papi has to wait!

[Guest jizzdepapi]

http://www.geocities.com/BourbonStreet/Quarter/5566/z-bogota.jpg

 

mediocre photo of awesome view from Montserrate, Bogota, Colombia--soon to be Jizz's new home!

 

leaving for Bogota Aug. 1--for one year, possibly two--to work with human rights groups oppposing U.S. interfence in internal political struggles. chance to work on appalling Spanish and experience life in a beautiful country that i've only visited thus far.

 

Jizz puts his money (life?) where his mouth is. i'm really, really happy about this but it's up to you guys to keep papi in line for me.

[CT Dick]

Good for you, Papi. All my best wishes. That's a tough corner of the world.

Will you be getting to internet cafes to keep up posted on how you are doing?

 

Dick

[trilingual]

Colombia can use all the help it can get. Hope it's a good experience for you! Besides the human rights front, the country is full of good-looking men, so we expect regular reports!

[Guest jizzdepapi]

nope; papi has to wait!

 

up to you guys to keep papi jizzin'! don't fret; it's a fun chore!

 

colombia, of course, is a very homophobic society. i'll be working with leftist groups so there is a lot more open space for gays. i'll really need to concentrate on my work and can't trick in bars or with strangers as i'll have a fairly public profile and need to be wary of being set up. but there's good security arrangements for my stay as long as i take reasonable precautions all the time.

 

unless i happen to find a rich old Colombian nymphomaniac with a heart condition, no children and no will... ;-)

 

hope my peter still works when i get back!

 

seriously; will supplement my income teaching English and will spend lots of time studying Spanish, need to learn to set up a bilingual website (hoo, you want a link?) and i've been asked to develop a database for tracking assassinations over the past 15 years.

 

travelling within Colombia frequently and on speaking tours in the U.S at least once during the first year. and come January, there's even a direct flight from Bogota to Mayaguez, Puerto Rico, where a very lustful jizz will be sure to check in with papi. jizz will be much too busy to spend time jizzin' but that's okay.

 

going down with either a laptop or desktop computer (that's why I was asking about the Apple sunflower) though there are numerous cheap internet cafes, from what i understand.

[trilingual]

RE: nope; papi has to wait!

 

Well, if you're going to be in Bogota for a year or two, there oughta be time to have some "social" life! Bogota is a big city, pushing 7 million, and there's definitely gay life there. I'm sure you can be reasonably anonymous in a city that size, if you want to be. :-) There used to be a pretty comprehensive website on gay life in Colombia, but I can't find it now; I don't know if it went out of business. However, it listed a lot of places in Bogota and the other big cities, and I'm sure they still exist! The Spartacus guide also has long lists of places in Bogota and other cities. So some first-hand reports would be most welcome!

[Guest Merlin]

Won't you be "interfering" in Columbia's internal strife? And these opposition groups are Communist or Marxist, are they not? What is there about their agenda which you think is worth risking your life for? Why do you think your interfering is better than other interfering?

[Guest jizzdepapi]

jizzdepapi = hot-blooded Latin revolutionary?

 

>Won't you be "interfering" in Columbia's internal strife?

 

nope; ready to leave the moment U.S.-funded paramilitaries stop targeting civilians and candidates of every stripe can run for office without fear of assasination.

 

>And these opposition groups are Communist or Marxist, are they not?

 

ah; the baiting begins. some of these opposition groups are Communist or Marxist, some aren't. as many of us know, more sophisticated political systems than present in the U.S. allow for broad coalitions of leftist and right-wing parties, which often include Communist or Marxist parties.

 

the populace of Colombia is quite capable of deciding if they favor a capitalist or socialist government.

 

>What is there about their agenda which you think is worth risking your life for?

 

putting me on the spot here but concepts like sovereignty of other nations and defending human rights spring to mind. also, you overstate the danger as long as i take the precautions i mentioned above.

 

>Why do you think your interfering is better than other interfering?

 

mine doesn't include assasination, use of the C.I.A. torture manual, covert military action, defoliation and subsequent destruction of potable water for Colombian farmers or reaping profits on the backs of the poor of Colombia.

 

p.s.: you forgot to ask if i support the Shining Path and their join-our-revolutionary-leftist-agenda-or-die approach.

[Guest jizzdepapi]

one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter?

