore I can't judge anyone. How ridiculous.

 

>Personally, I think it's all good. If you have two

>consenting adults... 18 and up... even if they look

>twinky... and even if one of them may be straight... and

>they want to have sex... even if they want to pay for it...

>I got no problems. Maybe labels are actually ok, if you

>don't sit in judgement of them. And you know what, it makes

>my world a lot happier that way at least.

 

Right because we all know that it's wrong to judge people. Unless, of course, you're judging people for passing judgments.

[Guest soccerstud]

I'm new at all this, but what am I missing?

 

Why would a truly straight guy want to have gay sex with gay guys? (I'm excluding experimental sex. I'm also excluding straight guys that don't participate but just enjoy getting "serviced" since that's a one-way street and not really, IMHO, gay sex.) Do gay guys enjoy eating pussy? How can truly straight (not bi) guys enjoy sucking dick or fucking other guys? As I read the original post, all I could think of was that there was no way the married guy was straight. It seems to me that there's some disconnect here, unless I'm really missing something fundamental.

 

There is certainly sexual satisfaction out of simply tactile skin-to-skin contact. But if a straight guy has a choice, I don't believe he would seek that kind of gratification from from other guys thgrough gay sex. (There was a long newpaper article yesterday about Afganistan straight men who--because of the strictures of the Taliban religion preventing even looking at a woman--regularly have gay sex with young boys as their sex outlet. Apparently up to 50% of straight Afgans have gay sex with young boys, but describe themselves as heterosexual. Perhaps same in prison situations. But that's not what this thread is dealing with.)

 

So when a gay guy thinks he's conquering his straight friend, is he just kidding himself? (Again, excluding experimental sex.) Is the guy really straight? Personally, having gay sex with a straight guy is a total turnoff for me since, if he is straight, how can he be really into and enjoying it? But I certainly respect others' choices, since when it comes to sex and almost all other things, who are we to judge others.

 

As to why another gay guy would want sex with a straight guy? Probably not internalized homophobia (although I don't rule it out). My guess is that it's wanting to convert the straight guy: see how fantastic gay sex can be? Come on over to our side. Or it's trying to attain the unattainable (the "forbidden fruit"; and if you buy my theory, that's a perfect description for the alleged straight guy.)

[+ deej]

I don't chalk it up to homophobia. To me, it's a matter of not limiting opportunities. If a man gets me horny, and is willing, I could care less how he identifies himself: gay, str8, or eunuch.

 

In college, one of my best friends was the poster boy for str8 guys. Tall, built, blond/blue, and he was what we used to call a chick magnet. I made it no secret to him that I wanted him, but for the longest time he said no.

 

One night when his date got him all rubbed up and left him panting, he knocked on my door and I gave him the best blowjob he'd ever had. That started a pattern but over time he got more and more interactive. The first time I rimmed him he nearly punched a hole in the wall. Six months later we were rimming each other regularly.

 

He actually became a pretty good fuck over time. But he still identified as str8. Whatever makes you feel good, honey, now suck my cock! }>

[Rick Munroe]

>>Why would a truly straight guy want to have gay sex with gay guys?

 

He wouldn't. That's why I use quotation marks everytime I say I like sucking off "straight" guys. I know it's fantasy. I'm not fooling myself!

 

>>Do gay guys enjoy eating pussy?

 

Hmmm...the only time I had to turn away a married guy who wanted to get blown was when, right before my eager lips were about to take in a real beauty of a dick, he told me that he'd fucked his wife that morning and hadn't washed it off as a 'special treat' for me. Since it wasn't Halloween, I told the trick I wasn't ready for that treat. Blech! (warning: tangent approaching) Btw, I do fantasize, when I see str8 porn, that I'm the bitch getting gangbanged & used...but I've also fantasized that I'm the one banging the bitch, pulling her hair, and even fingering/licking her clit. Go figure.

