Rimming - Is it safe?

[Guest TruthTeller]

>Rimming is my all time favorite thing to do. But I won't

>even think about it if there is any indication that the

>rimee is not clean.

>And if I have to use a barrier - then what's the point -

>takes ALL the fun out of it.

 

According to pickwick and regulation, you should be dead by now from liver failure. You're a chronic asshole licker and yet you don't have Hepatitis C. Gee, I wonder why that is? Might it be because HCV is not trasmissible through asslicking?

[Donnie]

>I believe Italians are members of the same species as the rest

>of us, are they not? I've always assumed so. :-)

 

pickwick, you are just too fucking adorable for words. I mean, who doesn't love a smug, vile, pretentious faggot? You're just yummy!

[Guest pshaw]

I couldn't find any reference on the CDC fact sheet to rimming being a risk factor for contracting HCV [http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/diseases/hepatitis/c/fact.htm]. It does note that there is some risk (low) for those who have sex with multiple partners or an infected partner. I would guess that the suspected tranmission factor in those instances would be semen or incidental bleeding, as the recommendation is to wear latex condoms.

 

According to the American Liver Foundation:

 

"HCV Infection Risk Factors:

 

Known to Transmit Infection

- Using illegal injection drugs, even once

- Having a transfusion or organ transplant before July 1992

- Having long term hemodialysis

- Receiving clotting factor made prior to 1987

- Being injured by a needle or other sharp object that has infected blood on it

- Being born to an infected mother

 

May Transmit Infection

- Having unprotected sex with multiple partners or a history of sexually transmitted diseases"

[Boston Guy]

>Rimming is my all time favorite thing to do. But I won't

>even think about it if there is any indication that the

>rimee is not clean.

>

>And if I have to use a barrier - then what's the point -

>takes ALL the fun out of it.

>

>Thunderbuns

 

I understand. Any sexual activity carries with it some risk, which of course is completely independent for our fondness for the activity. The thing we as adults have to do is try to understand the risks involved and then make intelligent decisions in terms of how we want to live our own lives.

 

What might be an acceptable risk for me might not be for you or vice versa. And certainly risk vs. reward is often a component of the equation and probably should be.

 

Driving down the road, getting on an airplane, even crossing the street all carry certain risks that we have (mostly) internalized and accepted. Unfortunately, when it comes to sex, it's more difficult to avoid rationalizing away risks that perhaps shouldn't be. A case in point is the increase in barebacking that seems to be occurring among certain groups of young gay men.

[Guest JT]

Reg,

 

I haven't read that report yet but the following are my thoughts:

 

1. Any self-reported data can be questionable.

2. A single case report (such as the one you quoted), even publsihed in the "prestigiuos" peer-reviewed journal such as NEJM does not constitute a conclusive finding. It at best suggestive. Almost all epidemiologists consider such case report to be the "weakest" epidemiological evidence to substantiate a casual relationship between an exposure and disease.

3. Even if the transmission of HCV between the two patients did occur due to the exposure to contaminated equipment, there are other possible interpretations of the results, e.g.

(a) the instrument was contaminated with HCV by the technologist and subsequent use of the equipment without proper sterilization could have introduced the virus into the patients;

(b) the instrument was contaminated with HCV from one patient (the source of the virus) but the viruses could have come from body fluids containing the virus (e.g. blood). It's not uncommon that certain medical procedures can damage the tissue to the extent that induces bleeding. In other words, the viruses did not originate from the fecal material;

© the transmission of HCV through such medical procedure is considered parenteral route (not fecal-oral route). The physical (e.g. skin/mucous membrane) and chemical (e.g. stomach acids and digestive enzymes) barriers are bypassed. If a virus can be spread efficiently by the fecal-oral route, it must be very resistant to those protective barriers and retain its infectivity after it has been ingested (e.g. thru' rimming). However, studies so far have not shown that HCV is such a virus. In contrast, Hepatitis A virus has been shown to be much more resistant.

 

The scientific evidence that is available so far supports the position of CDC, i.e. both HBV and HCV are transmitted by the percutaneous and permucosal, but not the fecal-oral, routes.