 

The U.S. Congress passed ($1.3B) Plan Colombia in FY 2001. This military "aid," as is most, was conditioned on compliance with human rights by the Colombian military and government, presently the largest violator of human rights in the western hemisphere. Recently, the Bush administration sought to have this condition removed from provision of further aid, claiming that FARC, Marxist guerillas, posed the same threat as Al-Quaeda. Rep. Jim McGovern openly derided this speculation.

 

U.S. CONGRESS MOVING TOWARD OPEN SUPPORT FOR COLOMBIAN COUNTERINSURGENCY?

 

Bill Spencer of the Washington Office on Latin America (WOLA) reports:

 

Earlier today (Wed March 6) the House of Representatives passed a resolution expressing support for President Pastrana, and calling on the Bush Administration to submit a new plan to the Congress for helping Colombia defend itself against terrorism and drug-trafficking. The resolution will not in itself change U.S. policy. It will not, for example, allow Colombia to use equipment provided by the U.S. for counterdrug purposes to pursue specifically counterinsurgency/counterterrorism objectives. But many see this as the first official move by the Congress in that direction.

 

According to WOLA's Spencer:

 

Although many of his colleagues no doubt have deep misgivings, Rep. James McGovern (D, MA) was the only Member of the House who went to the floor and spoke against the resolution.

 

TIME FOR CAUTION IN COLOMBIA

the text of Rep. McGovern's remarks on the floor of the House, March 6, 2002:

 

“Mr. Speaker, I rise to oppose this resolution, and I want to be very clear about my concerns regarding this bill and the critical crossroads confronting U.S. policy in Colombia. Like every Member of this House, I support the democratically-elected government of Colombia. I’ve met with President Pastrana and I am a strong supporter of his efforts for social and economic reform.

 

Having traveled to Colombia, I know how very complex the society and the conflict are, and I have seen the harm done to the Colombian people by the guerrillas, paramilitary groups, and the Colombian army. I believe very strongly that Congress should not rush to signal support that would increase our involvement in Colombia’s escalating civil war.

 

The Colombian civil war has been going on for nearly 40 years. The armed actors remain nearly unchanged. Leftist guerrilla groups battle the Colombian army for control of territory, while right-wing paramilitaries increase their own involvement in the war and violence against civilians. All of these armed actors, including the Colombian military, have been involved in drug-trafficking. All have a history of human rights abuses.

 

Human rights groups continue to document the close ties between the Colombian army and the paramilitaries, who commit the majority of human rights abuses in Colombia. Colombia is hardly a new front in the war on terrorism. Terrible acts of terror—assassinations, kidnappings, bombings and disappearances—are part and parcel of their forty-year civil war. But Colombia is not part of the internationally-supported campaign to dismantle and destroy al-Qaeda and other international terrorist networks.

 

Let us not hide behind euphemisms. A so-called war on terrorism in Colombia is simply a set of code words to become even more deeply engaged in a counter-insurgency war that has been going on for nearly forty years. I have been a strong supporter of President Pastrana, but the message we send today will be heard and acted upon more by his successor when elections take place in the coming months.

 

The leading presidential candidate, Alvaro Uribe, has long rejected any type of negotiations process, and he has the support of the right-wing paramilitary groups—the very groups we are rightly condemning today.

 

Our current policy in Colombia has been a failure.

 

*It has not stemmed the production of coca.

 

* It has not provided peasant farmers with alternatives to growing coca.

 

*It has not lessened the number of internally displaced people.

 

*It has not broken the ties between the Colombian army and the paramilitaries.

 

*It has not decreased the number of civilians who are victims of human rights abuses and violence.

 

*It has not promoted the administration of justice.

 

The current Attorney General, Camilo Osorio, unlike his predecessors, is not an advocate for human rights. He has dismissed or stopped investigations on many of the cases involving high-level military and government officials. As a result, most of the key officers and prosecutors in the Justice Ministry responsible for investigating and prosecuting human rights and corruption cases have resigned or been forced out of office. For our part, the US demonstrates its commitment to human rights by consistently waiving the conditions on our aid every six months because the Colombian military continues to fail to comply.

 

And now this resolution wants to give a green light to involve the U.S. more deeply and more directly in Colombia’s escalating civil war. I simply cannot support this, and I urge my colleagues to oppose this resolution."

 

http://www.nacla.org

[+ Axiom2001]

RE: nope; papi has to wait!

 

I extend my utmost support to you during this serious, worthwile, impending endeavor!

[+ Axiom2001]

RE: one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter?

