Tipping amounts

[Guest jsekamore]

There has been previous posts before concerning tipping escorts. Just wanted to know what is an appropriate tip for an escort. If any of you guys tip and the escort has provided good service, what do you consider an adequate tip?

[Guest HIker]

I am curious about this as well. Especially since I have set up a date with someone who quoted me a rate and then added "...this does not inlude a tip..." I have to admit feeling somewhat uncomfortable (I haven't said anything to the escort) and am unsure how to react. Since this is my first time hiring an escort I would like to know of others' experiences.

 

Hiker

[Losgatan]

Check the many other threads about this topic in the Lounge. The general concensus here seems to be:

 

1) Tipping an independent escort is generally not necessary. However some of us do tip if the escort provides a really good experience. Tipping also may help give you priority when scheduling a repeat visit.

 

2) It is appropriate to tip an escort hired through an agency. I generally add 15-20%.

 

3) Some clients prefer to give their escorts non-cash gifts as a special "thank-you."

[Guest MrB]

If he quotes you a normal rate and then without any prompting by you adds that he also expects to be tipped before you even see him... walk away. It's unlikely he'll show you a good time. My advice would be to find someone who will :-)

 

Have fun!

 

 

MrB

[Guest elwood]

Losgatans post regarding tipping is very sensible I think. I do not generally think that an escort should solicit a tip. I myself do tip escorts when the service has been good (which,fortunately for me,has most often been the case). I have never used an agency. If the escorts fee is reasonable, a tip of 15-25% shows that your were very pleased. Also,depending on the circumstances,I have brought escorts wine or flowers when the feeling struck me..almost like a "date",I guess. It varies depending on the escort. Also I must admit there have been a couple of escorts where the sky was the limit..thats how good they were.but generally, escort fees are high and some are very high.but you should only play this game if its worth it to you and,thanks to this site,the majority of escorts I have met (not ALL but most) have been well worth the fee and have also received a tip.

[Justice]

LAST EDITED ON Mar-26-01 AT 06:17PM (EST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Mar-26-01 AT 06:16 PM (EST)

 

1) The fact that the escort brought up the subject of a tip is not a good sign. I assume that he's been reviewed on this site?

 

2) I did my homework before I hired my first escort. (He worked for an agency.) The general consensus of the various tipping threads on this Board was that you should try to include a tip when you hire someone from an agency. Despite some initial awkwardness, I had a very good time and was therefore more that happy to leave a fairly generous tip. My last two "dates" were with guys who are not affiliated with an agency. They're both very nice guys who went out of their way to accommodate my schedule (I had to reschedule them both) and my needs. They also made sure that a good time was had by all, so I had no problem leaving a tip.

 

So all I can say is for you to play it by ear. If you have a good time then by all means include a tip.

 

Have fun!

[Guest swiftone]

I agree with all that has been said, Tipping should be up to the individual client. I too would be uncomfortable if the escort asked for or suggested a tip. I always tip if the experience has been good, the amount depends on how good!! I too have been fortunate in the escorts I have chosen and have given extra to show that I appreciated their concern for my satisfaction. The amount is or should be an individual choice. Personally I usually tip an extra $100 and up.

[CT Dick]

Well, well. $100 tips are not in my range.

I try to keep the rate at below $200.

As has been said before, a self-employed service provider, such as a lawyer, a hair-cutter, a mechanic, a dentist, etc. has already set his rate. Except for EXCEPTIONAL service, I stick to the rate.

Since an agency boy usually gets only 2/3 of the fee, a tip seems in order if the service was good.

I have never felt shorted by an escort I didn't tip in a previous session.

[Guest Traveler]

> As has been

>said before, a self-employed service

>provider, such as a lawyer,

>a hair-cutter, a mechanic, a

>dentist, etc. has already set

>his rate. Except for

>EXCEPTIONAL service, I stick to

>the rate.

 

I totally agree. Escorts set their rates, and are therefore paid what they're worth. This is not like a waiter, who's paid minimum wage, and is expected to earn his pay by his tips. In the waiter's case, the tip system ensures to management that the waiter pleases the customer, and, hopefully, get paid what he's worth.

In the escort's case, good service comes from the fact that the escort needs to provide it in order to maintain his client base and his fee. We have seen many examples of escorts who've provided excellent service, and have seen their rates go up accordingly (i.e. they give themselves a tip). An escort who provides bad service, conversely, makes less money, just as a lousy waiter makes less money.

