hornyfrog

Thanks for saying that. I really appreciate the thoughtfulness of your reply. And I agree with you on the last point. Reflection shouldn’t turn into in action or cynicism. Ideally, it should just help us engage a bit more deliberately, in ways that feel comfortable yet still respectful to the local community. Wishing you well.

Rio gringo resident here. Oh, boy…here goes… The topic of favela tourism and its potential for exploitation is a hot one here in Rio. Adding that this is posted on sites that largely discuss gay sex tourism adds an uncomfortable layer — but an uncomfortable truth. On this thread, I don’t think either poster here is entirely right or wrong. There are valid points on both sides, but they’re largely talking past each other. I don’t know any poster history(ies) here, but let’s just remove any seeming personal animus that some might have toward each other and discuss plainly. Part of the disconnect might be that, in spaces just as these message boards (or in the straight men’s scene, in Facebook groups with men like “Passport Bros”), these kinds of conversations don’t ever really happen in a vacuum. Many men who travel to Brazil even partly for transactional sexcapades and spend time in saunas, hunt ads or do the adjacent sexually-charged scenes might also struggle sincerely with where genuine support ends and exploitation begins. That doesn’t particularly make anyone a saint or a predator, or a hero or a villain. It possibly reflects real attempts to navigate the asymmetries of economies, power, desire, and access — all in good faith. Because of this and because of some real, lived experiences, some clients might naturally be more cautious about or even suspicious of activities that blur lines between tourism, poverty, exploitation and the sexual economy, especially when “authentic local experience” narratives are attached to young men from more economically vulnerable communities. Ex.: years back, on one of the previous incarnations of these boards, there was a now pretty famous guy who posted about his Rio tour services company that targeted gay male sex tourist clients, and these young, virile male Brazilian tour guides were also openly advertised as offering sexual services to these clients. It’s obviously true that residents of favelas like Vidigal and Rocinha survive on very little money, like almost all favelados do, and that small amounts of money to us tourists and expats can matter a whole lot to them. At the same time, economic benefit alone doesn’t automatically make every comunidade tour or locally promoted experience ethical by default. The questions that actually matter are structural, rather than personal: • Who organizes the activity and who controls the narrative? • How is the money distributed, and how transparently? • What boundaries exist around sexualization, exploitation, photography, and access? • Does it strengthen community autonomy, or mainly serve outside onlookers’ (lookyloos’) curiosity — or even worse, normalize blurred lines that already make the locals uneasy? Declining a specific recommendation isn’t the same as refusing to support favela residents generally, just as participating doesn’t automatically confer any grander moral virtue. Even in forums like this one, it seems pretty reasonable for people to want clarity and safeguards, rather than just having hesitation or skepticism framed as indifference or some moral failure. However, it is worth noting that a case being made against exploitation and undue influence will be easily self-sabotaged if discussed with hostility and ego flexing. If we are being honest, conversations like this one are not just really about Vidigal, or any other favela. They are about uneasy guilt management among foreign men coming to Brazil and other developing nations, who sit at the intersection of wealth, desire, race, sex and power asymmetry. Many men, straight, gay and in between, resolve whatever discomfort they may have differently: Some by participation framed as solidarity. Some by refusal framed as ethics. Some by money as absolution. Some by mere intellectual distancing. When those strategies collide, conversations can turn ugly very fast — like what seems to have happened here (and elsewhere, like at the other board).

Yes, I know who he is. What is he proposing? You can send me a private message if you prefer.

I recently went to the new Sauna Python and enjoyed it. The setting / layout / architecture is beautiful (I do think it’s a bit too well-lit, in a place like a meat market, a bit more mood lighting works wonders). The staff was very kind and accommodating (even giving a tour to me as a first-time client). The GPs are somewhere on the level of the old Fragata. The GPs tend to hang out by the pool table and socialize amongst each other when not on the prowl for a programa. The shows downstairs consist of the usual drag and strippers — but some of the strippers were new faces to me. IMO, the quality as well as the quantity of GPs at Lagoa has decreased dramatically. There is still a difference between those at Lagoa and those at Python — but arguably, not that much. It’s a 10 minute ride on an Uber between the two saunas Lagoa and Python. It’s probably worth it to check out both saunas while there in São Paulo.

Several years ago, I relocated to Brazil from the USA. I received a temporary residency from investment but I could have also qualified for a retirement visa using my pension and investment income. A few years later, my residency was officially made permanent by the Brazilian government (equivalent of a green card in the USA). I’m a natural-born US citizen with Western European ancestry. Although I moved to Brazil for an early retirement of sorts (I still like to work and be productive), I fell in love with this country years ago and didn’t want to wait until full retirement to enjoy living here. In retrospect, seeing what’s now going on in the USA, my timing couldn’t have been any more perfect. Brazil is a major cultural and bureaucratic adjustment and especially challenging if you don’t speak and understand Portuguese. It’s definitely not for beginners! Living here is different from visiting / being a tourist. But there hasn’t been a day in these years that I have regretted my move here. I live in Rio de Janeiro.

I think this is most likely the case. A higher entrance fee for sauna boys for Réveillon (and Carnaval) was to be implemented but by the time Carnaval came, management wisely rolled it back. Entrance fee and suite rental increases for clients, however, remain.

Two different working boys just told me it’s now 40 reais for them to enter 117.