 

>The U.S. Congress passed ($1.3B) Plan Colombia in FY 2001.

>This military "aid," as is most, was conditioned on

>compliance with human rights by the Colombian military and

>government, presently the largest violator of human rights

>in the western hemisphere. Recently, the Bush administration

>sought to have this condition removed from provision of

>further aid, claiming that FARC, Marxist guerillas, posed

>the same threat as Al-Quaeda. Rep. Jim McGovern openly

>derided this speculation.

>

>U.S. CONGRESS MOVING TOWARD OPEN SUPPORT FOR COLOMBIAN

>COUNTERINSURGENCY?

>

>Bill Spencer of the Washington Office on Latin America

>(WOLA) reports:

>

>Earlier today (Wed March 6) the House of Representatives

>passed a resolution expressing support for President

>Pastrana, and calling on the Bush Administration to submit a

>new plan to the Congress for helping Colombia defend itself

>against terrorism and drug-trafficking. The resolution will

>not in itself change U.S. policy. It will not, for example,

>allow Colombia to use equipment provided by the U.S. for

>counterdrug purposes to pursue specifically

>counterinsurgency/counterterrorism objectives. But many

>see this as the first official move by the Congress in that

>direction.

>

>According to WOLA's Spencer:

>

>Although many of his colleagues no doubt have deep

>misgivings, Rep. James McGovern (D, MA) was the only Member

>of the House who went to the floor and spoke against the

>resolution.

>

>TIME FOR CAUTION IN COLOMBIA

>the text of Rep. McGovern's remarks on the floor of the

>House, March 6, 2002:

>

>“Mr. Speaker, I rise to oppose this resolution, and I want

>to be very clear about my concerns regarding this bill and

>the critical crossroads confronting U.S. policy in Colombia.

>Like every Member of this House, I support the

>democratically-elected government of Colombia. I’ve met with

>President Pastrana and I am a strong supporter of his

>efforts for social and economic reform.

>

>Having traveled to Colombia, I know how very complex the

>society and the conflict are, and I have seen the harm done

>to the Colombian people by the guerrillas, paramilitary

>groups, and the Colombian army. I believe very strongly that

>Congress should not rush to signal support that would

>increase our involvement in Colombia’s escalating civil war.

>

>The Colombian civil war has been going on for nearly 40

>years. The armed actors remain nearly unchanged. Leftist

>guerrilla groups battle the Colombian army for control of

>territory, while right-wing paramilitaries increase their

>own involvement in the war and violence against civilians.

>All of these armed actors, including the Colombian military,

>have been involved in drug-trafficking. All have a history

>of human rights abuses.

>

>Human rights groups continue to document the close ties

>between the Colombian army and the paramilitaries, who

>commit the majority of human rights abuses in Colombia.

>Colombia is hardly a new front in the war on terrorism.

>Terrible acts of terror—assassinations, kidnappings,

>bombings and disappearances—are part and parcel of their

>forty-year civil war. But Colombia is not part of the

>internationally-supported campaign to dismantle and destroy

>al-Qaeda and other international terrorist networks.

>

>Let us not hide behind euphemisms. A so-called war on

>terrorism in Colombia is simply a set of code words to

>become even more deeply engaged in a counter-insurgency war

>that has been going on for nearly forty years. I have

>been a strong supporter of President Pastrana, but the

>message we send today will be heard and acted upon more by

>his successor when elections take place in the coming

>months.

>

>The leading presidential candidate, Alvaro Uribe, has long

>rejected any type of negotiations process, and he has the

>support of the right-wing paramilitary groups—the very

>groups we are rightly condemning today.

>

>Our current policy in Colombia has been a failure.

>

>*It has not stemmed the production of coca.

>

>* It has not provided peasant farmers with alternatives to

>growing coca.

>

>*It has not lessened the number of internally displaced

>people.

>

>*It has not broken the ties between the Colombian army and

>the paramilitaries.

>

>*It has not decreased the number of civilians who are

>victims of human rights abuses and violence.

>

>*It has not promoted the administration of justice.

>

>The current Attorney General, Camilo Osorio, unlike his

>predecessors, is not an advocate for human rights. He has

>dismissed or stopped investigations on many of the cases

>involving high-level military and government officials. As a

>result, most of the key officers and prosecutors in the

>Justice Ministry responsible for investigating and

>prosecuting human rights and corruption cases have resigned

>or been forced out of office. For our part, the US

>demonstrates its commitment to human rights by consistently

>waiving the conditions on our aid every six months because

>the Colombian military continues to fail to comply.