 

P.S. Jizz ("to call those...situations homophobic, on their own merit without other evidence of homophobia, is presumptious and narrow-minded") and Devon ("there's nothing wrong with taking a special pleasure in the guy's having been straight. You don't necessarily want to move in with your fantasies"): excellent points, guys! Now, as for deej ("If a man gets me horny, and is willing, I could care less how he identifies himself: gay, str8, or eunuch"), I just want to say: eewwww! (sorry to steal your word, Devon).

 

 

Devon also said, "...it's worth mentioning that straight men are changing along with the rest of the world. Many are wonderfully open about sexuality, which includes a healthy curiosity." So true. I think str8 women are, too (at least, the grounded ones I know). I have a few close female friends, all married, and I love to flirt with their husbands and tell the gals that I'm going to blow their men, and that all married guys eventually end up in my living room anyway. To their credit, both the men and women join in this banter...OK, I'm sure they all think I'm kidding, but...OK I lost my train of thought. Damn. I just started thinking about the one husband who's an ex-navy man. :9

[Rod Hagen]

>Fair enough, but it's also too easy to dismiss positions one

>is at odds with as internalized homophobia, which, of

>course, allows the speaker to position himself as the more

>evolved homo. I don't think you were doing this, by the way,

>and you raised some interesting points. I do think that's

>what Rod was doing.

 

Is this positioning you speak of akin to the, hypocrtical, higher ground others here take so often by denying the existence, or significance, of Labels, along with the absurd denial of passing judgment onto others?

[Rod Hagen]

> The straight guys I've fooled around with have just had this > sweet dopey quality about them that I liked

 

"I'm not gay, but I've always had this fantasy about being with a man (click)...Hello? Hello? Are you still there?"

[Rick Munroe]

>"I'm not gay, but I've always had this fantasy about being

>with a man (click)...Hello? Hello? Are you still there?"

 

Do you still have his phone number?? :9

[Guest jizzdepapi]

"I think, therefore you are" or "How to impose my own label"

 

Jizz: besides, what does your statement say about gay-for-pay escorts?

 

Rod: They're fucking with you...

 

Jizz: well, as far as i can tell, all escorts are fucking with us. That, of course, can be good or bad.

 

Rod: Either that or they, like so many others out there, are confused, and therefore curious...

 

Rod-like statement: hmmm. i don't understand them so i've decided they don't understand themselves. i can't tolerate not understanding someone so they must be confused. i know what i'll do--"I'll create a label."

 

Jizz-like statement: some of them might even not worry about their "confusion;" might ask themselves, "Oh, was I confused?" Further, they think to themselves, "Hey, this feels really good and i guess that's enough. Go figure!"

 

Jizz closed, pondering what this means for unpaid man-to-man sex...

[Guest elwood]

Interesting thread. I feel that sexual orientation is a continuum...a broad spectrum from exclusively homo to exclusively hetero and all varieties in between. Even the exclusives on each end may not be 100%.You can't tell anyones sexual orientation by outward behavior. Sexual behavior and orientation are such "charged" topics that very few are totally honest about them if they even totally understand themselves. To be an adult single male above a certain age to many implies homosexual...but definitely not true. To be a married man to many implies heterosexual....definitely not true. Many gays are intimidated by society into marriage..but fantasize about men while having sex with their wives.I have a daughter but consider myself on the nearly exclusive homo end of the spectrum. I was very young and did not truly understand my feelings or publicly admit to them. The marriage did not last long and that was to my benefit,my daughters benefit and my wife's benefit.Growing up..I always fantasized about guys not girls or women.I did not know what it meant at the time.Never had sex with another real person until I was 22.It was not talked about in our family. I never ask anyone their sexual orietation because it is a question that begs for an untruthful answer.I am attracted to masculinity...a wide variety of body types and facial features...sexual orientation is not the issue...its the looks,the pheromones etc.I am not attracted to "femme" behavior on the sexual level,yet that has no bearing on my respect for the individual.I am not attracted to musclebound types either. Nor to sexual violence,degradation. Bottom line...i love sex with men and that can cover a lot of territory.........and yet still....there is that tiny corner of myself that at 55 I still don't understand.Gues thats what keeps us interesting.

[Guest jizzdepapi]

rules + labels = home, sweet home?