Since escorts are paid well based on their ability, I generally don't think a tip is in order. Even in the case of the agency escort (the only agency I ever dealt with had a $50/meeting take on the fee), I feel the escort makes his choice in being in an agency. He accepts perhaps less money (not always the case) in exchange for the convenience of having the agency screen his calls and provide his advertising/marketing.

There are exceptions, of course. I understand that in the Netherlands, the escorts actually makes very little when they work for agencies and depend on tips. This is a well-known and well-advertized exception. Once, I hired an escort who was very wonderful and charged me only $80, since he was starting out. I felt his fee was too little and tipped him. Also, if an escort really went beyond the call of duty, such as staying with you longer and not charging, or perhaps fulfilling an unusual fantasy, a tip might be in order. In general, however, for the reasons I gave above, I feel that my repeat business and a nice review on this site are the tips a great escort should get.

[NY Observer]

Wow, I'm feeling really cheap! I think that in all my experiences with an escort, I've tipped one time, and that was when we were together for almost three hours on a one hour appointment. Of course, I hadn't brought enough money with me for even two hours, but felt that given that I had a great time, I should give a bit extra.

 

I almost always volunteer to take the guy to dinner (OFF THE CLOCK) before or after our meeting, I think it adds to the comfort level and getting to know the guy. I make sure they understand that saying no to my dinner offer has no bearing on whether or not I'll see them, it's just a good-will offer. I have on occasion bought inexpensive gifts for a person I see a bit more regularly.

 

I don't understand tipping $100, even for an overnight (and if an escorts asks me for a tip or suggests one, I DEFINITELY wouldn't give him one, that to me, is highly inappropriate behavior). I don't know of many people who bill at this rate. Even a doctor or lawyer, who probably bill at this rate or higher have to pay for other office staff, etc. Yes, I realize that the escorts have travel expenses, props that they need to buy, etc., but 200 bucks for an hour is nothing to sneeze at. Even in the case of an agency guy, they are making a lot more money per hour (or per day) than more than 90% of Americans. Enough is enough!

 

Wow, I sounded really cheap, didn't I? Maybe I should start tipping with quarters at the Gaiety? <g>

[Guest albinorat]

>

>I don't understand tipping $100, even

>for an overnight (and if

>an escorts asks me for

>a tip or suggests one,

>I DEFINITELY wouldn't give him

>one, that to me, is

>highly inappropriate behavior). I

>don't know of many people

>who bill at this rate.

> Even a doctor or

>lawyer, who probably bill at

>this rate or higher have

>to pay for other office

>staff, etc.

>Wow, I sounded really cheap, didn't I?<

 

Not at all. Is everyone here rich? Are people who are earners in the ordinary middle class (or a little less) excluded from hiring escorts?

 

I agree with everything NY Observer said, including that "professional" escorts are making per hour more than 90% of Americans. I would add that generally I don't see much evidence of additional or unusual costs for escorts -- my assumption is that those who travel shorter differences build in a cost for gas and time, and those who travel at the desire of the client have every expense paid for, travel expenses usually in advance.

 

I've also posted before and not gotten a response about what I consider "the new trade". Trade was what hustlers who were "straight" were called, but regardless of their orientation they charged to get a blowjob. I see a number of people who appear to fit this description on this site, and many more elsewhere. In the "old days" it was negotiable but fairly low -- less than $50. Now I see escorts charging $250 for the same thing (maybe they throw in a "massage" whatever that means in this context) and some on AOL and elsewhere try to get more than $300.

 

I guess some of these people do well; but I have to say I'm unwilling to pay to be a vacuum cleaner john, I need some kind of response and reciprocation. How much can be negotiated of course, and I have a "scene" which can accommodate a less sexually responsive escort but get me off.

 

So to NY Observer's post and most of these, I have to agree I'm surprised at the "tipping" notion. We all can think of exceptions -- someone who goes to unusual lengths to insure you have a good time -- someone who spends a lot more than an hour but only asks for the hour rate. I dislike agencies and have rarely had a good experience through one -- I was so astounded the times I "lucked out" I tipped the guy. I was less concerned that he wasn't making that much from the call, than that he had been very nice, not been told what to expect, and had been very accommodating and fun about it.