>

>And now this resolution wants to give a green light to

>involve the U.S. more deeply and more directly in Colombia’s

>escalating civil war. I simply cannot support this, and I

>urge my colleagues to oppose this resolution."

>

>http://www.nacla.org

 

Accolades to you for YOUR attempting to enlighten Merlin. His use of the words "interferring" and "Communist" and "Marxist", and his questioning your intent brought out the red lights and revealed someone who is appaently oblivious to some of this world's horrendous ills. HUMANITY and HUMANESS were two words which came to mind after I read of your future intent. Thanks, man!

[Guest jizzdepapi]

RE: one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter?

 

thanks, axiom and CT Dick, you're sweeties. and trilingual's sweetness is overwhelmed only by his horny intent.

 

jizz-de-hammer-and-sickle-papi

[trilingual]

RE: one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter?

 

Horny intent? Moi? I'm just looking out for your own welfare, Jizz; a year or two of forced abstinence can have very strange effects on a guy!

 

You certainly have my salute for being willing to put your head into the lion's mouth. Colombia is a pretty scary place to be involved politically, in any way, whatever your political position, or even if you're working as an outsider for an NGO. I mean, they kidnap, torture and kill people there. Frequently. It's really heartbreaking (just like Argentina is heartbreaking, in a different way) because Colombia is a country that has everything yet can't find a way to live with itself. More power to anyone who can help them find a way to do that. It's going to be terrifically hard, though, because all sides are so tainted and corrupt. It's not just the paramilitaries who are disgusting. The FARC and ELN long ago lost track of any social or humanitarian purpose for their insurgency. Now they're just another in the long list of money-grubbing, power-hungry narcotics traffickers in Colombia. ¡Muchísima suerte, chico!

[Guest Merlin]

RE: one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter?

 

An article in the New York Times Magazine yesterday concludes " Most Columbians, rich or poor, prefer life under the paramilitaries. The [communist] FARC are seen as abominable and arrogant bandits who kidnap and kill without mercy--using children as soldiers and kitchen gas tanks as bombs. This explains why the overwhelming majority of Colombians support President Andres Pastrana's recent decision to suspend the peace process and drive the rebels out of the sanctuary they were granted three years ago."

We have long experience with communists and marxists. They are never the good guys. Whey they come to power, democracy will come to an end and a large portion of the population will be lined up against the wall and shot. Those who will not learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

[Guest jizzdepapi]

Sulzburgers Say, "Revolutionaries Suck!"

 

Thanks for the tip, Merlin. I'll check out the Times website today and see how many lies they managed to fit in print. For now, though, let’s take this point by point; maybe there’s whole sectors of the Colombian population the Times ignored or complex factors on which they turned their backs, something they’ve established a history of doing, when it suited their right-wing agenda (Fing: look up Raymond Bonner and the Salvadoran El Mozote massacre to establish the Times’ leftist agenda, if you wish. Bonner wound up on the Long Island beat after he reported what he had discovered in El Salvador. Rosenthal and the Sulzburgers were not pleased so Bonner went to the New Yorker for publication of a groundbreaking story):

 

> Most Columbians, rich or poor, prefer life under the paramilitaries…

 

I think you mean ColOmbians rather than the students in NYC. And also, to one extent, this comment is true—life under the paramilitary is certainly preferable to death under the paramilitary. Many assassinated Colombians know about this.

 

But anyway, does that include (for only one example), the 3,000+ UNP (sorry; I don’t know what this acronym means but it is a leftist coalition which still exists) members murdered by the paramilitary beginning in 1985 and their grateful survivors? Think Tianemen Square, only clandestinely and spread over a period of months. The government had proclaimed open space for Colombian dissidents while their intelligence gathered names of people showing any progressive proclivities. When they thought they could target enough potential mayoral and assembly candidates, prospective union organizers, women activists, and others, the slaughter began. Many sitting members of government, including elected officials and, notably, the judiciary, who showed a progressive bent during this period, were assassinated, as well. My best friend, who is from Colombia, witnessed most of his friends—fellow student organizers—being slaughtered; he fled to the United States and was granted political asylum. All of this was carried out by the paramilitary in the darkness of night.