 

Rod: This is called making up the rules as you go along...

 

Jizz: what rules?

 

Rod-like statement: You know; you know--the RULES. There must be RULES, right? Somebody, somebody, get the RULES--quick!

 

Jizz scratches head...

[Rick Munroe]

>Rod, you've always been a fairly gruff and curmudgeonly

>poster here, but the last day or so you've been particularly

>terse and hostile.

>

>Is everything OK?

 

Maybe he needs some "straight" dick? }>

[Rod Hagen]

RE: rules + labels = home, sweet home?

 

>Jizz scratches head...

 

Rod: Jism, keep adding "Rod-Like" phrases, instead of quoting me, and I'll break your arms (not really).

[Rod Hagen]

>Maybe he needs some "straight" dick? }>

 

If by "straight" you mean "hard" then bring it over.

[Guest regulation]

>Look Jerry Lee Lewis, I made it clear that it's the

>manufacturing of an underage persona that sickens me, not

>the "youth" of the escort itself.

 

In other words, one has to wonder about someone who chooses escorts to fit a fanstasy of having sex with underage kids.

 

>I didn't say that prostitution is ok. There are all sorts

>of reasons to judge prostitution. We hurt people, we're

>unattainable, we break up marriages, we often confuse,

>instead of clarify, one's longings. If people want to judge

>prostitutes, and their arguments are well structured, I'll

>listen. If people want to say all Minnesotans are dumb

>hicks, I'll listen as long as they can back it up.

>

>I'm man enough to be judged. Those who aren't love to tell

>the rest of us about how fucking special they are because

>they would never judge others. Which of course is bullshit.

> Everybody judges others. Some people are just so unsure of

>their positions that they simply keep their judgments inside

>for fear of having their ignorance exposed. And then they

>crucify the rest of us for passing judgments, just so they

>look better. Sound familiar?

 

It sounds as though you are someone with the emotional maturity to take an objective look at your own situation. That is very unusual here. Those who lack that quality will probably dismiss you as "gruff," "curmudgeonly" or "nasty."

 

So far as judging is concerned, I'd put it the same way another poster here once did. Prostitutes and johns are people who have cast aside the moral traditions in which they were raised. That makes it rather difficult for them to criticize anyone for anything. They've decided that their own personal appetites are more important than a code of laws or the moral code embodied in the major religions. So on what basis can they criticize others for making the same decision -- the people who assaulted that escort in Vegas, for example? When you hold your own desires superior to law and morality, you have nothing left but the law of the jungle. Which means that anyone who is strong enough can do anything to anybody, including you.

[guyinsf]

Actually, after submitting my comments this morning but after I left for work, I thought about some things that a few people have since added. Of course being attracted to "straight" men doesn't necessarily equate with homophobia. As others indicated, it could be the thrill of trying to convert someone or getting the supposedly unobtainable. It could also be a narcissistic thrill ("I'm so hot that even this straight guy wants to have sex with me.") It could be many things.

 

I, too, agree that sexual orientation is a huge continuum and that most people are not at one extreme end or another. So regardless of how some guy self identifies, I have a hard time viewing as "straight" someone who regularly has sex with a same sex partner. That may be his public persona but as the word "straight" is commonly understood in this culture, a guy regularly practicing gay sex is not really "straight" in terms of sexual orientation. I suggest that anyone who doubts this can take a poll of straight people: Do most straight people, especially most straight men, think that a guy is straight if he frequently has gay sex but also has a female partner and/or has sex with women? (A guy who puts his tongue up another guy's ass is straight? That's really got me laughing.)

 

If it adds to a gay guy's excitement to view such a guy as "straight," I do find that a curious fantasy.

 

I've certainly found plenty of straight men sexually attractive, but not BECAUSE of their heterosexuality. I still find a number of men sexually attractive, regardless of their sexual orientation (or whether I know anything about their sexual orientation). Being sexually attracted to someone is very different than getting a special thrill about someone because of the label he chooses to use publicly or the life he appears to lead to the outside world.