 

I think it's actually the escort's responsibility to decide on a fee that fits his needs, sense of self worth and the market. And that's what he should expect. Someone who regularly tips $100 more widens my eyes (I have to wonder why? Does the guy get off on paying? Is he insecure about buying to begin with? That would mean the "average fee" for him was $300 plus, on the lower end!)

 

Unless again, the escort does a remarkable job and is very generous in some way, I think the fee is it. And I have to suggest at least in NYC the fees strike me as usually too high for what happens.

 

Al

[Guest Joey Ciccone]

>I was so astounded the times I "lucked out" I tipped the guy....... he had been very nice, not been told what to expect, and had been very accommodating and fun about it.<

 

If a client doesn't get the above mentioned service at the very least from an escort, then they have no reason to tip. I like to think I deliver that and more every time. Yet most clients don't tip, which is fine. It's unnecessary.

 

>I agree with everything NY Observer said, including that "professional" escorts are making per hour more than 90% of Americans.<

 

This may be an accurate figure per hour, but how many escorts see 40 clients a week I wonder? Or even twenty clients? Or ten? The few escorts I know and have talked shop with say that over the course of a month they only average about 4 or 5 clients per week with maybe one of those an overnight. I myself only see three or four a week. Granted, these guys are freelancing in more suburban areas, all are at least twenty five (not 'agency boys',) and we're all in pursuit of other endeavers as well.

 

>I would add that generally I don't see much evidence of additional or unusual costs for escorts<

 

It's true there's no obvious overhead other than traveling (and the time spent doing so), but the less evident costs are sometimes the dearest in terms of mental fatigue and physical burnout (more evident on those looking "overworked".) It can be a fast life that can wear you down quick. It's criminal for one. The fear of loved ones finding out you're a 'whore' can gnaw constantly on the minds of some. And a lawyer or dentist may have a staff to pay, and they may have to kiss plenty of butt, but they'll never be asked to run over to some motel at the drop of a hat and lick a complete strangers asshole. Even a proctologist - regardless of his bedside manner - won't ever have to jump through that hoop.

Mind you, I'm not complaining. I like my job. Even without a tip I almost always feel compensated. I think clients should decide if they want to tip or not for themselves at the end of the encounter. If you had an exceptional time and you can afford it and you're just a generally giving kind of person, there's nothing wrong with giving an escort a few extra bucks or taking him to dinner or doing whatever suits the occassion. If tipping isn't your style, don't worry about it because it's true that escorts DO make a lot of money per hour and it all comes out in the wash. I just wish I could average $200 an hour AND 40 clients a week :-)

 

joey ciccone

http://www.manicpress.com/joey

[Justice]

>I just wish I

>could average $200 an hour

>AND 40 clients a week

>:-)

 

 

LOL. I like your style. HooBoy this man has GOT to host a chat!

[Matt_Vancouver]

<I've also posted before and not gotten a response about what I >consider "the new trade". Trade was what hustlers who >were "straight" were called, but regardless of their >orientation they charged to get a blowjob. I see a number of >people who appear to fit this description on this site, and >many more elsewhere. In the "old days" it was negotiable but >fairly low -- less than $50. Now I see escorts charging $250 >for the same thing (maybe they throw in a "massage" whatever >that means in this context) and some on AOL and elsewhere try >to get more than $300

 

Well where do I start with this one..."in the old days", well rents were cheaper, cabs were cheaper, condoms were cheaper, lube was cheaper, gas was cheaper, haircuts were cheaper, gym memberships were cheaper.....

ALL OF THE ABOVE ARE THINGS REQUIRED, IN MOST CASES, TO MEET YOUR NEEDS. Inflation my man, prices go up. I agree sometimes the rates are a bit outrageous, but expecting to find someone who is drug free, clean, hopefully disease free, and in relatively good shape, for 50$, is ridiculous.

If an escort were to charge that kind of rate, they would have to see more clients per day in order to maintain a standard of living, meaning less than satisfactory service for every client.

I'm no saying tipping is required, in some cases it probably definatly is NOT, but it is generally appreciated when it happens.

Other things to consider is if the escort is visiting your city, paying for thier own hotel, etc, they may charge a higher rate, to accomadate the extra expences (airfare, hotel, cabs...)