 

I do suggest vaccination for HAV and HBV. But the risk of transmission of HAV due to rimming is definitely significant that warrants immunization if someone is involved in active rimming. HBV, on the other hand, can be transmitted via body fluids (e.g. semen, blood and saliva) during sex and hence, vaccination against HBV is also a good idea.

 

Lastly, please don't forget that other infectious diseases (such as parasites) can be transmitted by rimming and many of them can not be prevented by immunization.

 

 

JT

[Guest pickwick]

>pickwick, you are just too fucking adorable for words. I

>mean, who doesn't love a smug, vile, pretentious faggot?

 

Have you met Dick Armey?

 

>You're just yummy!

 

It's nice of you to say so. I hereby forgive you for being such a shithead. As well as a gibbering, twitching, slack-jawed idiot.

[Guest pickwick]

>LOL, yes, I think we can count on that.

>

>I hadn't heard of that study -- thanks for passing that info

>on.

 

You're welcome. Information about the Italian study is available on a number of websites, including califnurses.org.

[Guest pickwick]

>Reg,

>

>I haven't read that report yet but the following are my

>thoughts:

>

>1. Any self-reported data can be questionable.

>2. A single case report (such as the one you quoted),

>even publsihed in the "prestigiuos" peer-reviewed journal

>such as NEJM does not constitute a conclusive finding. It at

>best suggestive. Almost all epidemiologists consider

>such case report to be the "weakest" epidemiological

>evidence to substantiate a casual relationship between an

>exposure and disease.

 

I am aware of the Worman paper also. Worman has taught at Columbia P & S and is one of the top liver men in the country. If he says there is evidence of this kind of transmission, that should be good enough to persuade anyone who cares about his health that this kind of activity is not safe. I believe that is the question the author of this thread asked.

[+ Lucky]

RE: Rimming - Is not safe?

 

You have convinced me. I will not rim any assholes named pickwick.

[Guest TruthTeller]

>I am aware of the Worman paper also. Worman has taught at

>Columbia P & S and is one of the top liver men in the

>country.

 

Where can this be found?

 

> If he says there is evidence of this kind of

>transmission, that should be good enough to persuade anyone

>who cares about his health that this kind of activity is not

>safe.

 

It's always bewildering to watch someone cede their reason and judgment to someone else, and choose to make life decisions based on blind faith. YOU: "If Worman says it, it's true and I follow Him and live my life according to His Word, regardless of how flawed his reasoning is; regardless of how many others conclude differently; regardless of how persuasive the reasoning is of those who disagree. WORMAN = TRUTH."

 

JT furnished extremely compelling challenges to the reasoning of the "study" on which you rely. All you can say is: "WORMAN says X; therefore, X, and I will live my life accordingly." That seems sad and I'm sad for you.

[Guest JT]

>PS. For those of you new to this, to avoid embarrassment

>you may want to try rimming out first on your favorite

>household pet. Of course it's easier and tastier if you own

>a great dane, much trickier with a neon tetra.

 

Trav,

 

But I heard from a very reliable source that you love your 101 dalmatians!

 

 

JT

[Guest JT]

>Actually, BG, the Hepatitis Foundation reports that a recent

>study in Italy shows that as many as 35% of those infected

>with HCV had infections traceable to sexual activity.

 

Exactly what kinds of sexual activities were reported to be responsible for HCV transmission in that study?

 

Sexual (vaginal/anal) intercourse?

Kissing?

Rimming?

etc...???

 

 

JT

[Guest JT]

>I am aware of the Worman paper also. Worman has taught at

>Columbia P & S and is one of the top liver men in the

>country. If he says there is evidence of this kind of

>transmission, that should be good enough to persuade anyone

>who cares about his health that this kind of activity is not

>safe. I believe that is the question the author of this

>thread asked.

 

You're of course entitled to making your own decision. Whether to rim or not (in addition to whether a person likes it) does depend on how much risk a person is willing to take.

 

My question is, "Did Worman actually state in the paper that HCV can be transmitted via the fecal-oral route and/or rimming"? If he did, I'd definitely love to read his paper. Otherwise, many well-known physician researchers publish case reports just for the sake of publication. They might be interesting reading but they're usually lightweight in terms of their scientific merits, especially in proving causation between exposure and disease.

 

 

JT

[Guest TruthTeller]

>My question is, "Did Worman actually state in the paper that

>HCV can be transmitted via the fecal-oral route and/or

>rimming"? If he did, I'd definitely love to read his paper.