 

This modus operandi, taught to various Latin and other nations, at the School of the Americas in Fort Benning, Georgia, makes me wonder what the paramilitary was thinking. Due to the overwhelming popularity bestowed upon them by the Times, surely the paramilitary could have conducted this campaign in the light. With great glee and growing confidence in their constitution, Colombians could have witnessed democracy-assassination in action. Think murdering Salvadoran Archbishop Oscar Romero while he celebrated Mass to the sounds of trumpets and cymbals (the day before he was murdered by U.S.-trained-assassins in El Salvador, the Archbishop had told soldiers—government and the FMLN Marxist guerillas—that they should all put down their arms; that it was a sin to kill their brothers). Sing the national anthem and joyfully skip back to your shantytown to see prices raised yet again, drug lords and friendly politicians grow richer, and any chance of free political expression disappear. (For those in the know, yesterday was an important anniversary; 21 years since the Archbishop was gunned down by U.S.-trained assassins.)

 

The question of the paramilitary in Colombian society is difficult; desperately poor Colombians have banded with either FARC or the paramilitary, in hopes of making a living. It’s probably important to note here that Colombia is the only Latin American country that has not instituted land reform, giving back land which these young men (and women) could farm (yup; many of these families owned land at one time but were forced out by ambitious coffee barons). Desperate young men joined the paramilitary and FARC with not much more choice, in some analyses, than certain segments of our own young, who decide to sell drugs for a livelihood.

 

The paramilitary was started to assist the Colombian military in carrying out illegal military campaigns, to accomplish both an ongoing program of political suppression and protection of drug lords, with strong (and, yup, documented) ties to government/military officials (Can we now coin the phrase, ‘narco-General?’). As their ties to the drug trade grew stronger, they have spun out of control of the military. In fact, now, if the military were to decide to disband the paramilitary, they would most likely prove unable to do so.

 

>The [communist] FARC are seen as abominable and arrogant bandits who kidnap and kill without mercy—using children as soldiers and kitchen gas tanks as bombs…

 

If I can diverge for yet another moment, in 1992 I, along with other activists who had lobbied to end U.S. funding of the war, visited El Salvador after the peace accords had been signed in a struggle similar to, yet very different from, that of Colombia.

 

For several days, we stayed in the countryside with farmers and their families. As we drove into the countryside from San Salvador, we saw prime land very well tended with impressive houses and much productive activity. These were coffee “fincas,” owned by very large and rich coffee barons, powerful men with very strong ties to government and military. Most of the land whose spoils they enjoyed had been stolen from the poor over a very long period of time. The coffee barons, also, employed paramilitary to protect their farms, both from robbers and from Salvadorans who had fled the country or region when they were forced off the land but were now legally returning to re-claim it, as promised in the peace accords.

 

Anyway, (Jeez, is this guy still gabbing? Isn’t this a message center for escorts and Johns?), on the way to the farmers’ collective, we passed by small fallow farms with untended fields and barely habitable housing. These were the farms of either poor farmers who had not been forced off of their land or refugees who had returned. They had no credit to buy tools, no seed, no fertilizer and individually did not have the resources to farm their land even if they did have some money.

 

We arrived at farms which were productive, though not picturesque. Some farmers had decided to band together and tried to make a living together by sharing their resources. There was much consternation in San Salvador about these farmers, who were acting on a model proposed by the FLMN and the left, including GASP!, the Communists. It was a novel idea, though not promising for the government or their powerful friends—one farmer might hold title to land, another might have tools, one might own a cow, one some seed, and one might even have access to some credit. As we met with these farmers—they were thrilled beyond belief that some gringos had an interest in them—it dawned on me that this was the GASP!-Communism I had seen so derided in the pages of the NYT and other publications. Holy cow, these people were making a living and their children were going to school. A Swedish delegation of nurses had just completed building a health clinic for the community. There was hope in this village, a feeling I imagined much different than that of mothers in San Salvador who were forced to send their pre-teen children out to beg in the public plazas.