Yes we make more money /hour than most other occupations, but we also have no health benefits, no sick days, no paid holidays....

now I'm not looking for sympathy or anything, I just felt I needed to point out some of the things that were missing from this thread.

Matt(likes tips, with or without foreskin: )

http://go.to/mattsplace

matt_escort@yahoo.com

[Guest albinorat]

>

>Well where do I start with

>this one...<

 

Sorry to be a bitch but maybe with reading my post more carefully?

 

"in the old days",

>well rents were cheaper, cabs

>were cheaper, condoms were cheaper,

>lube was cheaper, gas was

>cheaper, haircuts were cheaper, gym

>memberships were cheaper.....<

 

And giving blowjobs without any reciprocation was cheaper. That's one point I was making. Another point I was making that a hustler who comes over, lays back, gets sucked, dries off and leaves, not only doesn't deserve a tip in my opinion but isn't worth $250 or more, and I stand by that opinion.

 

I assume as an "escort" you are reciprocal and interested in the client's pleasure not just walking out with as much for as little as you can get.

 

>Inflation my

>man, prices go up.<

 

Bullshit, my man. The whores who want a small fortune to get their dicks licked and have found that by calling themselves escorts they can get grossly exaggerated fees have nothing to do with anything but greed and a curious exploitation that goes on in today's gay scene.

 

>

>If an escort were to charge

>that kind of rate,<

 

Again, my man, maybe you should read what I wrote. An escort who really escorts by providing for the client's pleasure can charge well, and not lack for custom. The $50 figure was for "street trade" pretending to be "carriage trade" if you get my drift, my man, and of course that would be more today if it existed as such (but not $250).

 

>I'm no saying tipping is required,

>in some cases it probably

>definatly is NOT, but it

>is generally appreciated when it

>happens.<

 

I veered off from talking about tipping where I suggested as every one I think has, that unusually accommodating, accomplished and giving escorts deserve tips but tips oughtn't to be automatic or routinely expected. I segued into complaining about those who proudly advertise they do nothing but lie back and maybe climax.

 

>Other things to consider is if

>the escort is visiting your

>city, paying for thier own

>hotel<

 

My man, you sound defensive. An escort can charge what he pleases. Those who please clearly do business even at high rates. Those who have inflated ideas of what they're worth, I assume, find their clientele drying up (though I assume there will always be johns who like feeling put down, and will pay a lot for it).

 

I never suggested, no one has, that an escort was in charity work. Everyone understands that as escort who drives a distance to see a client will build that into his price; who is staying in a city in a hotel may charge more to cover costs and so on. That's just common sense.

 

Moreover an escort who sets his prices high presumably knows he's cutting off a certain number of clients and is content to do so. I certainly don't feel terrible because there are people I can't afford or because I can't afford over nights and so on. I'm actually not sure I'd enjoy an overnight and one reality of the escorting scene for a client is that there are always others... Meanwhile those who can make a lot, good for them, their lives are richer without me.

 

>Yes we make more money /hour

>than most other occupations, but

>we also have no health

>benefits, no sick days, no

>paid holidays....

>now I'm not looking for sympathy

 

No, my man? I am a freelance person of some years and even distinction with a ton of degrees. Know what? I don't have any of those things either. I've worked very sick, over major holidays and have had to struggle sometimes despite real achievements. I am definitely not looking for sympathy. I don't know if any of the many people like me exactly choose this kind of life -- you don't know going into it just how bad the bad times can be. But I didn't get out when I could have; so I guess I like the suspense and the craziness and the stress.

 

I have to assume the same about you and the many others who for a shorter or longer time, "escort". My life's a big adventure, though I don't get off that much. To a degree I'm paying for a freedom I wouldn't have otherwise and prefer it to safety. I have to assume we have more in common than not. Which is why I'm a little impatient with your misreading and some of your arguments.

 

Bottom line to all escorts, get what you can and good luck to you. Tipping is the client's prerogative and don't expect one. And I'm still curious about "trade" passing themselves off as "escorts".

 

Al

[adriano46]

Guys,

 

As I have said on a previous thread like this, and as I continue to practice...

 

While only once has an escort ever hinted at a tip (and then NOT received it), as I have had experience with escots working through agencies and/or houses in Europe, I nearly always offered a "tip" knowing that the agency or propriator of the house took from 40-60% of the fee (yes, even that high). Especially if one spent more than an hour with a guy, a tip would be considered mannerly (and most of these escorts were quite professional!).