>Otherwise, many well-known physician researchers publish

>case reports just for the sake of publication. They might be

>interesting reading but they're usually lightweight in terms

>of their scientific merits, especially in proving causation

>between exposure and disease.

 

Maybe you didn't read pickwick's post very carefully. He said this is Worman we're talking about. It doesn't matter why he concluded what he concluded, or what he said in doing so. That he decreed it means that's it true, and should not be questioned. It's Worman, a "top liver man"!!!!

[Guest JT]

>Maybe you didn't read pickwick's post very carefully.

 

Thanks for the "kind" reminder, TT. But nope, I don't think I did. Perhaps you didn't read his post carefully. Pickwick said,

 

If he (Worman) says there is evidence of this kind of transmission, that should be good enough to persuade anyone who cares about his health that this kind of activity is not safe.

 

Pickwick implied in his statement that Worman said HCV can be transmitted via the fecal-oral route and/or rimming. Yet Worman's paper only presented evidence that HCV can be spread by contaminated medical equipment (i.e. a breach of medical asepsis) via the parenteral route. That's why I asked him the question in the above post. Similarly, he quoted in another post that an Italian study reported 35% of HCV transmission can be attributed to sexual activity. However, he didn't specify what kinds of sexual activity were identified in the report and then jumped to the conclusion that they must include rimming. While it is recognized among the medical/scientific communities that HCV can be spread by anal/vaginal sexual intercourse, rimming is not considered a risk factor for HCV transmission. All I want is for Pickwick to clarify his statements and hopefully through such discussion, we'll be able to minimize misinformation regarding this topic.

 

 

JT

[Guest Tampa Yankee]

All I

>want is for Pickwick to clarify his statements and hopefully

>through such discussion, we'll be able to minimize

>misinformation regarding this topic.

 

 

Good luck!! I don't think Pickwicks come with a reverse gear, only two forward gears -- steady and ramming spead. Pity, after we have been agreeing so much on recent threads. The only times he gets in trouble is when he gets on his condecending high horse discussing 'prostitutes' or he gets cornered and his back up -- IMHO. Otherwise, he can be a pretty level headed guy. :-)

[+ Lucky]

RE: Rimming - Is it fun?

 

Who would have thought a thread on rimming could get so boring????

[Donnie]

You're exactly right. When pickwick is shown to be wrong (often), he chooses not to respond because he can't & instead switches to a new tangent and attacks again.

[Guest pickwick]

>You're exactly right. When pickwick is shown to be wrong

>(often), he chooses not to respond because he can't &

>instead switches to a new tangent and attacks again.

 

Are you talking to me, shithead? :-)

[Guest pickwick]

> All I

>>want is for Pickwick to clarify his statements and hopefully

>>through such discussion, we'll be able to minimize

>>misinformation regarding this topic.

>

>

>Good luck!! I don't think Pickwicks come with a reverse

>gear, only two forward gears -- steady and ramming spead.

>Pity, after we have been agreeing so much on recent threads.

> The only times he gets in trouble is when he gets on his

>condecending high horse discussing 'prostitutes' or he gets

>cornered and his back up -- IMHO. Otherwise, he can be a

>pretty level headed guy. :-)

 

I wish I could say the same about you. You became a tad hysterical in your recent bitch fest with Donnie. It doesn't take much to make you drop the "elder statesman" act, does it?

[Guest pickwick]

>>I am aware of the Worman paper also. Worman has taught at

>>Columbia P & S and is one of the top liver men in the

>>country.

>

>Where can this be found?

 

In the New England Journal of Medicine, as Reg said in his first post on the subject. Do you have amnesia?

 

>It's always bewildering to watch someone cede their reason

>and judgment to someone else, and choose to make life

>decisions based on blind faith. YOU: "If Worman says it,

>it's true and I follow Him and live my life according to His

>Word, regardless of how flawed his reasoning is; regardless

>of how many others conclude differently; regardless of how

>persuasive the reasoning is of those who disagree. WORMAN =

>TRUTH."

>

>JT furnished extremely compelling challenges to the

>reasoning of the "study" on which you rely. All you can say

>is: "WORMAN says X; therefore, X, and I will live my life

>accordingly." That seems sad and I'm sad for you.