[marc anthony]

Rod: Your arguments are fucking ridiculous. Please excuse me if I don't break down your self-deprecating condemnation of yourself line by line and respond to each ?thought?

[Rick Munroe]

>Being sexually attracted

>to someone is very different than getting a special thrill

>about someone because of the label he chooses to use

>publicly or the life he appears to lead to the outside

>world.

 

How is it different? In either case, you're getting turned on & that's what it's all about. What gets us each off is a very personal thing. There could be a million reasons I'm sexually attracted to a man (there usually are) and every one of them would be valid.

[Rod Hagen]

>Rod: Your arguments are fucking ridiculous. Please excuse

>me if I don't break down your self-deprecating condemnation

>of yourself line by line and respond to each ?thought?

 

Thank you ,MA, for proving my point so well.

 

" Some people are just so unsure of their positions that they simply keep their judgments inside for fear of having their ignorance exposed. And then they crucify the rest of us for passing judgments,"

[chrismac]

>Prostitutes and johns are people who have cast aside the moral traditions in which they were raised. That makes it rather difficult for them to criticize anyone for anything.

 

That makes it rather difficult to criticize anyone for prostitution. Other unrelated issues (the fact that two actions may constitute a crime does not in itself make them related) are still open to debate.

 

We don't have the same punishment for all crimes for obvious reasons.

[guyinsf]

What I meant is that simply finding a man attractive because of his looks is different, at least for me, than meeting someone and then finding them attractive (or more attractive) because of his perceived sexual orientation. The former is mostly about the guy's looks, the latter about my internal fantasies as I interact with him.

[+ imagooddog]

First, I think I must offer an apology for having used the term

"straight" as a topic description for this discussion. I should

have put the word in quotes or with a question mark behind it.

At no time during the years I saw this man did I believe that

he was anything but bisexual.

Second, I guess I should offer another apology for bringing up a

topic this has been hashed and re-hased before. I did not realize

this, having been a member here only a few months.

 

I grew up in a small southern town and had my first sexual encounter with a guy when I was 15 years old and knew right away that I was gay. For 10 years after that all I knew was either you were gay and liked men only, or you were married and liked women only. I never heard of bisexual. So, after all these years my mind still thinks in those terms. (I am STILL astounded at how many guys swing both ways!)

 

One thing I have learned from this post is that you need to really be careful of the words you use......they are heavily scrutinized !

I think I will become a "lurker" for a while and just read other peoples comments. I seem to have created a monster with this.

[Guest Joey Ciccone]

RE: Men of science

 

>I think I will become a "lurker" for a while... I seem to have created a monster with this.<

 

Don't let a little animosity between posters discourage you. In my opinion, this site needs more monsters. If all Dr. Frankenstein ever did was "lurk", he never would have created the loveable monster that the world has thrilled to and been enthralled by for the past two hundred years. Post away, Victor.

[Rick Munroe]

>I think I will become a "lurker" for a while and just read

>other peoples comments. I seem to have created a monster

>with this.

 

Don't stop posting! Monsters are good and necessary. We can only learn by seeing opposing viewpoints. My eyes and those of many others here have been opened in the past by some of the argumentative threads on the message center. You done good and you should do it again.

[Guest regulation]

>>Prostitutes and johns are people who have cast aside the moral traditions in which they were raised. That makes it rather difficult for them to criticize anyone for anything.

>

>That makes it rather difficult to criticize anyone for

>prostitution.

 

Only if you're a prostitute or john.

 

>Other unrelated issues (the fact that two

>actions may constitute a crime does not in itself make them

>related) are still open to debate.

>

>We don't have the same punishment for all crimes for obvious

>reasons.

 

Should people who commit crimes in order to indulge their personal desires advocate criminal punishment for others? I notice you don't even try. A wise decision on your part.

[Guest regulation]

RE: breeder cock!

 

>>This is called making up the rules as you go along.

>

>And what's wrong with that? It's the way most people live

>their lives. (The flexible and cooperative ones, anyway.)

>Never heard the "rule" that rules were made to be broken?

 

I've heard that said many times. I'm sure it's just what the people who attacked that escort in Vegas were thinking.