 

Here in the States the rates are generally sky high compared to Europe (where one can have an escort for $150/hour and generally an overnight for $700). Having lived on BOTH sides of the big pond, I know that costs of living are not that different - at least not enough to set US rates so highly.

 

That said, I have been very fortunate (thanks in large part to this site, HOOBOY ;-) ) in trying to select good quality for cost, to be crass. And in 90% of the cases I have found that and then some, and so I do tip or consider also a dinner out, a night at the theatre or opera, staying at a nice hotel etc... as all in the price (and if the guy traveled, of course I add his taxi, railway or whatever fee).

 

I agree with what some have said about hustlers (a totally different category). I was stunned to read that their prices are almost equal to (if NOT equal to already) those of high class escorts (e.g. in NYC some asking for from $200 to $250 for what? a quick blow job and feel? And the guy himself is not all that squeeky clean nor even good looking? )

 

Yes, most of us clients are from the middle class earning bracket, and if we are still seeing guys, obviously we did not play in the dot.com stocks. We work hard for our money, save, and manage to sacrifice some things in order to be able to afford this diversion.

 

When the encounter proves to be exceptional, I do tip in order to let the escort know I appreciated his work - and in order to (as one other person once suggested) help him remember ME if and when I call again. It is the same as tipping in a good restaurant - the waiter will notice you and make sure your service is good (and so will the nice escort).

 

And let's admit it, guys, most of us who seek out and employ escorts are not running around with a little black book full of names and phone numbers of boyfriends or f... buddies either in our home town or in other cities with whom we can hook up with when the mood strikes. And more to the point, even if we did... would they look like (and be as good as) some of the guys we have had the privilege to meet and review here? If they did, we would never need escorts, would we?

 

Do what you feel comfortable with. If you can only afford the escorts fee, period, then pay that and don't feel guilty. Just don't abuse it either, asking for extra time or discounts or expecting him to be understanding and so flexible when you skip appointments etc...

 

Bottom line... mutual respect.

[Guest Kenny]

OK....BRIEFLY...HA HA

 

I thoroughly agree with NY Observer's comments. IF, and only IF, the encounter IS EXCEPTIONAL, a tip may be appropriate, especially, if escort works for an agency. Otherwise, I assume the service provided is what the generally outrageous prices are all about.

Now, as to Matt....(I love you dearly but disagree with you on this one):

"Yes we make more money /hour than most other occupations, but we also have no health benefits, no sick days, no paid holidays....

now I'm not looking for sympathy or anything, I just felt I needed to point out some of the things that were missing from this thread."

Guess what???that is what we call "SELF-EMPLOYMENT" And of course, you DEDUCT ALL YOUR EXPENSES on the appropriate form when you file your INCOME TAX.

[Matt_Vancouver]

Whoa calm down: ) sheesh you try to point out a few things and someone throws a fit, I'm sorry if I in anyway offended you albino, but I stand by everything I said, I never said anywhere that tipping was required, just that it was appreciated.

other things people don't realize, have you ever tried to apply for credit at a bank without a source of income...? "hello I'm an escort, I make lot's of money, can I get a credit card?"

there are things you don't see.

Now I don't want to upset you anymore than you already are, I wasn't attacking you, nor berating you by saying 'my man' that was just a phrase turn, sorry if it was taken in any other way.

Matt(god love him: )(shit disturber, and general rabble rouser)

http://go.to/mattsplace

matt_escort@yahoo.com

[Guest Consultant_online]

Especially since I

>have set up a date

>with someone who quoted me

>a rate and then added

>"...this does not inlude a

>tip..."

 

I can't remember any escort in my recent experience actively trying to solicit a tip, and if they did, I certainly would not offer one.