 

I think you recently went through the same bullshit with Reg when you and he were discussing the effects of ecstasy, didn't you? To support his position he cited a specific study by a distinguished scientist, whom he named, and to support yours you cited absolutely nothing except your own prejudice in favor of taking drugs. Seems to be a pattern with you.

 

If the reputations of medical practitioners mean nothing to you then I assume the next time you become ill you will seek out a witch doctor and ask him to drive the evil spirits out of your body by shaking his rattle and chanting. Or will you choke down your own hypocritical blather and seek out the physician who has the best rep in the field you need, assuming you can get in to see him? My money's on the latter. People who blithely advise others to take risks are often far more careful when it comes to their own precious hides.

[Guest pickwick]

>Pickwick implied in his statement that Worman said HCV can

>be transmitted via the fecal-oral route and/or rimming. Yet

>Worman's paper only presented evidence that HCV can be

>spread by contaminated medical equipment (i.e. a breach of

>medical asepsis) via the parenteral route.

 

As Reg said, the Worman study in NEJC concludes that tranmission occurred anally. I neither said nor implied anything else.

 

>That's why I

>asked him the question in the above post. Similarly, he

>quoted in another post that an Italian study reported 35%

>of HCV transmission can be attributed to sexual activity.

>However, he didn't specify what kinds of sexual activity

>were identified in the report and then jumped to the

>conclusion that they must include rimming.

 

Sorry, but I stated no such conclusion. The Italian study, among others, refutes the statements of several posters on this board that sexual contact is not one of the risk factors for HCV. Those statements are plainly wrong, as you know.

 

 

>While it is

>recognized among the medical/scientific communities that HCV

>can be spread by anal/vaginal sexual intercourse, rimming is

>not considered a risk factor for HCV transmission.

 

I would be obliged if you could cite your source for the latter statement. I have never seen it in the literature.

 

>All I

>want is for Pickwick to clarify his statements and hopefully

>through such discussion, we'll be able to minimize

>misinformation regarding this topic.

 

My pleasure.

[Guest Tampa Yankee]

>I wish I could say the same about you.

 

You cannot really -- not even on a rare occasion??

 

You became a tad

>hysterical in your recent bitch fest with Donnie. It

>doesn't take much to make you drop the "elder statesman"

>act, does it?

 

Oh that was just good-natured fun and a little exercise. Donnie came out to play and I didn't want to disappoint.

 

...and I make no claim to the "elder anything", thank you very much.

 

:-)

[Guest pickwick]

>You cannot really -- not even on a rare occasion??

 

Check with me again the next time Haley's Comet is in town.

 

>Oh that was just good-natured fun and a little exercise.

>Donnie came out to play and I didn't want to disappoint.

 

I think it's admirable that you take your responsibility to be a bitch so seriously. That's rare these days. :-)

[Guest TruthTeller]

>As Reg said, the Worman study in NEJC concludes that

>tranmission occurred anally. I neither said nor implied

>anything else.

 

This is the inevitable time when Pickwick starts denying that he ever intended to argue exactly that which has been the only implication possible of everything he's said for the last 10 posts.

 

If you weren't trying to imply that HCV was transmissible through rimming:

 

(a) why did you bring up HCV in the middle of the discussion of the dangers of rimming?;

 

(b) why did you cite a study allegedly linking the transmission of HCV to colonoscopies in order to prove that HCV is sexually transmissible?; and,

 

© why did you cite this study in response to my original statement that there was no link between HCV and rimming?

 

>>However, he didn't specify what kinds of sexual activity

>>were identified in the report and then jumped to the

>>conclusion that they must include rimming.

>

>Sorry, but I stated no such conclusion. The Italian study,

>among others, refutes the statements of several posters on

>this board that sexual contact is not one of the risk

>factors for HCV. Those statements are plainly wrong, as you

>know.

 

What bullshit - see above. The idea that you weren't mentioning HCV in order to argue that it's a risk of rimming would come as a surprise to every fucking person who has responded to you in this thread who thinks that you were.

 

HEY PICKWICK -- DO YOU OR DO YOU NOT THINK THAT RIMMING ENTAILS A RISK OF HVC TRANSMISSION??