 

We met one old man in the village who had no family. He and his wife had owned and operated a small farm, which as he grew older was taken over by one of his sons and his family. They had been forced off of that farm, the son killed by paramilitary, acting on behalf of a coffee baron. They were subsequently forced to farm on the hillside, which of course became eroded and fallow. I was moved beyond words when he related that he had a small amount of farming equipment, which he offered to the farming collective, which of course, took him in. He helped to tend to the children but could do little else. I realized as I stood in that poor village that I was surrounded by COMMUNISTS (Marxist, maybe, I don’t know) and that they were human and that they were thriving. It also dawned on me that despite Ronald Reagan and Jean Kirkpatrick’s lies, what the struggle about Communism was about was whether this poor collective would realize the profit from a modest harvest of carrots or peppers that you or I might buy or whether shareholders of a multinational agribusiness would. Since that day, I have sided with the farmers. OKAY, I ADMIT IT! I HAVE MET COMMUNISTS AND I HAVE LIKED THEM! THEY SEEMED TO CARE ABOUT AND THEIR AGENDA SEEMED TO OFFER A LIVELIHOOD TO POOR PEOPLE! More than Microsoft, okay?

 

Holy shit; I said it and I feel good. Thanks, Merlin.

 

Back to Colombia: Following the government’s slaughter of 1985 and forward, the one dissenting voice that was raised was that of FARC and two other smaller guerilla units. I’m not an apologist for FARC but I do think it’s important to understand how severely the media in both Colombia and the U.S. distort their role, intent, activities, and importance.

 

Okay, you can’t escape the drugs, not if you’re Colombian. Since the U.S. drug addict so desperately needs his/her fix, there has to be a country out there that can harvest, manufacture and distribute drugs—even if it does introduce incredible violence to a formerly peaceful society and even if it does mean random murder on a mass scale and even if it does mean that political struggles will get all mixed up with economic and social ones. And yup, our drug producers used to be in Bolivia and, at another time, Peru. And we shut them down but, sure enough, the US. drug addict can be assured his/her supply from Colombia.

 

Okay; I’ll admit it—just like government officials (narco-Senators), the military (narco-Generals), certainly the paramilitary (right-wing narco-terrorists), and even poor and middle-class Colombian families whose members are frequently cut down in the cross-fire between the above over drugs (narco-victims?), FARC (left-wing-GASP-Marxist-Communist narco-terrorists) has ties to drugs. It might also be noted that they have proposed a political solution to the Colombian situation which is anathema to both the narco-government and a narco-obsessed government in Washington, D.C.

 

The fact is that FARC collects a tax from farmers in areas of the country they control. Yup; the only crop Colombian narco-farmers can grow is the coca plant (coffee, the only other viable cash crop—as in El Salvador-comes from the narco-coffee barons). And FARC, which protects small farmers from competing drug cartels, taxes them for protection. They also enjoy increased safety in FARC-controlled areas. Anecdotal evidence abounds about kidnappings and robbery by both FARC narco-terrorists and paramilitary narco-terrorists. That’s why I’m not a FARC apologist. I do know that many narco-residents who live in FARC-controlled areas seem to like their brand of justice and protection.

 

>kitchen gas tanks as bombs…

 

well, the FMLN, when munitions were tight, used tuna fish cans to build bombs. Does the use of U.S.-provided Blackhawk helicopters make the cause of the narco-government more just or just more lethal?

 

>This explains why the overwhelming majority of Colombians support President Andres Pastrana's recent decision to suspend the peace process and drive the rebels out of the sanctuary they were granted three years ago…

 

Did the Times comment on how provision of $1.3 billion in military aid to one side in the midst of peace talks might upset the apple cart? Did they mention that as narco-government officials lobbied in Washington and elsewhere and it became more clear that the military “aid” would be provided, it seemed the Pastrana administration showed less interest in negotiating?

 

Did they also mention how little support the U.S. government offered Pastrana when he embarked on the peace process? Did they also talk about the prospects for peace and resumed peace talks under the likely election in May of Alvaro Uribe, alleged founder of the Colombian narco-paramilitary?

 

>We have long experience with communists and marxists…

 

Pardon me; I only know your cyber-handle but are you some deposed Crown Prince who escaped or something? Or are you one of the Chinese "free-market" GASP-Communists with whom we trade so freely and whose human rights records we ignore.

 

>They are never the good guys…

 

Is this absolute judgment from the pages of the Times or you? Conversely, are we always the good guys? What does that make you? Me?

 

>When they come to power, democracy will come to an end…

 

Kinda like apocalyptic Havana? I did notice that it's mostly old people in Florida now. Is that Che and Fidel's doings? I would venture to say that some of those pesky narco-Guerillas would think that democracy had never started, anyway or anywhere.

 

>…and a large portion of the population will be lined up against the wall and shot.

 

Are you referring to the actions of the Conquistadors? They already know about that. Or to dissenting U.S. slaves? Or to El Mozote (see above)?