True. However, I was talking about working boys, not clients. There are not any 60+ year old garotos de programa at the saunas!

15 reais ($2.62 US) might not seem like a big increase from 35 to 50 reais to YOU as a foreigner / US citizen, but an increase from $35 to $50 is a whopping 42.86%! And 15 reais is about the price of a round-trip on Rio’s subway. According to the Brazilian Institute of Geography and Statistics (IBGE), the per capita household income in 2023 in Brazil was R$1,893 per month. That’s currently only $329 USD. The average Brazilian household is now 3 people. That means that daily, each Brazilian on average makes only 30.44 reais or $5.30 USD a day. More than half of Brazilians make less than the country’s federal minimum wage, which is currently R$1.518 a month ($264 USD). That entrance fee increase for garotos is half what the average Brazilian earns in a day.

Wow. That was 13 to 23 years ago! That policy, if it is ever was one, is no longer in practice. There might be one robe still available at each club but if it is, it’s for rent and placed on the bill. I have recently seen a male client with breasts (presumably transitioned) wearing a white bath robe. I didn’t ask if it was sauna-owned or client-brought. The upscale hetero equivalents to the gay garoto saunas in Ipanema and Copacabana make it a practice to adorn each client in a house robe upon arrival. The working girls do the honors. That would be a nice touch at the gay saunas for men — but I think it’s a stretch to get them to add the robes, much less get the boys to be cooperative and attentive like that. My suggestion would be to bring one to the sauna if you’re hoping to wear one, because it’s not likely that one will be around for you in 2025.

What’s “cynical” about my response, or the one that I was actually responding to? You have any empirical evidence that there are fat, 50+ year old garotos de programa of any race, color or ethnicity working at Club 117 or Point 202 in Rio? I’m a resident here. You say you’ve been here 12 times. When is the last time you’ve actually been inside a working boy sauna in Rio? The clients — we clients — are the out-of-shape, older schlubs — and with very few exceptions. And that transcends race. The median age of the clients in these Brazilian working saunas has got to be around 60 — at the bare minimum, 55. And that’s actually not a bad thing. It’s only bad if you think aging is a terrible thing. I happen to think aging sure beats the alternative! And who else is going to pay these boys bills? iPhones and nice new tennis shoes are expensive in Brazil — and they sure don’t buy themselves!

To be fair, they’re not the fat 50 year old black, Asian or Latino guys either.

It is far easier to do it just for the entrance than for consumables or even for room rentals. But I only suggest that the club entrance prices for clients become two-tier. I wouldn’t suggest trying to make any other prices like menu items or room rentals two-tier.

There’s a huge discussion about this very topic at that *other board* (I don’t know the rules about naming it or linking it, so I will refrain). My opinion on what should / should have been done at 117 (full disclosure: Im also a small business owner in Rio, a brick-and-mortar shop that’s been feeling the squeeze of inflation): 1. Keep the entrance prices for working boys / garotos the same. If an increase is absolutely necessary for club survival, then make it incremental, like 5 reais. That would’ve raised it from 35 to 40. And that would’ve been less than a $1 USD increase. But IMHO, 50 R entrance fees is just too much for working garotos. BTW, how much is the current entrance fees for garotos at São Paulo’s Lagoa? Anyone know? 2. For clients, make a two-tier entrance fee: those with Brazilian ID, keep the previous price. For those without or those with non-Brazilian ID, give them the elevated entrance rate. I don’t think locals who get paid in BRL and have always been the steady flow of clients (especially during low season) will be able to enjoy too many nights out at the saunas with these inflationary rates (especially if everything else, like suites, drinks and garotos’ prices, are also increased). However, the difference for tourists is only a few dollars — and if you’re traveling to another country with an emerging, developing economy for fun and squabbling over a couple of bucks, then sorry, but maybe you should just stay home. I can also understand charging a bit more for card purchases because the vendor most often gets charged for processing cards (it can be as high as 8%, but it’s usually about 3-4%). And then there’s the customers who could later challenge the charge with their banks — causing bank payment chargebacks, delays or even refusals. Imagine trying to do this with an international bank. (Every customer is NOT a good, honest broker!) 3. Regarding suite pricing increases, I think it may have gone from 70R to 77R. Not a large increase on paper, but the building amenities have not been improved in ages (unlike some of her competitors, like Lagoa or Point 202, which are also not perfect but have made some renovations). I would not mind a slight increase on room rates if the building owner and management used it to actually improve / beautify the rooms. It’s a tough business to maintain in a changing, internet / app world and an inflationary economy. Like many of us, I just want these saunas to stick around and thrive. My opinions.

I’m a resident here in Rio, and I find that at Club 117 and Point 202, about half to 60% of the clients are wearing towels and the other half to 40% are in their street clothes or disrobed down to nothing but shorts or undies. Maybe about 80 to 90% of the working boys are in towels and the rest are in street clothes, shorts or undies. I find that a lot of Americans (from the USA) especially tend to stay in their street clothes, and some of that is cultural. Most of my friends visiting from the USA tend to stay in their street clothes or at the most disrobe to shorts. Of course, those that actually use the steam room or showers drop down to towels. I haven’t really noticed any upward trend, but now that you bring it up, I’ll try to pay more attention! BTW, if you are a client who was actually mistaken for a garoto, then consider yourself one of the fortunate few! The large majority of us schlubs would not ever be mistaken for one of the working boys. 😃