 

Let's separate agency guys from independents for minute: In the case of an agency escort, the fee is set by the agency and is the same for any of their guys. But is every agency guy worth the same? My analogy would be that in a restaurant you don't expect to pay the same for a lobster dinner or a hamburger, do you? Also, in a restaurant, you will sometimes find you have enjoyed a really fabulous dinner that greatly exceeded your expectations, no matter that it was an expensive or inexpensive place. How do you demonstrate your appreciation for the fine experience? Do you offer the restaurant owner more money? No, you tip the waiter who provided the excellent service. And, you can go back at a later date, of course, which is how you reward the restaurant owner for the quality of the food. I don't know what percentage of the fees the big city escort agencies are paying their people, but to show my appreciation for someone I really enjoyed spending time with I don't mind giving an agency guy $50 to $100 extra for themselves. Some of you will probably think that makes me nuts, and others will think me cheap. All I know is that the young men seem to really appreciate the gesture, and that is all that matters to me.

 

An independent escort sets his own rates at whatever he thinks he is worth in the marketplace. If I think he was worth more than that because the experience was particularly fine, I might make a small personal gift that fit the escort's interests - for example, a bottle of wine if he likes that sort of thing. Or a little housewarming present if I find that someone has just moved to a new place. But I would not leave a tip.

 

That's my two cents worth.

[adriano46]

Matt,

 

Good points again. The credit card issue (or getting credit at all at a bank, or applying for a credit rating to rent of a home, or having insurnce for medical check-ups) was very realistic. Just one other thing for us to keep in mind.

[Guest albinorat]

>Whoa calm down: ) >other things people don't realize, have

>you ever tried to apply

>for credit at a bank

>without a source of income...?

>"hello I'm an escort, I

>make lot's of money, can

>I get a credit card?"

>

 

>Now I don't want to upset

>you anymore than you already

>

 

Darling, I am not upset. You persist in misreading what I write. And then you keep suggesting that small inconveninces of the life you chose are tragic.

 

Ever hear of paying with cash? Ever hear of a "secured" credit card? Just go to your little bankie-poo and put some money in an account and get a card. Pay your bills on time for 6 months and the unsecured card offers will come flooding in. I've done it. I know.

 

Someone else mentioned being self employed and I mentioned being free lance, same thing. My first credit card came from an older lady who had a belief in me. She got one with a low limit in both our names. I paid the bills religiously and other cards flowed in my name alone. Maybe some of the clients who like you so much would help you out that way.

 

I understand that there are problems for escorts in income disclosure. But I also know escorts who actually have jobs (part time, temp or real) as "covers" to answer "official questions" about employment. If you're doing very well, there are various ways to shelter yourself from excessive scrutiny (it is not for me to advise you, but I have known some very successful escorts of both sexes in my life who never "got caught", paid taxes and were thought exemplary citizens).

 

Free lancers (the self employed) have all the problems you describe. And since they often are in it for their entire lives (not only while their sexual appeal is high), they keep having those problems. In NYC a landlord may not want to rent to a capable free lance person with a decent income because he/she can't gaurantee that income for the coming year. If you're 50 and have had a career and a life and have a decent credit report that's tough and insulting. But it's the way it is.

 

Meanwhile, I have limited sympathy for the trials and tribulations of escorts, especially, my dear, when they are self dramatizing.

 

I like some escorts very much and am grateful they are there, am happy to pay them and tip when they really are nice. I respect everyone I contact and am careful to negotiate activities and describe myself honestly in advance.

 

Many are semi-pro's, really doing something else for much of their time, but I've met a couple of full time pros who were great and worth every penny.

 

But in both cases they (and you) have chosen that life for however long. There is a down side and a certain risk, as there is for me as a client, and as there is for me in my own profession. I think one accepts both good and bad, tries to minimize the latter and has as good a time as possible.

 

Now maybe take a few breaths, forget about me and get tipped.

 

Al

[Bilbo]

I think that we might be missing the real question of the originator of this thread. As opposed to most thread on this general area which ask if tipping is required, a good idea, etc., this person asked a different question, one which hadn't really been asked before (which is getting a little rarer than we would like to admit). Although zero is a number, given the fact that the man decides to tip, just how big should it be. There have been two or three people actually on that subject, but have we really answered the question? And I won't be surprised if the answer is - Yes, we have. Because I've done a table session and a double guided meditation tonight. It feels late and I'm out of cookies.

[Guest jsekamore]

Thanks Bilbo. People seemed to have forgotten my original question. I saw a real hot guy yesterday. He was from an agency. The fee was $225 and I tipped him $50. Do you guys think this was too much or too little?

[Michael]

Sounds about right to me.

[Justice]

Sounds good to me. Especially if a good time was had by all. ;-)