 

>Those who will not learn from history are doomed to repeat it…

 

I guess you had to close with something and since there is little to no substance to yours or the Times' analysis, this is as vacuous a saying as any.

 

Actually, I would think that FARC would very much like to see the U.S. and western interests stop meddling in Colombia. FARC has certainly learned from history and keeps in mind the oft-quoted adage, “Yankee, go home!”

 

Best,

narco-Jizzdepapi

 

P.S.: Did the Times mention the phrases, "Occidental" or "Uwa," as in the Colombian government illegally forced the Uwa, 5,000 indigenous peoples inhabiting one of the last remaining pristine rainforests in Colombia, to which they held title, so that Occidental might explore for oil, despite the threat of their mass suicide? Could make for some great reading, chapter two of "Revolutionaries Suck and Bring On Them Multinationals!"

[duke37]

RE: Sulzburgers Say,

 

Thanks jizz for your post. I had wanted to ask you if the US wanted to do some good for Colombia, what we could do. Of course thats a slightly complex question. What would you suggest the US government do to improve the situation? What should American businesses or ordinary people do to help or maybe not make things worse? I'm not asking this to bait you. I really am interested in your opinion. I can't speak for everyone else though.

 

I don't guess its a huge stretch to think the average ordinary Colombian would like a chance to make a better life, work, raise families in an enviroment free from violence. Whats the best way to get there? Whether or not The Times is correct about the support of the Pastrana govt. among the general populace would have to be seen that way. Do you think the Times is wrong about the reservoir of support? Or do you think Pastrana supporters are wrong to support the government?

 

I noticed you mentioned going to El Salvador after the peace accord. Could something like that happen in Colombia? I thinking branding those co-op farmers as communists is a little premature. Plenty of groups like that in the US too. Maybe they politically are communists, but I can't tell based on what you told us.

 

I suppose I generally think of the NY Times as left of center because of their national political views. Thanks for pointing out an exception. We can call it a right wing paper when they endorse a Republican for president. Wait. They are never going to do that.

 

Again thanks for all of the information. You anticipated most of what I wanted to ask you.

 

Jeff

[trilingual]

RE: Sulzburgers Say,

 

Well, I don't think Colombia's problems have their origin in the New York Times, and maybe not even with the School of the Americas. Colombia has been a very sick country for for a very, very long time. Maybe there's a solution, but I can't figure one out. It's kind of like Argentina. They've gotten themselves into a total jam, and there's no obvious way out of the box they've gotten themselves into. What do you do when the existing politicians have run your country into the ground and there's absolutely NOBODY on the political horizon who didn't participate in ruining the country? In Argentina, the pols are all tainted, but there's nobody else to turn to when the next elections come up in 2003. In Colombia, nobody's clean, either. So how does that get fixed? It's going to be interesting, when viewed from a distance. It's going to be hell for the people who have to live with these situations day to day.

[Guest jizzdepapi]

donna nobis pacem (and make jizz shut up!)

 

Thanks for your thoughtful reply and excellent questions, jeff. glad i spurred some interest in this issue. here's some replies to your questions in what I think might be reverse order of importance.

 

>I suppose I generally think of the NY Times as left of center because of their national political views. Thanks for pointing out an exception. We can call it a right wing paper when they endorse a Republican for president. Wait. They are never going to do that.

 

I don't think of the Times as a liberal bastion in either domestic or foreign affairs. I differ with a few of my friends on this so expect I will also differ on this bbs. I also find little to no difference in Republican or Democratic agendas so don't think affiliation with either party necessarily indicates left- or right-wing tendencies. All of this might be tempered by my view, and certainly that of others whom I emulate, that it is not so much the President or Congress that run this country as it is multinationals and corporations, the Pentagon, the military-industrial complex and right-wing think thanks to which they belong.

 

>Whether or not The Times is correct about the support of the Pastrana govt. among the general populace would have to be seen that way. Do you think the Times is wrong about the reservoir of support? Or do you think Pastrana supporters are wrong to support the government?

 

Individuals elected to office in very militarized countries are generally not that important. They usually need to be backed by extremely right-wing powers to be elected and know very well that they need to toe a rigidly-defined line to retain power. There was some hope when Pastrana (actually Pastrana Jr. His father had been President; I'm not sure but I think his father had been President during the 1985 slaughter mentioned in an earlier post) was elected. He seemed liberal in an otherwise uniformly right-wing circle of candidates; his ties to the military seemed weaker than those of other candidates and he spoke, pre-election, of brokering peace talks and ceding some power to the guerillas. The strength of the military and the grasp of the right wing in the Assembly predictably proved too much. Pastrana might be seen as a watered-down Chavez, the Venezuelan President, who currently is experiencing a similar right-wing reaction.

 

>I thinking branding those co-op farmers as communists is a little premature. Plenty of groups like that in the US too. Maybe they politically are communists, but I can't tell based on what you told us.

 

The notions of liberation theology, implemented earlier in Nicaragua and to a lesser extent in Guatemala, established models throughout Latin America which farming collectives in El Salvador emulated. They were, for the most part, explictly Christian and explictly socialist, being named Christian-based communities. The Jesuits and Communists developed this model together. Farmers might have less of an ideological foundation than political activists with more education, who usually work in urban areas, but they would certainly understand that they were living out a socialist ideal. The communes of the 1970s and foward in this country have a much fuzzier notion of sharing goods and work; I don't think most of them would think of themselves as socialist, though they might be more sympathetic than the average U.S. citizen. The Jesuits are less active in Colombia; in fact, there is a much more significant right-wing Christian and Mormon agenda being preached by Colombian clergy and missionaries.

 

>I don't guess its a huge stretch to think the average ordinary Colombian would like a chance to make a better life, work, raise families in an enviroment free from violence. Whats the best way to get there?... If the US wanted to do some good for Colombia, what could we do?... What would you suggest the US government do to improve the situation?... What should American businesses or ordinary people do to help or maybe not make things worse?... the peace accords--could something like that happen in Colombia?

 

These related comments/questions really cut to the heart of the matter. U.S. foreign policy re. Colombia shows no concern for the violence that supplying U.S. addicts has introduced into all sectors of Colombian society, and in my view, equally in the cities and suburbs of our own country. Put simply, until the United States stops arming the Colombian military, there is no chance that a peaceful method to resolving Colombian political/social/economic disparities will be found. Why would anyone sit down at the table to talk seriously about giving up power in exchange for equal concessions when they have the weight of the world's remaining superpower backing them? And equally important, why would they give up their own ties to the drug industry?

 

Though Plan Colombia pays lip service to finding alternative crops to coca for desparate farmers to grow, there is no serious study being conducted in this area. Agribusiness dominates this field and finding alternative crops for small farmers in Colombia and other nations would hurt profits for these U.S. government friendly businesses. Hence, Colombian farmers are forced to grow the only cop which is viable in their society.

 

Long-term, U.S. interests extend far beyond the drug trade in Colombia. Surprise, surprise, Colombia has vast oil reserves and the U.S. and western nations are very interested in these, no matter how many indigenous people are displaced to produce oil or whatever violence/poverty/disruption it takes to establish a corporate beachhead in the country. You might want to do a search on the web for the "neoliberal" model.

 

It's really the Colombians who should be asked what it would take to end the political strife and violence in their society. When all is said and done, we're safely ensconced in the U.S. And it's just not our role to redefine their society according to what we think is best for them.

 

Specific (but huge) steps that would help Colombia resolve their internal political problems might include:

 

End military aid,

 

condition other aid on compliance with human rights, to be certified by Colombian-designated NGOs,

 

encourage the Colombian government to resolve political differences peacefully,

 

discourage multinational and corporate "invasions" that violate workers rights, poor people's ownership of land or wreak havoc with the environment,

 

deal with the U.S. drug addict problem internally and de-criminalize drugs. Short of this change which would dramatically alter life in Colombia and the Unites States, acknowledge alcohol as a drug and throw all the U.S. senators and bankers in jail),

 

take all the money we save on de-criminalizing drugs, releasing non-violent drug offenders and pouring massive amounts of the savings into education about drugs, treatment of addicts and job training for former inmates.

 

Besides, then the actions of the President's fun-loving daughters and nieces won't be so embarassing.

 

It's obviously time for me to move onto another thread.

 

Best,

Jizz

 

P.S.: Imagine if I used all this energy to just suck cock!

[Guest jizzdepapi]

jeez; time to rebut & everyone's at the NRA meeting?

 

come on, reggie and merlin. quit lurking and put your dukes up!

 

best,

jizz-got-you-coming-or-going

 

p.s.: pickwicky, where you at? sure i misspelled something or malaphroped.